Slitherine

quote:

The purple front lines represents the "speed bump" defenders, cheap units that are quick to build, that create irritating ZOC situations for the Germans.

The blue line represents the "primary front" defenders, the place where my strongest INF and some heavier divisions (particularly AT or AA) will try to make their stand. This is also where the Soviet FTR force should probably begin the war, since it is far enough from Stuka range, but close enough to defend important targets.

The yellow back line represents the "mobile" defenders, such as fast MOT, MECH and ARM units, which can be used for counter-strikes, as well as some of the slower HQs. This is also probably where my long-range LND should go, well out of the range of the German bomber and fighter forces.
-----

quote:

ORIGINAL: rmdesantis

I used to play WIF many years ago, but life got in the way (new job, moving far from friends, etc). I've been reading this forum for about the past 4 years eagerly awaiting MWIF (for PBEM) and I now religiously check this thread for the AAR posts. Please keep it up, it's well balanced (discussing not only strategy but future choices/consequences) and quite realistic. I don't care about bad setups or mistakes, frankly, because we all make them. What I am interested in is how you recover from them, and this AAR does a fine job discussing that. Excellent work.

Mike

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I would rail all guns out of Bessarabia stat.

Unless the Germans have winterized forces, snow, storm & blizzard should make attacks on 2-unit stacks uncertain, which ought to help slow the Germans down if they go before the summer.

I will try to come up with more detailed suggestions based on post #1201 screenshot at lunch.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

For the sake of clarity, I removed the weather overlay in the above image. Blizzard, ice-age, and frostbite.

I'm finding it impossible to get things done right. I haven't even been able to get my speed bumps into position in the south, much less place units on either of the two "main front" defensive lines (in blue).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

For the sake of clarity, I removed the weather overlay in the above image. Blizzard, ice-age, and frostbite.

I'm finding it impossible to get things done right. I haven't even been able to get my speed bumps into position in the south, much less place units on either of the two "main front" defensive lines (in blue).

Prioritize. The most forward units need to be in as close to optimal as possible. Those behind them just vaguely close. When Germany DOWs the USSR, all the units will be able to move freely (unless some bombs fell on their heads). That means you will be able to form up your secondary lines without much trouble, with the ever present caveat that there are enough warm bodies (or even cold ones if this happens in winter).

So, which hexes in the front line have too many or too few units? Of those, which ones are going to require the most moves to rectify? That's where you spend your 5 land moves and 1 rail move.

If it looks like the attack through Persia is going to happen, starting rebasing a fighter and a short range bomber to that front. The USSR's short range air units are pretty much useless in the first turn of the onslaught in the west. They can't fly at all in the first impulse and the Germans advance so quickly that if they try to fly early in the turn they are likely to be overrun while they are disorganized.

I would give serious thought to taking some of the worst air units and moving them to the reserve pool, saving the pilots for better units that arrive later (perhaps a year in the future). But if the Germans have a long range ATR with a paratroop, the stubby winged fighters (range of 3!) can cover some crucial cities far in the rear.

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

The crappy FTR are also good for posting on hero cities (Kiev, Vitebsk, Odessa & the like) to attempt to delay the German attacks by fighting off ground strikes. This costs the Axis air missions to bring up both FTR and LND in range, uses up Axis FTR which could rebase to keep up with the forward lines (to protect against USSR ground strikes). It may also cost the Axis an impulse or two extra to reduce the city if they wait to attack until they fire off a second round of ground strikes.

On the other hand it pretty much guarantees 2 bp lost for the pilot (the crap FTR being free at setup and best off scrapped upon destruction) which the USSR is very unlikely to make good on in 1941 vs no losses if the FTR are based in the rear or pulled off the map.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

What are the goals of the USSR in defending against the Germans? It is to preserve the Caucasus (oil), to preserve Murmansk (with he railed factories there) and the central Siberian part of the country (where all other railed factories need to go). In addition to this, the USSR should defend in such a way that as much factories as possible are going to be pulled out towards the central Siberian region and 2 need to go to Murmansk (yes, that hard pressed CW should get a convoy chain into Murmansk. Those decadent British should come to the aid of the valous comrades. Signed, Uncle Joe...).

