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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 3:30:01 PM   
Red Prince


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Trying to figure out which Soviets to rail/move this impulse, I had to go back 7 pages to find my original post laying out the basic idea I had at the time for a defense:
quote:

The purple front lines represents the "speed bump" defenders, cheap units that are quick to build, that create irritating ZOC situations for the Germans.

The blue line represents the "primary front" defenders, the place where my strongest INF and some heavier divisions (particularly AT or AA) will try to make their stand. This is also where the Soviet FTR force should probably begin the war, since it is far enough from Stuka range, but close enough to defend important targets.

The yellow back line represents the "mobile" defenders, such as fast MOT, MECH and ARM units, which can be used for counter-strikes, as well as some of the slower HQs. This is also probably where my long-range LND should go, well out of the range of the German bomber and fighter forces.
-----


Somewhere upthread Steve agreed this was a reasonable defensive structure. Yay me!

Unfortunately, take a look at the "revised" version of that same structure below. Compare the two. Boo me!




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 1201
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 3:37:32 PM   
Red Prince


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For the sake of clarity, I removed the weather overlay in the above image. Blizzard, ice-age, and frostbite.

I'm finding it impossible to get things done right. I haven't even been able to get my speed bumps into position in the south, much less place units on either of the two "main front" defensive lines (in blue).

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 1202
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 3:43:55 PM   
rmdesantis


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I used to play WIF many years ago, but life got in the way (new job, moving far from friends, etc). I've been reading this forum for about the past 4 years eagerly awaiting MWIF (for PBEM) and I now religiously check this thread for the AAR posts. Please keep it up, it's well balanced (discussing not only strategy but future choices/consequences) and quite realistic. I don't care about bad setups or mistakes, frankly, because we all make them. What I am interested in is how you recover from them, and this AAR does a fine job discussing that. Excellent work.

Mike

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 1203
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 3:50:48 PM   
Red Prince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmdesantis

I used to play WIF many years ago, but life got in the way (new job, moving far from friends, etc). I've been reading this forum for about the past 4 years eagerly awaiting MWIF (for PBEM) and I now religiously check this thread for the AAR posts. Please keep it up, it's well balanced (discussing not only strategy but future choices/consequences) and quite realistic. I don't care about bad setups or mistakes, frankly, because we all make them. What I am interested in is how you recover from them, and this AAR does a fine job discussing that. Excellent work.

Mike


Thank you, very much, Mike.

Now . . . any ideas on how I can magically make 10 INF units move 4-5 hexes each in Blizzard conditions with only 5 Land Moves?
-----
Edit: Decided to set up a speed bump in Lvov, pull Timoshenko and his AA back toward Kiev, get that GARR heading to Leningrad, and moved another ART into Cernauti. I don't fully agree with the idea of giving it away for free. It's a forest hex (1/2 Tactical factors for enemy LND), a supply source, and it can help block the Rumanian advance . . . or the advance from Rumania (either way you look at it).

< Message edited by Red Prince -- 1/19/2012 4:06:09 PM >


_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 4:13:56 PM   
composer99


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I would rail all guns out of Bessarabia stat.

Unless the Germans have winterized forces, snow, storm & blizzard should make attacks on 2-unit stacks uncertain, which ought to help slow the Germans down if they go before the summer.

I will try to come up with more detailed suggestions based on post #1201 screenshot at lunch.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 4:18:44 PM   
rmdesantis


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Since you asked - To me, there's a difference between a desired soviet setup (which seems to be what you are proposing with your lines) and what will be feasible given an early German onslaught - As German, I've closed the med before but never was in a position to launch Barb before summer 41 so the Soviets had time to be in a reasonable (but never optimal) position to slow things down. I never opened another front in Persia, though, and that throws another wrinkle. There was a discussion earlier about pulling well back (in as orderly fashion as possible) and hold out until the US comes into the war (which will be soon); I think that if I were allied in this game and saw a soviet player on their heels I'd be hitting North Africa right away as aggressively as I could to force some distractions there (and if the US loses the force, so what? They'll make more). Part of this game is psychological (you've pointed this out on a number of occasions yourself) - even if it doesn't take a lot to defend a location, the temptation will be to overdeploy because it's hard to give up what you've spent time and resources to conquer. This may mean the soviets spend a lot of the war in Siberia, but with enough relocated factories they will be able to mount a reasonable counter attack in a year.

(in reply to composer99)
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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 4:39:01 PM   
Red Prince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I would rail all guns out of Bessarabia stat.

Unless the Germans have winterized forces, snow, storm & blizzard should make attacks on 2-unit stacks uncertain, which ought to help slow the Germans down if they go before the summer.

I will try to come up with more detailed suggestions based on post #1201 screenshot at lunch.

Actually, part of the reason I moved the ART into Cernauti is to have the opportunity to rail it out if I have time. Previously it was sitting in a clear hex with no rail line. Very bad, indeed.

Other things I did:
Used up an HQ and 3 TRS to get that convoy pipeline back up and running for the CW (better hope this is at least a 4 impulse turn!)
Took Centuur's suggestion to get the very long range Soviet LND within range of Mosul.
Scratched my head and wondered how to get those Soviet grunts into "sufficient" positions, since "optimal" just isn't going to happen.

