Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
If you're suggesting that ALL are suffering under the current build and that the Devs / programmers need to change something based upon this singular example, I would sharply disagree with your conclusion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

yeah the coordinate system makes both side suffer while we can tweak it and make it better.

So why we have to suffer? We can change the game to a better direction, yes we can!

You don't. If you don't like the existing basic engine, there are all sorts of mods out there (some mentioned previously) that can be tailored to your tastes. Bust out the editor and have at it.

If you're suggesting that ALL are suffering under the current build and that the Devs / programmers need to change something based upon this singular example, I would sharply disagree with your conclusion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001
It's really a big decision to give up a 1 year(real time) game and start a new one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

In my book, no matter what happens in this game from this point forward, GJ is already the victor (and has been since Hokkaido).  My reasoning:

1.  Scenario Two gives Japan lots of advantages.
2.  Rader has really worked the House Rules to his advantage and continues to do so.
3.  Against a newb, rader pulled out all the stops, taking out all China and almost all of India (almost all of which happened before people became aware of this game and could step in to lend GJ a hand from time to time).
4.   In other "pulling out all the stops" things, rader did stuff like mass scores of AA units in a single hex in India and march five divisions across the Owen Stanley Mountains.  Whether that kind of activity is kosher is debatable, but not as much when the opponent is a newb in my book.
5.  GJ maintained a positive outlook and learned very quickly.  He cut his teeth in the Solomons and performed very well.
6.  The invasion of Hokkaido was brilliant.  I'm sure he had plenty of advice from experienced players, but he showed the good sense to implement the advice and did so successfully.
7.  He hasn't played perfectly by any means.  He's still relatively new to the game and thus (until recently) hadn't suffered the kind of devastating carrier-battle loss that tends to make experienced players much more cautious.  Thus, he can be impulsive at times.  He's learning though.  I think he's shown the willingness to dive into minutae that suggests he will soon become a very high caliber player.

Overall, taking all factors into consideration, GJ won this game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

So you really think 300 fighters(1/3 of the cap) in the air only kills 50-60 planes before they reach the torpedo release point is reasonable? In early war stage 100 cap will do the same job, if not shot down more.

No I don´t, but the combat report also tells me differnt numbers than you seem to take for granted.

Ill put it simple as it is:
The strike on GJ carriers was too much for the CAP he assigned. To counter such a dedicated raid (also considering rader for ages trains his most valuable pilots
for such occasions) he would have needed more than 3 times the numbers, and still would face losses.

We do not have many historical examples of dedicated CAP trying to stop a high skill naval attack counting more than 500 a/c. But examples in comparable enviroment
suggests that a 300 fighters will not neccesarily dent such a strike. How should it with WWII capabilities?

Think BoB, close to all fair weather raids countered by heavy resistance reached target, and this with the best integrated air defense system in the world at the time.

To position carriers 80 miles from mainland Japan, while the IJN is still able to mount large scale strikes with modern planes and good pilots would never ever have been
allowed by the USN, for very obvious reasons.

If you want to complain about the ability of Japan to mount this type of raids in scen. 2 late war, please do so.
But don´t confuse that fact as an issue of the air combat model.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

It's really a big decision to give up a 1 year(real time) game and start a new one.
I don't know all this issues when I start the game. Feel like I was trapped.

And of course I can adapt to this game engine and just exploit to my advantages. But that's not the point, the point is the stock game can be better and that's why Michael release so many patches for. To fix bugs and tweak wrong things, right?

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Now, if you all please, let's bring the whole discussion about game mechanics and game flaws to the tech support and let's keep on fighting...the road is even longer now so we all need to focus on the strategic situation and decide what to do

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

My one question for GJ is this.

How much do you have on Hokkaido and in your Honshu invasion hexes, and how long can you last without sending resupply from the states?

The reason I ask this is that after this the KB will hunt for several months out there and be able to have it's way with anything in the Pacific. It will have to turn around though at some point and get more fuel and ordnance. Obviously your subs will also be on the hunt, and out of range of Es and ASW air. So ...

Can you last out this storm by just not sending convoys for a months or two, or will that kill your established positions? Can you put a good amount of stuff close, say in the Aleutians, under LBA cover, and keep them there until a window opens?

If he does reveal the KB in the deep Pacific, can you sneak supplies up from the south?

Anyway, interested to hear thoughts on the new situation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

oh this reminds me! I'm able to use gas tank for carrier fighters like Wildcat and Hellcat when they are on board in my game,so they can fly 10 hex now I guess. And SBD can fly 8 hex.

So right now Japs should have no distance advantage, right? Or did I missed something the advantage is still there?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

GJ has plenty of supply at Hokkaido, but he will still be able to send supply from the USA.  He can do so via massive convoys that are protected by his remaining carriers, taking advantage of the big island bases in Alaska and Canada to prevent getting ambushed, but a better way might be to break up his convoys into smaller groups that go unsecorted and take the chance of getting demolished.  Losing ten or twenty xAKs now and then isn't going to hurt GJ, while the balance of his merchantmen will get through (taking advantage of the island bases for CAP, but probably doing without carrier cover).

quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

So even i select to use gas tank on the carriers, and their range can be selected as 8-10 hex.