If you lose either the Caucasus or Central Siberia, it's over for the USSR.
No talk of defending Moscow here. Moscow isn't important. Leningrad is a good place to defend and Sevastopol (beware of a German Para taking the place, the unit should be in the place if the PARA appears in the Rumanian port nearby) and Rostov too, so they get garrisoned while your retreat asking for it. The rest of the USSR is probably going to get overrun by the Germans. It's going to be a reality in this game, because of Mr. Chamberlain staying too long in office...

Now, if you look at the lines, you are faced by one attack, which must not succeed: that's the one coming from Persia. Luckily the unified map gives the USSR good defensive positions (nice touch, all those Alpine and Lake hexsides). You need 6 units all with a minimum of 5 combat factors in the hexes Steve proposed, put Zhukov in the woods behind the mountains for supply reasons. Get one or two FTR's in position too (not in the same hex as Zhukov please) and a LND and you should be able to hold out against German Armor fighting in the mountains (oh how nice, tanks against infantrymen in the mountains...), especially since it looks like the Germans are short of FTR's in the area. Also: the USSR still got a one and probably two turns to get those units into positions, so no problem there. Strip the rest of Persia of any INF units, with the exception of Teheran (keep one INF there too).

Things are looking as well as to be expected in the northern Russia area. You've done the best you can.

Odessa looks screened. So that means that factory is going to get railed away. The only units in a bad position now are those around Cernauti and those in the southern area of the Pripjat Marshes, aren't they? So slowly start moving them backwards, out of Eastern Poland (Lvov is a trap and only if you put two white prints there, you will have a defense of 6, since it isn't a supply source. If you want a speedbump there, use one lousy INF. But even then, the Germans will probably move around it and kill it after groundstrike). Even in blizzard, the units around Cernauti can walk towards Chisinau and stay in supply the whole time.
Sure Blizzard slows things down, so do the five moves maximum, but Blizzard also means no German attack.

The Germans aren't ready either, are they? In Blizzard: they also walk very, very slowly towards you. No: blizzard, storm and rain are the friends of the Soviet Union in this stage of the game. Snow and Fine weather: those are things you don't want to see at all, since those give the Germans the opportunity to attack you.

And finally: how many fast moving stacks can the Germans gather against the USSR in Ukraine or the Baltics/Minsk area? Two, three? The other two are moving towards Persia and will need 3 HQ's immobile to provide supply for them. How nice that is? That means you can count out the maximum terrain they can gain on you. The Germans will have to make a choice where to attack (they probably will do so in the Ukraine, to attempt to move as fast as possible towards the Caucasus...
The Germans are also suffering from too few units at this moment, since they are also early in beginning the attack. Yes, the USSR will need to throw all kind of INF/GAR/MIL units in cities in the path of the Germans to stall him. Sure: the Germans are going to move and will probably grab the total Ukraine (except Sevastopol), move into Stalingrad, take Moscow. So what: that's not going to help him at all, provided you get the expensive MECH/ARM/HQ's and airforce to the area's where you can put up a good defense, because of very long German lines and of very good mountains to defend in.

You have a nice gearing limit on INF units. Keep it that way, but keep in mind the Germans might not DoW you in M/A if the winter is going your way (that is a lot of blizzards, storms and rains which keep pouring down onto the Russian and Polish border area's, making it impossible for the Germans to do anything usefull...).

Do not despair. War is just starting and the comrades commanded by Zhukov will stop a whole German Panzer army in Persia. Propaganda? Perhaps. Impossible: not al all...