So, we move on to impulse #9 and a new weather roll. It's not terrific, it's not terrible. It's just bad and mostly bad for the Soviets.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 1207
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 6:12:08 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

For the sake of clarity, I removed the weather overlay in the above image. Blizzard, ice-age, and frostbite.

I'm finding it impossible to get things done right. I haven't even been able to get my speed bumps into position in the south, much less place units on either of the two "main front" defensive lines (in blue).

Prioritize. The most forward units need to be in as close to optimal as possible. Those behind them just vaguely close. When Germany DOWs the USSR, all the units will be able to move freely (unless some bombs fell on their heads). That means you will be able to form up your secondary lines without much trouble, with the ever present caveat that there are enough warm bodies (or even cold ones if this happens in winter).

So, which hexes in the front line have too many or too few units? Of those, which ones are going to require the most moves to rectify? That's where you spend your 5 land moves and 1 rail move.

If it looks like the attack through Persia is going to happen, starting rebasing a fighter and a short range bomber to that front. The USSR's short range air units are pretty much useless in the first turn of the onslaught in the west. They can't fly at all in the first impulse and the Germans advance so quickly that if they try to fly early in the turn they are likely to be overrun while they are disorganized.

I would give serious thought to taking some of the worst air units and moving them to the reserve pool, saving the pilots for better units that arrive later (perhaps a year in the future). But if the Germans have a long range ATR with a paratroop, the stubby winged fighters (range of 3!) can cover some crucial cities far in the rear.

< Message edited by Shannon V. OKeets -- 1/19/2012 6:13:26 PM >


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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 6:18:50 PM   
composer99


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The crappy FTR are also good for posting on hero cities (Kiev, Vitebsk, Odessa & the like) to attempt to delay the German attacks by fighting off ground strikes. This costs the Axis air missions to bring up both FTR and LND in range, uses up Axis FTR which could rebase to keep up with the forward lines (to protect against USSR ground strikes). It may also cost the Axis an impulse or two extra to reduce the city if they wait to attack until they fire off a second round of ground strikes.

On the other hand it pretty much guarantees 2 bp lost for the pilot (the crap FTR being free at setup and best off scrapped upon destruction) which the USSR is very unlikely to make good on in 1941 vs no losses if the FTR are based in the rear or pulled off the map.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 6:45:21 PM   
Red Prince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

For the sake of clarity, I removed the weather overlay in the above image. Blizzard, ice-age, and frostbite.

I'm finding it impossible to get things done right. I haven't even been able to get my speed bumps into position in the south, much less place units on either of the two "main front" defensive lines (in blue).

Prioritize. The most forward units need to be in as close to optimal as possible. Those behind them just vaguely close. When Germany DOWs the USSR, all the units will be able to move freely (unless some bombs fell on their heads). That means you will be able to form up your secondary lines without much trouble, with the ever present caveat that there are enough warm bodies (or even cold ones if this happens in winter).

So, which hexes in the front line have too many or too few units? Of those, which ones are going to require the most moves to rectify? That's where you spend your 5 land moves and 1 rail move.

If it looks like the attack through Persia is going to happen, starting rebasing a fighter and a short range bomber to that front. The USSR's short range air units are pretty much useless in the first turn of the onslaught in the west. They can't fly at all in the first impulse and the Germans advance so quickly that if they try to fly early in the turn they are likely to be overrun while they are disorganized.

I would give serious thought to taking some of the worst air units and moving them to the reserve pool, saving the pilots for better units that arrive later (perhaps a year in the future). But if the Germans have a long range ATR with a paratroop, the stubby winged fighters (range of 3!) can cover some crucial cities far in the rear.

The warm bodies thing is the one that worries me most. Reserves and MIL units wil help a lot there. The most problematic factor here has been the weather. It's been terrible for 2 turns now, and trying to use the rail lines has helped some, but not as much as I'd like.

I'm trying to make sure all of my Artillery Divisions get into a hex that will not leave it solo, trying to get those speed bumps in place, trying to get my slow HQs far enough back to survive, and I'd really love to get the MTN unit into a city to rail to Tabriz. That last part may give me problems if this turn ends too quickly.

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 6:52:07 PM   
Red Prince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

The crappy FTR are also good for posting on hero cities (Kiev, Vitebsk, Odessa & the like) to attempt to delay the German attacks by fighting off ground strikes. This costs the Axis air missions to bring up both FTR and LND in range, uses up Axis FTR which could rebase to keep up with the forward lines (to protect against USSR ground strikes). It may also cost the Axis an impulse or two extra to reduce the city if they wait to attack until they fire off a second round of ground strikes.

On the other hand it pretty much guarantees 2 bp lost for the pilot (the crap FTR being free at setup and best off scrapped upon destruction) which the USSR is very unlikely to make good on in 1941 vs no losses if the FTR are based in the rear or pulled off the map.

Right now the German FTRs are all completely and utterly in the wrong places. If I get another impulse this turn (unlikely) I might try an Air Action, since it's taken all my Air Missions so far (10) to get my LND to the front lines. That's mostly due to the short N/D '40 and almost certainly short J/F '41 turns leaving the Germans with too many planes with practically no range at all . . . all trying to get all the way across Europe.

What this means for the Soviets is that they can maybe afford to wait an extra turn before putting those terrible FTRs into the Reserve Pool. If no new FTR units are built, though (gonna need those MIL ASAP), the Pilots will have nothing to fly.