They can still fly only 7 hex in the real combat?

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

One quick point and then one of my lengthy discourses.

All this discussion about CAP but no discussion about flak. Not to say that an exposed GJ would not have been hurt but I think the most sad aspect of any late war battle is the weakness of Allied flak. Tankers and AKs are one thing but these attacks are against the Allied "A" team at a time when flak should be very deadly and account for a key number of aircraft kills.

Now for my take on the events. I have to admit that I am only an average player when it comes to optimizing my forces to take advantage of a particular situation. I just don't have the organizational skills to compete with a player like Rader on the tactical level. Quite frankly, in a similar situation as this last battle, I would have fared much worse as I tend to set my CAP on seat of the pant hunches and for what I feel would be historically correct. My solution is to compensate by playing my game much more conservatively to compensate for my tactical weak points.

This is in no way a critique of Greyjoys very aggressive style. He has done amazing things in this game and the knowledge that I have gained just by following his AAR has been incredible. Both from the game play and from all the very good input. So, I will not offer any tactical advice but give a few key overall strategic observations that I think might help for the "average" Allied player. And open the floor for comment. This is for scen #2 and consider that you are playing a good opponent.

1. Patience is a virtue. If you are in it for the campaign then you are looking to close the deal in 45 or 46 depending on events.

2. You won't win by wiping out the Japanese air force. However, given a good base network and a deliberate advance the Allied airforce should always be able to win at the point of attack.

3. Traditonal avenues, and historic routes, are not a bad way to go. Japan is always in the fight as long as they an strong economy. The best plan is to destroy Japanese oil and cut off lines of supply and reinforcementment to the home islands and hurt Japanese production as best you can before considering major operations against the Japanese home land. This does not mean that opportunities to exploit mistakes should not be taken. (We all dream of taking Hokkaido in 44) The Allied player should always be looking for an exploit that will gain a foothold in critical areas. Take bases that force the Japanese player to react and offer opportunities to inflict damage-especially to the IJN gives the Japanese player flexibility. Look for safe bases. After 1943 you are pretty safe from most counter invasions.
4. You absolutely need to have multiple points of attack to disperse Japanese resources. Only one avenue and the Japanese can react and defend.

5. Be ready to throw out most preconceptions. Be ready to adjust to the realities of the game and don't cling to what you expected or wanted to happen. (For expample, I have pretty much abandoned any notion of my 44 sub fleet bringing Japanese commerce to its knees..)

6. The Aleutian route and Central Pacific may not be such a bad way to go. Versus an intact Allied fleet, it is hard for the Japanese player to defend islands because it is easier to isolate them and neutralize LBA.

7. No matter what your principal route of attack you have to put pressure on Japanese oil if only to force the Japanese player to use forces needed elsewhere to defend it.

8. Avoid major land campaigns where you can't cut off the flow of supply and reinforcments. The Japanese army is just too large.

9. What the hell, wait for the Soviets.....

9. If you are playing guys like Alfred, Nemo, Pzb and a few others, then think about winning in 1946 and plan on using every A-bomb that you can get your hands on. Don't fret about victory levels just do it because it needs to be done.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
I guess I feel that changes after I start a game and am well into it make me feel trapped too. Not all of the changes implemented since I started my PBEM two years ago are good ones, IMO.

Yes, MichaelM has changed any number of gameplay effects, including squishing some bonafide bugs. Before stumping for changing the code, however, I urge caution and consideration.

So:
1. Have other players experienced these same problems?
2. If so, how many?
3. Have other players NOT experienced these same problems?
4. If so, how many?
5. What is the nature of the problem?
6. Was this unwelcome change 'introduced' by previous code tweaking? Can it be 'undone' in hindsight?
7. How can it be fixed?
8. Should this fix be added in an official patch or a beta moving forward?

Without consideration of these other questions and investigation, any 'call to arms' for the developers / programmers risks premature involvement, IMO.

Anyways, 'nuff said. Sorry to hijack, GreyJoy. Enjoying your AAR and its activity!

quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

Lucky to get this clear, I was making plans based on my fighters can escort 8 hex...

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK
IMHO It is exacerbated by the narrow thrust that GJ has used rather than a theatre wide approach. There is no need for rader to defend anywhere except the HI so both players probably have 75%+ of there air forces facing a 5-6 hex front.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK
IMHO It is exacerbated by the narrow thrust that GJ has used rather than a theatre wide approach. There is no need for rader to defend anywhere except the HI so both players probably have 75%+ of there air forces facing a 5-6 hex front.

Yup. I've never seen battles this big before, I'm in Feb 1944, and I can't really see it happening to be honest for some time yet.

I don't like overstacking airbases so that means about 15 squadrons max in the typical airbase, and too few airbases to have more than a couple such on a given axis of advance.

Like if I took Guam and Saipan for B29 purposes thats just two airfields at a huge range from Japan, I can't see it being all that effective or leading to vast air battles.