Be positive...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Remember that the reserves arrive disorganized. They won't be able to move and they will give bonuses to the German attacks. Leningrad is a good place to occupy with reserves. I usually use Minsk and Pskov as speed bumps with a single reserve unit each. You will find that you have a lot of reserves to place on the map but not many good hexes for them. They are very useful in the second turn of the attack, but not so much so during the first turn.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

Trying to figure out which Soviets to rail/move this impulse, I had to go back 7 pages to find my original post laying out the basic idea I had at the time for a defense:

quote:

The purple front lines represents the "speed bump" defenders, cheap units that are quick to build, that create irritating ZOC situations for the Germans.

The blue line represents the "primary front" defenders, the place where my strongest INF and some heavier divisions (particularly AT or AA) will try to make their stand. This is also where the Soviet FTR force should probably begin the war, since it is far enough from Stuka range, but close enough to defend important targets.

The yellow back line represents the "mobile" defenders, such as fast MOT, MECH and ARM units, which can be used for counter-strikes, as well as some of the slower HQs. This is also probably where my long-range LND should go, well out of the range of the German bomber and fighter forces.
-----
[Image snipped for clarity - composer99]

Somewhere upthread Steve agreed this was a reasonable defensive structure. Yay me!

Unfortunately, take a look at the "revised" version of that same structure below. Compare the two. Boo me!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Remember that the reserves arrive disorganized. They won't be able to move and they will give bonuses to the German attacks. Leningrad is a good place to occupy with reserves. I usually use Minsk and Pskov as speed bumps with a single reserve unit each. You will find that you have a lot of reserves to place on the map but not many good hexes for them. They are very useful in the second turn of the attack, but not so much so during the first turn.

The only reserves I plan on placing in forward positions are the 7-4 Siberian INF and the 7-4 INF, both in Chisinau. That's 14 factors that can be attacked from 2 hexes maximum until the other nearby stacks are dealt with, and I don't think the Germans have the forces to overcome that on the first turn of war.

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

The crappy FTR are also good for posting on hero cities (Kiev, Vitebsk, Odessa & the like) to attempt to delay the German attacks by fighting off ground strikes. This costs the Axis air missions to bring up both FTR and LND in range, uses up Axis FTR which could rebase to keep up with the forward lines (to protect against USSR ground strikes). It may also cost the Axis an impulse or two extra to reduce the city if they wait to attack until they fire off a second round of ground strikes.

On the other hand it pretty much guarantees 2 bp lost for the pilot (the crap FTR being free at setup and best off scrapped upon destruction) which the USSR is very unlikely to make good on in 1941 vs no losses if the FTR are based in the rear or pulled off the map.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

The crappy FTR are also good for posting on hero cities (Kiev, Vitebsk, Odessa & the like) to attempt to delay the German attacks by fighting off ground strikes. This costs the Axis air missions to bring up both FTR and LND in range, uses up Axis FTR which could rebase to keep up with the forward lines (to protect against USSR ground strikes). It may also cost the Axis an impulse or two extra to reduce the city if they wait to attack until they fire off a second round of ground strikes.

On the other hand it pretty much guarantees 2 bp lost for the pilot (the crap FTR being free at setup and best off scrapped upon destruction) which the USSR is very unlikely to make good on in 1941 vs no losses if the FTR are based in the rear or pulled off the map.

Not in an oil game. A stored oil is too precious to put in a hero city for the Germans to capture or strat bomb (after the FTR gets flipped) and then giggle. Put it in a hero city and it flys once. You can't even re-org it to harvest the pilot.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Well. It looks like Composer99 and I do not agree on the USSR setup. I wouldn't want to defend Odessa, since the USSR is short of units. Odessa can be kept in check by using three lousy units from German aligned minors, without slowing German movements at all. Sure, the Germans need to capture Odessa in time, but it's also the place von Manstein can capture while moving with newly build units later in the game). Same goes for Sevastopol. I bypass those cities by the Germans and kill them later. In the meantime, Hungarians or Rumanians can screen those places...