We'll have to see how this turn goes and how next turn begins, I guess. The one that I know I can take off the map is the one in Leningrad . . . a 2-factor FTR . . . what a joke that is!

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to composer99)
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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 7:15:02 PM   
Red Prince


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You ask, I deliver.

In the image below, you'll notice that 2 of the German big guns have vanished from Gabes. Where are they? During impulse #1 they were picked up by the Italian TRS. After the Allied impulse #5 the weather remained terrible, meaning poor conditions for an attack on the units in the Sinai. So, I took another Naval impulse, not because I needed a bunch of Naval moves, but because it let me move those loaded TRS to Egypt . . . where HQ-I Balbo could reorganize them both. On the off chance that the Axis gets a 3rd impulse this turn (hey, it happened in 1940), those transports can go back to pick up Guderian and his MECH companion. When it's time to return to base at the end of the turn, they'll head for Beirut.
-----
As a side note, I think the region around Gibraltar is simply jinxed. For the 2nd straight impulse, Italy had overwhelming force in Cape St. Vincent (the 4 Box) but failed to see any enemy ships there to crush.




As for the German war effort, they are about ready to begin the assault on the Soviets. The Persian campaign isn't set up yet, but should be soon. Everywhere else, the troops are just praying for the cold winter to end. With a +2 weather Modifier, M/A '41 might start out looking very nice . . . or it might not. If it doesn't, I think I'd hope for a short turn and try to start the war in M/J '41 instead. This is mostly to help co-ordinate with Japan.

Japan . . . if they get one more impulse this turn, they'll be almost set to start making war in style. Still, having M/A '41 to finalize the details would be nice, especially if the USA isn't getting extra help with its Entry chits. Besides, the weather is slightly more co-operative then.

The United States is so close to war at this point, anyway, that only a lucky USE roll will prevent a German DOW on the USSR from tipping the scales over to War Appropriations. If the USA chooses to begin the Oil Embargo this turn, it might change things, but I'm trying to figure out the best combinations of DOWs for the best Axis results. Also, Japan is slowly getting its units in position to attempt the conquest of China. I very nearly tried a low-odds attack this impulse (using a lot of Ground Support), but decided it might screw things up if M/A '41 starts with bad weather in the Arctic.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Red Prince -- 1/19/2012 7:16:16 PM >


_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

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Post #: 1212
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 7:25:50 PM   
Centuur


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What are the goals of the USSR in defending against the Germans? It is to preserve the Caucasus (oil), to preserve Murmansk (with he railed factories there) and the central Siberian part of the country (where all other railed factories need to go). In addition to this, the USSR should defend in such a way that as much factories as possible are going to be pulled out towards the central Siberian region and two need to go to Murmansk (yes, that hard pressed CW should get a convoy chain into Murmansk. Those decadent British should come to the aid of the comrades. Signed, Uncle Joe...).

If you lose either the Caucasus or Central Siberia, it's over for the USSR.
No talk of defending Moscow here. Moscow isn't important. Leningrad is a good place to defend and Sevastopol (beware of a German Para taking the place, a unit should be in the city if the PARA appears in the Rumanian port nearby) and Rostov too, so they get garrisoned while your retreat asking for it. The rest of the USSR is probably going to get overrun by the Germans. It's going to be a reality in this game, because of Mr. Chamberlain staying too long in office...

Now, if you look at the lines, you are faced by one attack, which must not succeed: that's the one coming from Persia. Luckily the unified map gives the USSR good defensive positions (nice touch, all those Alpine and Lake hexsides). You need 6 units all with a minimum of 5 combat factors in the hexes Steve proposed, put Zhukov in the woods behind the mountains for supply reasons. Get one or two FTR's in position too (not in the same hex as Zhukov please) and a LND and you should be able to hold out against German Armor fighting in the mountains (oh how nice, tanks against infantrymen in the mountains...), especially since it looks like the Germans are short of FTR's in the area. Also: the USSR still got a one and probably two turns to get those units into positions, so no problem there. Strip the rest of Persia of any INF units, with the exception of Teheran (keep one INF there too).

Things are looking as well as to be expected in the northern Russia area. You've done the best you can.

Odessa looks screened. So that means that factory is going to get railed away. The only units in a bad position now are those around Cernauti and those in the southern area of the Pripjat Marshes, aren't they? So slowly start moving them backwards, out of Eastern Poland (Lvov is a trap and only if you put two white prints there, you will have a defense of 6, since it isn't a supply source. If you want a speedbump there, use one lousy INF. But even then, the Germans will probably move around it and kill it after groundstrike). Even in blizzard, the units around Cernauti can walk towards Chisinau and stay in supply the whole time.
Sure Blizzard slows things down, so do the five moves maximum, but Blizzard also means no German attack.

The Germans aren't ready either, are they? In Blizzard: they also walk very, very slowly towards you. No: blizzard, storm and rain are the friends of the Soviet Union in this stage of the game. Snow and Fine weather: those are things you don't want to see at all, since those give the Germans the opportunity to attack you.

And finally: how many fast moving stacks can the Germans gather against the USSR in Ukraine or the Baltics/Minsk area? Two, three? The other two are moving towards Persia and will need 3 HQ's immobile to provide supply for them. How nice that is? That means you can count out the maximum terrain they can gain on you. The Germans will have to make a choice where to attack (they probably will do so in the Ukraine, to attempt to move as fast as possible towards the Caucasus...
The Germans are also suffering from too few units at this moment, since they are also early in beginning the attack. Yes, the USSR will need to throw all kind of INF/GAR/MIL units in cities in the path of the Germans to stall him. Sure: the Germans are going to move and will probably grab the total Ukraine (except Sevastopol), move into Stalingrad, take Moscow. So what: that's not going to help him at all, provided you get the expensive MECH/ARM/HQ's and airforce to the area's where you can put up a good defense, because of very long German lines and of very good mountains to defend in.

You have a nice gearing limit on INF units. Keep it that way, but keep in mind the Germans might not DoW you in M/A if the winter is going your way (that is a lot of blizzards, storms and rains which keep pouring down onto the Russian and Polish border area's, making it impossible for the Germans to do anything usefull...).

Do not despair. War is just starting and the comrades commanded by Zhukov will stop a whole German Panzer army in Persia. Propaganda? Perhaps. Impossible: not al all...

Be positive...




< Message edited by Centuur -- 1/19/2012 7:38:55 PM >


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Peter

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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 7:39:06 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Remember that the reserves arrive disorganized. They won't be able to move and they will give bonuses to the German attacks. Leningrad is a good place to occupy with reserves. I usually use Minsk and Pskov as speed bumps with a single reserve unit each. You will find that you have a lot of reserves to place on the map but not many good hexes for them. They are very useful in the second turn of the attack, but not so much so during the first turn.

_____________________________

Steve

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(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 1214
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 7:40:27 PM   
Red Prince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

What are the goals of the USSR in defending against the Germans? It is to preserve the Caucasus (oil), to preserve Murmansk (with he railed factories there) and the central Siberian part of the country (where all other railed factories need to go). In addition to this, the USSR should defend in such a way that as much factories as possible are going to be pulled out towards the central Siberian region and 2 need to go to Murmansk (yes, that hard pressed CW should get a convoy chain into Murmansk. Those decadent British should come to the aid of the valous comrades. Signed, Uncle Joe...).

If you lose either the Caucasus or Central Siberia, it's over for the USSR.
No talk of defending Moscow here. Moscow isn't important. Leningrad is a good place to defend and Sevastopol (beware of a German Para taking the place, the unit should be in the place if the PARA appears in the Rumanian port nearby) and Rostov too, so they get garrisoned while your retreat asking for it. The rest of the USSR is probably going to get overrun by the Germans. It's going to be a reality in this game, because of Mr. Chamberlain staying too long in office...

Now, if you look at the lines, you are faced by one attack, which must not succeed: that's the one coming from Persia. Luckily the unified map gives the USSR good defensive positions (nice touch, all those Alpine and Lake hexsides). You need 6 units all with a minimum of 5 combat factors in the hexes Steve proposed, put Zhukov in the woods behind the mountains for supply reasons. Get one or two FTR's in position too (not in the same hex as Zhukov please) and a LND and you should be able to hold out against German Armor fighting in the mountains (oh how nice, tanks against infantrymen in the mountains...), especially since it looks like the Germans are short of FTR's in the area. Also: the USSR still got a one and probably two turns to get those units into positions, so no problem there. Strip the rest of Persia of any INF units, with the exception of Teheran (keep one INF there too).

Things are looking as well as to be expected in the northern Russia area. You've done the best you can.

Odessa looks screened. So that means that factory is going to get railed away. The only units in a bad position now are those around Cernauti and those in the southern area of the Pripjat Marshes, aren't they? So slowly start moving them backwards, out of Eastern Poland (Lvov is a trap and only if you put two white prints there, you will have a defense of 6, since it isn't a supply source. If you want a speedbump there, use one lousy INF. But even then, the Germans will probably move around it and kill it after groundstrike). Even in blizzard, the units around Cernauti can walk towards Chisinau and stay in supply the whole time.
Sure Blizzard slows things down, so do the five moves maximum, but Blizzard also means no German attack.

The Germans aren't ready either, are they? In Blizzard: they also walk very, very slowly towards you. No: blizzard, storm and rain are the friends of the Soviet Union in this stage of the game. Snow and Fine weather: those are things you don't want to see at all, since those give the Germans the opportunity to attack you.

And finally: how many fast moving stacks can the Germans gather against the USSR in Ukraine or the Baltics/Minsk area? Two, three? The other two are moving towards Persia and will need 3 HQ's immobile to provide supply for them. How nice that is? That means you can count out the maximum terrain they can gain on you. The Germans will have to make a choice where to attack (they probably will do so in the Ukraine, to attempt to move as fast as possible towards the Caucasus...
The Germans are also suffering from too few units at this moment, since they are also early in beginning the attack. Yes, the USSR will need to throw all kind of INF/GAR/MIL units in cities in the path of the Germans to stall him. Sure: the Germans are going to move and will probably grab the total Ukraine (except Sevastopol), move into Stalingrad, take Moscow. So what: that's not going to help him at all, provided you get the expensive MECH/ARM/HQ's and airforce to the area's where you can put up a good defense, because of very long German lines and of very good mountains to defend in.

You have a nice gearing limit on INF units. Keep it that way, but keep in mind the Germans might not DoW you in M/A if the winter is going your way (that is a lot of blizzards, storms and rains which keep pouring down onto the Russian and Polish border area's, making it impossible for the Germans to do anything usefull...).