A hero city should contribute to the defense of the USSR. Odessa doesn't qualify. Kiev and Dnjepropretovsk do, as does Vitebsk, Minsk and Pskov. But not Odessa. Chisinau you can debate about, since you need to put units in there to get the Odessa factory out of the city, but otherwise I think it is better to start defending with the better units at the Dnjepr in the south. Sure, you can use some units to slow the Germans down to get there, however: the USSR is short on units, because it has to prepare for a Persian invasion in early 1941. And that's pretty early in the game than usual.

Also: as Germany, I wouldn't wait to attack the soviets until M/J. I would attack at the first possibility I would get. Which is the first snow or better weather impulse in M/A. I'm going to need time to move through empty territory and even if the Russians had those speed bumps in those cities, I would attack in M/A and clear those speed bumps in Eastern Poland. I don't wait for fine weather with a USSR slowly withdrawing from the border. That's playing into the USSR hands...
Yes, the USSR could put some units in those cities in Eastern Poland you mentioned. But they are going to get killed in the first impulse, without contributing anything. They won't even slow the German advance down at all. If you defend in depth, the Germans might find the airforce in the wrong place (to far from the front after the initial ground strikes). That's what I like to see as the USSR. Stuka's and Me 109 four or five hexes behind the attacking units. And the USSR has a nice airforce and will then get the opportunity to use it. Nothing better than to ground strike the advancing German armor stacks if the FTR's aren't able to cover them. Sure, the Russians won't kill them, but immobilizing them or the HQ's which have reorganised them is the best way to slow the German advance. Those TB's have such a nice long range...

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

The crappy FTR are also good for posting on hero cities (Kiev, Vitebsk, Odessa & the like) to attempt to delay the German attacks by fighting off ground strikes. This costs the Axis air missions to bring up both FTR and LND in range, uses up Axis FTR which could rebase to keep up with the forward lines (to protect against USSR ground strikes). It may also cost the Axis an impulse or two extra to reduce the city if they wait to attack until they fire off a second round of ground strikes.

On the other hand it pretty much guarantees 2 bp lost for the pilot (the crap FTR being free at setup and best off scrapped upon destruction) which the USSR is very unlikely to make good on in 1941 vs no losses if the FTR are based in the rear or pulled off the map.

Not in an oil game. A stored oil is too precious to put in a hero city for the Germans to capture or strat bomb (after the FTR gets flipped) and then giggle. Put it in a hero city and it flys once. You can't even re-org it to harvest the pilot.

If the Germans attack the city in the same turn that the FTR flew (whether on the same or a subsequent impulse) then your objection does not come into play.

With the exception of late-turn ground strikes, if the Germans are willing to wait until the next turn to attack a city just to get the pleasure of seeing FTR not re-flip, that's a USSR win in my books as those units could be pushing forward somewhere else.

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

The crappy FTR are also good for posting on hero cities (Kiev, Vitebsk, Odessa & the like) to attempt to delay the German attacks by fighting off ground strikes. This costs the Axis air missions to bring up both FTR and LND in range, uses up Axis FTR which could rebase to keep up with the forward lines (to protect against USSR ground strikes). It may also cost the Axis an impulse or two extra to reduce the city if they wait to attack until they fire off a second round of ground strikes.

On the other hand it pretty much guarantees 2 bp lost for the pilot (the crap FTR being free at setup and best off scrapped upon destruction) which the USSR is very unlikely to make good on in 1941 vs no losses if the FTR are based in the rear or pulled off the map.

Not in an oil game. A stored oil is too precious to put in a hero city for the Germans to capture or strat bomb (after the FTR gets flipped) and then giggle. Put it in a hero city and it flys once. You can't even re-org it to harvest the pilot.

If the Germans attack the city in the same turn that the FTR flew (whether on the same or a subsequent impulse) then your objection does not come into play.

With the exception of late-turn ground strikes, if the Germans are willing to wait until the next turn to attack a city just to get the pleasure of seeing FTR not re-flip, that's a USSR win in my books as those units could be pushing forward somewhere else.