Do not despair. War is just starting and the comrades commanded by Zhukov will stop a whole German Panzer army in Persia. Propaganda? Perhaps. Impossible: not al all...

Be positive...

The only thing I completely disagree with is railing factories to Murmansk. If it must be done, they should go to Archangel. Even that is a risk. The reason I disagree with Murmansk is that during the first impulse of war, there is now a Ski Division in Finland ready to cut that rail link. No railing to Murmansk, I'm afraid.

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 1215
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 7:44:05 PM   
Centuur


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By the way: if next turn, the Allies get the initiative: move first as the Allies. That gives the Soviets more time to prepare... Same for the turn after that...

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Peter

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Post #: 1216
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 7:45:19 PM   
Red Prince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Remember that the reserves arrive disorganized. They won't be able to move and they will give bonuses to the German attacks. Leningrad is a good place to occupy with reserves. I usually use Minsk and Pskov as speed bumps with a single reserve unit each. You will find that you have a lot of reserves to place on the map but not many good hexes for them. They are very useful in the second turn of the attack, but not so much so during the first turn.

The only reserves I plan on placing in forward positions are the 7-4 Siberian INF and the 7-4 INF, both in Chisinau. That's 14 factors that can be attacked from 2 hexes maximum until the other nearby stacks are dealt with, and I don't think the Germans have the forces to overcome that on the first turn of war.

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Post #: 1217
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 7:52:39 PM   
Red Prince


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A quick update:

As the Axis side, part of me was hoping the turn would end after that impulse. Yes, it means another +1 on the Initiative Track for the Allies, but it also would have left the Soviets in trouble and the CW without its convoys in the Faeroes Gap. That would have been worth it, I think. The other part of me wants to keep the initiative where it is.

And yet another part of me, knowing now that the turn did not end, wants it to go on for a 5th impulse. Again, that means +1 to the Allies, but it also means getting 2 more German troops from North Africa to Beirut. Not to mention the possibility of getting fighters to the front lines, or part way there.

Interesting question (to me, anyway): How badly do the Allies want the 1st move next turn? Do they want it badly enough to Re-Roll the Initiative if they lose?

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Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
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Post #: 1218
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 7:53:56 PM   
composer99


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

Trying to figure out which Soviets to rail/move this impulse, I had to go back 7 pages to find my original post laying out the basic idea I had at the time for a defense:
quote:

The purple front lines represents the "speed bump" defenders, cheap units that are quick to build, that create irritating ZOC situations for the Germans.

The blue line represents the "primary front" defenders, the place where my strongest INF and some heavier divisions (particularly AT or AA) will try to make their stand. This is also where the Soviet FTR force should probably begin the war, since it is far enough from Stuka range, but close enough to defend important targets.

The yellow back line represents the "mobile" defenders, such as fast MOT, MECH and ARM units, which can be used for counter-strikes, as well as some of the slower HQs. This is also probably where my long-range LND should go, well out of the range of the German bomber and fighter forces.
-----
[Image snipped for clarity - composer99]

Somewhere upthread Steve agreed this was a reasonable defensive structure. Yay me!

Unfortunately, take a look at the "revised" version of that same structure below. Compare the two. Boo me!





I should like to offer some specific recommendations regarding the USSR dispositions, with the understanding that time is short for the USSR and at least one impulse has elapsed since this screenshot was posted (meaning some movement has occured).

General Notes
I'm assuming the Germans end up having to launch Barbarossa in May/June in the event weather & short turns prevent them from being lined up in March/April. Based on the current thread on weather & average turn length, there will be on average approx. 9 impulses (so if the Allies go first the USSR gets 5 and the Germans get 4).

Baltic States
The capital cities of these minors are not primary supply sources for the USSR. They are also easily bypassed (meaning any forces there can be put out of supply with ease).

As such, I recommend:
- a single-unit speed bump in Kaunas to slow the Germans down.
- two units in Riga to keep the single German stack that can reach there during surprise honest, with one of the units to withdraw to, say, Pskov during the following USSR impulse (unless you are willing to make the effort to keep Riga supplied by sea, which I doubt the USSR will want to do early in a Barb).

East Poland
East Poland has no primary supply for USSR forces, so what you are trying to do here is waste 2 Axis impulses just getting through East Poland, or half of their average # of impulses.

My recommendations are:
- cheap single units in Brest-Litovsk and Lvov as these are easily isolated
- 1 unit in Vilna and 1 unit in the forest southwest of it. The unit in the forest will keep the Germans away from Vilna during the surprise impulse (coupled with the unit in Brest-Litovsk) and Vilna will need to be cleared out during the 2nd impulse, although with Kaunas gone it will be put out of supply easily (if you think the Germans will not attack Minsk in impulse #2 the Vilna unit can retreat if it is able)
- 2 units in the forests just south of the Pripet Marshes at the border of E. Poland and the Ukraine to keep the Germans honest. One or both can be withdrawn during the USSR impulse after the German surprise impulse unless there is a viable threat vs Kiev which they could avert by staying in place.

Bessarabia & Odessa
Bessarabian cities are primary supply sources for USSR units, so things are looking a bit better here.
Your defence will depend on the strength of the Axis land & air forces.

If the Axis forces could conceivably defeat 2- or 3-unit stacks in Cernauti and Chisinau on the surprise impulse, then both cities should have single cheap units to defend them.

The forces there at present don't quite look up to that task (1 HQ and 4-5 corps), so if it stays that way, I suggest the USSR doing the following:
- 1 cheap unit in Cernauti
- strong force in Chisinau
- 1 cheap, 4-factor unit in the hex southwest of Chisinau - unless my maths are off this unit cannot be overrun even during the surprise impulse so it will keep Chisinau from being encircled
- the force in Chisinau, unless it is all disorganized, can withdraw except for another cheap speedbump

Odessa is a factory city (even after the factory gets railed out) and should be strongly defended as a hero city.

The Ukraine
Not much value in putting units on the western side of the Dneipr except in Dnepropetrovsk and Kiev (although these two are obvious candidates for hero cities).

If it would make the difference of an impulse or two before the Germans can attack Kiev, a 4-factor unit which was positioned such that it could not be overrun (especially while the Germans have not yet taken Odessa) might be worth placing out in the clear as a speedbump.

IMO the USSR's aim is to keep the Germans at bay from the Dneipr until July/August and make them spend most of that turn getting across the river.

North of the Pripets
In this sector, the USSR has good supply and terrain to help it out.

I recommend:
- Pskov, Minsk and Vitebsk as hero cities
- speedbumps as required in the forests west of Vitebsk or in between Vitebsk and the Pripets to slow down the advance
- a strong line from Gomel, along the east side of the Dneipr to the north (with a strong blitz stack in the Mogilev riverbend) up to Smolensk, with cheap units in the swamps to ZoC germans trying to get around to encircle Smolensk

Here, again the USSR's objective, IMO, is to keep the Germans from reducing Pskov and Vitebsk until the start of July/August, and forcing them to waste time getting to the Smolensk line such that perhaps they don't even get across until the fall.

Obviously, given the circumstances of the additional Caucasus front, this is to be undertaken with (one hopes) an Allied intervention in Spain or France during the summer forcing the relocation of German ARM/MECH (and in particular Stukas) to the Western Front.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 1219
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 7:59:03 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Remember that the reserves arrive disorganized. They won't be able to move and they will give bonuses to the German attacks. Leningrad is a good place to occupy with reserves. I usually use Minsk and Pskov as speed bumps with a single reserve unit each. You will find that you have a lot of reserves to place on the map but not many good hexes for them. They are very useful in the second turn of the attack, but not so much so during the first turn.

The only reserves I plan on placing in forward positions are the 7-4 Siberian INF and the 7-4 INF, both in Chisinau. That's 14 factors that can be attacked from 2 hexes maximum until the other nearby stacks are dealt with, and I don't think the Germans have the forces to overcome that on the first turn of war.

Don't put those high factor reserve units there. They are going to get disorganised and right after the factory has left Odessa, all units still alive in the area should withdraw to the east. Units which are disorganised can't move and will die, or get isolated in a useless position. The high factor units should go into Kiev/Dnjepropretovsk (what a name for a city to write), so they can participate in the defense of the river line.

On rerolling for initiative: don't do so. The +1 or +2 should do the trick. If not, there's still the chanche of bad weather appearing...

< Message edited by Centuur -- 1/19/2012 8:01:35 PM >


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Peter

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Post #: 1220
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 8:02:06 PM   
composer99


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March/April weather is a crap shoot.

Personally I would make the Axis go first if I win initiative as the Allies in March/April.

Sure, they might roll really high (esp. with a +2 weather mod) to start the turn off but I think you need an 8 or higher to get fine weather in the Arctic, and once the modifier goes away the Arctic weather (where most of the USSR is except for the Caucasus and southern Ukraine) will most likely go bad again.

Better to have the strong initiative for the two summer turns.

Edit: Also, I would not ask for a re-roll as the Allies if the Axis wins, for the reasons posted above.

< Message edited by composer99 -- 1/19/2012 8:03:56 PM >


_____________________________

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Post #: 1221
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 8:08:05 PM   
Orm


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I would go first as Allies in Mar/Apr but I would not make a reroll to do so.

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Post #: 1222
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 8:24:58 PM   
paulderynck


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Joined: 3/24/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

The crappy FTR are also good for posting on hero cities (Kiev, Vitebsk, Odessa & the like) to attempt to delay the German attacks by fighting off ground strikes. This costs the Axis air missions to bring up both FTR and LND in range, uses up Axis FTR which could rebase to keep up with the forward lines (to protect against USSR ground strikes). It may also cost the Axis an impulse or two extra to reduce the city if they wait to attack until they fire off a second round of ground strikes.

On the other hand it pretty much guarantees 2 bp lost for the pilot (the crap FTR being free at setup and best off scrapped upon destruction) which the USSR is very unlikely to make good on in 1941 vs no losses if the FTR are based in the rear or pulled off the map.

Not in an oil game. A stored oil is too precious to put in a hero city for the Germans to capture or strat bomb (after the FTR gets flipped) and then giggle. Put it in a hero city and it flys once. You can't even re-org it to harvest the pilot.

_____________________________

Paul

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Post #: 1223
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 8:34:38 PM   
Centuur


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Well. It looks like Composer99 and I do not agree on the USSR setup. I wouldn't want to defend Odessa, since the USSR is short of units. Odessa can be kept in check by using three lousy units from German aligned minors, without slowing German movements at all. Sure, the Germans need to capture Odessa in time, but it's also the place von Manstein can capture while moving with newly build units later in the game). Same goes for Sevastopol. I bypass those cities by the Germans and kill them later. In the meantime, Hungarians or Rumanians can screen those places...

A hero city should contribute to the defense of the USSR. Odessa doesn't qualify. Kiev and Dnjepropretovsk do, as does Vitebsk, Minsk and Pskov. But not Odessa. Chisinau you can debate about, since you need to put units in there to get the Odessa factory out of the city, but otherwise I think it is better to start defending with the better units at the Dnjepr in the south. Sure, you can use some units to slow the Germans down to get there, however: the USSR is short on units, because it has to prepare for a Persian invasion in early 1941. And that's pretty early in the game than usual.

Also: as Germany, I wouldn't wait to attack the soviets until M/J. I would attack at the first possibility I would get. Which is the first snow or better weather impulse in M/A. I'm going to need time to move through empty territory and even if the Russians had those speed bumps in those cities, I would attack in M/A and clear those speed bumps in Eastern Poland. I don't wait for fine weather with a USSR slowly withdrawing from the border. That's playing into the USSR hands...
Yes, the USSR could put some units in those cities in Eastern Poland you mentioned. But they are going to get killed in the first impulse, without contributing anything. They won't even slow the German advance down at all. If you defend in depth, the Germans might find the airforce in the wrong place (to far from the front after the initial ground strikes). That's what I like to see as the USSR. Stuka's and Me 109 four or five hexes behind the attacking units. And the USSR has a nice airforce and will then get the opportunity to use it. Nothing better than to ground strike the advancing German armor stacks if the FTR's aren't able to cover them. Sure, the Russians won't kill them, but immobilizing them or the HQ's which have reorganised them is the best way to slow the German advance. Those TB's have such a nice long range...


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Peter

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Post #: 1224
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 8:34:52 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
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From: Ottawa, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

The crappy FTR are also good for posting on hero cities (Kiev, Vitebsk, Odessa & the like) to attempt to delay the German attacks by fighting off ground strikes. This costs the Axis air missions to bring up both FTR and LND in range, uses up Axis FTR which could rebase to keep up with the forward lines (to protect against USSR ground strikes). It may also cost the Axis an impulse or two extra to reduce the city if they wait to attack until they fire off a second round of ground strikes.

On the other hand it pretty much guarantees 2 bp lost for the pilot (the crap FTR being free at setup and best off scrapped upon destruction) which the USSR is very unlikely to make good on in 1941 vs no losses if the FTR are based in the rear or pulled off the map.

Not in an oil game. A stored oil is too precious to put in a hero city for the Germans to capture or strat bomb (after the FTR gets flipped) and then giggle. Put it in a hero city and it flys once. You can't even re-org it to harvest the pilot.


If the Germans attack the city in the same turn that the FTR flew (whether on the same or a subsequent impulse) then your objection does not come into play.

With the exception of late-turn ground strikes, if the Germans are willing to wait until the next turn to attack a city just to get the pleasure of seeing FTR not re-flip, that's a USSR win in my books as those units could be pushing forward somewhere else.

_____________________________

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Post #: 1225
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 8:46:36 PM   
Red Prince


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To respond to the several posts above:

composer99's long and very useful post . . . I ran out of units about halfway through But the Milita are on the way. I've got the Baltic States already almost set as you suggest, as well as the area through to Minsk. I finally got a speed bump into Lvov, but I'm not sure where I'm going to find one to put in Brest-Litovsk, assuming I've got the time to do it. I don't know how much of the rest I can actually get done, but I'm going to try most of it. First priority next Soviet impulse, though (if not at war), is to spend my moves in Persia. Nobody is properly positioned in the mountains yet, and I am still short a unit or two.

Centuur's concerns about Chisinau . . . it all depends on when the attack comes. Right now I have nobody to put there, and if I "shorten" either of the two stacks in front of it, Odessa is no longer screened safely. Chisinau, if not already stacked with disorganized (reserve) units is an ideal target for a surprise impulse Ground Strike, anyway.

All posts regarding Allied choice of first move in M/A '41 . . . I tend to side with the Allies moving first if given the choice. The Soviets need as much prep time as possible, but I think I agree that it isn't worth using up that +1 for a re-roll, especially since moving first might shift things in the other direction already.

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 1226
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 8:53:04 PM   
Red Prince


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From: Bangor, Maine, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Well. It looks like Composer99 and I do not agree on the USSR setup. I wouldn't want to defend Odessa, since the USSR is short of units. Odessa can be kept in check by using three lousy units from German aligned minors, without slowing German movements at all. Sure, the Germans need to capture Odessa in time, but it's also the place von Manstein can capture while moving with newly build units later in the game). Same goes for Sevastopol. I bypass those cities by the Germans and kill them later. In the meantime, Hungarians or Rumanians can screen those places...

A hero city should contribute to the defense of the USSR. Odessa doesn't qualify. Kiev and Dnjepropretovsk do, as does Vitebsk, Minsk and Pskov. But not Odessa. Chisinau you can debate about, since you need to put units in there to get the Odessa factory out of the city, but otherwise I think it is better to start defending with the better units at the Dnjepr in the south. Sure, you can use some units to slow the Germans down to get there, however: the USSR is short on units, because it has to prepare for a Persian invasion in early 1941. And that's pretty early in the game than usual.

Also: as Germany, I wouldn't wait to attack the soviets until M/J. I would attack at the first possibility I would get. Which is the first snow or better weather impulse in M/A. I'm going to need time to move through empty territory and even if the Russians had those speed bumps in those cities, I would attack in M/A and clear those speed bumps in Eastern Poland. I don't wait for fine weather with a USSR slowly withdrawing from the border. That's playing into the USSR hands...
Yes, the USSR could put some units in those cities in Eastern Poland you mentioned. But they are going to get killed in the first impulse, without contributing anything. They won't even slow the German advance down at all. If you defend in depth, the Germans might find the airforce in the wrong place (to far from the front after the initial ground strikes). That's what I like to see as the USSR. Stuka's and Me 109 four or five hexes behind the attacking units. And the USSR has a nice airforce and will then get the opportunity to use it. Nothing better than to ground strike the advancing German armor stacks if the FTR's aren't able to cover them. Sure, the Russians won't kill them, but immobilizing them or the HQ's which have reorganised them is the best way to slow the German advance. Those TB's have such a nice long range...


At the very least I want fine weather in the southern steppes. I want that double-die roll for my ground strikes to be useful, not half-useful. Also, if the first "suitable" opportunity comes late in the turn, all of those disorganized reserve units will get reorganized before I have a chance to pound them . . . and then a ton of MIL units will come into the game. I don't see that as a good option.
-----
Edit: If the USSR places them correctly, the reserves should survive M/J '41 and reorganize anyway, but why give them a free ride?

< Message edited by Red Prince -- 1/19/2012 8:55:09 PM >


_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 1227
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 8:56:59 PM   
Centuur


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From: Hoorn (NED).
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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

The crappy FTR are also good for posting on hero cities (Kiev, Vitebsk, Odessa & the like) to attempt to delay the German attacks by fighting off ground strikes. This costs the Axis air missions to bring up both FTR and LND in range, uses up Axis FTR which could rebase to keep up with the forward lines (to protect against USSR ground strikes). It may also cost the Axis an impulse or two extra to reduce the city if they wait to attack until they fire off a second round of ground strikes.

On the other hand it pretty much guarantees 2 bp lost for the pilot (the crap FTR being free at setup and best off scrapped upon destruction) which the USSR is very unlikely to make good on in 1941 vs no losses if the FTR are based in the rear or pulled off the map.

Not in an oil game. A stored oil is too precious to put in a hero city for the Germans to capture or strat bomb (after the FTR gets flipped) and then giggle. Put it in a hero city and it flys once. You can't even re-org it to harvest the pilot.


If the Germans attack the city in the same turn that the FTR flew (whether on the same or a subsequent impulse) then your objection does not come into play.

With the exception of late-turn ground strikes, if the Germans are willing to wait until the next turn to attack a city just to get the pleasure of seeing FTR not re-flip, that's a USSR win in my books as those units could be pushing forward somewhere else.

I would prefer using those low range FTR's around the Persian-USSR border, since that might give the USSR an immobile front in that area. Also: I don't like to start wasting Russian FTR's this way. It is a one moment thing only, and for that the USSR did spent 4 BP's? Only in a situation where the USSR is forced into slowing the Germans down (in case of a long summer with fine weather followed by a S/O with a lots of fine weather) I would opt to use this kind of desperate measures. But in the first couple of impulses of war? That's too early for such things...

_____________________________

Peter

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Post #: 1228
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 9:03:04 PM   
composer99


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You can probably get away without a unit in Brest-Litovsk as the German units facing it are too slow to make it to Minsk or the Ukraine in 1 impulse. Lvov I still like defending because it adds an impulse before the German forces in the south get to the Ukraine steppes. This could matter if March/April is short & bad weather or if you start off in May/June.

In fact I think the defence (or not) of those two cities and a strong defence of Odessa are the only major points of disagreement Centuur & I have on the USSR defence.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 1229
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 9:05:11 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

The crappy FTR are also good for posting on hero cities (Kiev, Vitebsk, Odessa & the like) to attempt to delay the German attacks by fighting off ground strikes. This costs the Axis air missions to bring up both FTR and LND in range, uses up Axis FTR which could rebase to keep up with the forward lines (to protect against USSR ground strikes). It may also cost the Axis an impulse or two extra to reduce the city if they wait to attack until they fire off a second round of ground strikes.

On the other hand it pretty much guarantees 2 bp lost for the pilot (the crap FTR being free at setup and best off scrapped upon destruction) which the USSR is very unlikely to make good on in 1941 vs no losses if the FTR are based in the rear or pulled off the map.

Not in an oil game. A stored oil is too precious to put in a hero city for the Germans to capture or strat bomb (after the FTR gets flipped) and then giggle. Put it in a hero city and it flys once. You can't even re-org it to harvest the pilot.


If the Germans attack the city in the same turn that the FTR flew (whether on the same or a subsequent impulse) then your objection does not come into play.

With the exception of late-turn ground strikes, if the Germans are willing to wait until the next turn to attack a city just to get the pleasure of seeing FTR not re-flip, that's a USSR win in my books as those units could be pushing forward somewhere else.

I think we must disagree on what constitutes a "hero city" then. The definition I know is one that gets bypassed because the Germans are afraid of flipping the number of units it will take to atttack it at good odds. And once bypassed, the FTR flies once if there's no oil stored in the city.

A good use for those types of FTRs is to protect the CP in the Black Sea (or the Caspian) where they can hold their own against axis NAV.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 1230
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