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RE: OT - WWII quiz

 
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RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/3/2012 4:54:00 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		No.3
1. I am a land unit that fought in World War II and I have my own counter - I am larger than a divisional unit
2. I am available at the start of the Global Campaign. I was not given the designation on my counter right at the start of the war, this happened during 1940.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2761
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/3/2012 4:56:38 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

We've had "Name that plane" so how about "Name this boat"



Warspite1

I can't quite read her name on the side, my eyesight is not that good, but I will go for "Penelope".

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2762
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/3/2012 5:08:16 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

We've had "Name that plane" so how about "Name this boat"



Warspite1

I can't quite read her name on the side, my eyesight is not that good, but I will go for "Penelope".
Warspite1

I will go for Landing Craft Assault (LCA) - but not confident.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2763
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/3/2012 5:28:52 PM   
Beryl


Posts: 44
Joined: 6/1/2008
From: France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

No.3
1. I am a land unit that fought in World War II and I have my own counter - I am larger than a divisional unit
2. I am available at the start of the Global Campaign. I was not given the designation on my counter right at the start of the war, this happened during 1940.

WDF ? not available at set-up, but available in the force pool. I think the Western Desert Force designation was used only from 40.

_____________________________

"Nicht kleckern, klotzen!" - Guderian

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2764
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/3/2012 5:39:36 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Beryl


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

No.3
1. I am a land unit that fought in World War II and I have my own counter - I am larger than a divisional unit
2. I am available at the start of the Global Campaign. I was not given the designation on my counter right at the start of the war, this happened during 1940.

WDF ? not available at set-up, but available in the force pool. I think the Western Desert Force designation was used only from 40.
Warspite1

Good shot!

The Western Desert Force is the correct answer. The name change took place in June 1940 I think - after Italy's declaration of war. It was units of the WDF (Wavell's 30,000) that destroyed the Italian 10th Army in Operation Compass .

BTW: the three others are not Commonwealth counters!

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Beryl)
Post #: 2765
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/3/2012 6:05:10 PM   
Beryl


Posts: 44
Joined: 6/1/2008
From: France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

No.4
1. I am a land unit that fought in World War II and I have my own counter - I am larger than a divisional unit
2. I am available at the start of the Global Campaign, as I was in real life - although if WIF was not a high level strategic game, I would probably disappear after about 2.5 years of war. Instead, I am available throughout the game.

I would guess it is a HQ unit, whom commander was dead, captured or forced to resign from military operation before mid 42. Difficult to say, as all sides had general assignated to very secondary command (Gort, Timoshenko), political or symbolic charge (Graziani, Wavell) around 42...
Edit : Not a commonwealth counter, let's say Timoshenko then

< Message edited by Beryl -- 3/3/2012 6:07:23 PM >

_____________________________

"Nicht kleckern, klotzen!" - Guderian

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2766
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/3/2012 6:43:43 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Beryl

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

No.4
1. I am a land unit that fought in World War II and I have my own counter - I am larger than a divisional unit
2. I am available at the start of the Global Campaign, as I was in real life - although if WIF was not a high level strategic game, I would probably disappear after about 2.5 years of war. Instead, I am available throughout the game.

I would guess it is a HQ unit, whom commander was dead, captured or forced to resign from military operation before mid 42. Difficult to say, as all sides had general assignated to very secondary command (Gort, Timoshenko), political or symbolic charge (Graziani, Wavell) around 42...
Edit : Not a commonwealth counter, let's say Timoshenko then
Warspite1

Timoshenko is the wrong answer.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Beryl)
Post #: 2767
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/3/2012 10:59:54 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		No.4
1. I am a land unit that fought in World War II and I have my own counter - I am larger than a divisional unit
2. I am available at the start of the Global Campaign, as I was in real life - although if WIF was not a high level strategic game, I would probably disappear after about 2.5 years of war. Instead, I am available throughout the game.
3. Beryl was on the right track. I was not killed or injured in 1942, but I did exit the war during that year.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2768
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/3/2012 11:05:24 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		No.2
1. I am a land unit that fought in World War II and I have my own counter - I am larger than a divisional unit
2. I am not available at the start of the Global Campaign, but am ready about half way through. I am available in WIF a little earlier than was the case in reality.
3. I am a corps that usually consisted of three divisions - two of these divisions are very well known to WWII buffs - the third, perhaps less so.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2769
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/3/2012 11:11:01 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		No.1
1. I am a land unit that fought in World War II and I have my own counter - I am smaller than a Corps/Army unit
2. I am not represented in WIF in the way I existed in WWII (it can't really be so). However my inclusion in the game is right and ADG have done a good job.
3. In the real war I was used with a good deal of success early on, but my usefulness was less obvious as the war progressed....

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2770
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/4/2012 4:00:38 PM   
Beryl


Posts: 44
Joined: 6/1/2008
From: France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

No.2
1. I am a land unit that fought in World War II and I have my own counter - I am larger than a divisional unit
2. I am not available at the start of the Global Campaign, but am ready about half way through. I am available in WIF a little earlier than was the case in reality.
3. I am a corps that usually consisted of three divisions - two of these divisions are very well known to WWII buffs - the third, perhaps less so.


Must be the 101° + 82° US Abn. As the XL and XXXIV PARA are available in WIF early on, the answer should be the XVIII° US Airborne Corp, available in WIF in 42.

_____________________________

"Nicht kleckern, klotzen!" - Guderian

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2771
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/4/2012 4:29:08 PM   
Beryl


Posts: 44
Joined: 6/1/2008
From: France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

No.1
1. I am a land unit that fought in World War II and I have my own counter - I am smaller than a Corps/Army unit
2. I am not represented in WIF in the way I existed in WWII (it can't really be so). However my inclusion in the game is right and ADG have done a good job.
3. In the real war I was used with a good deal of success early on, but my usefulness was less obvious as the war progressed....


I guess it is an Art, AA or AT div. The 88 must be the most famous flak gun and was very successful early on, when used as anti-tank weapon by the Wehrmacht. I think its later failure is illustrated in the film 'The Bridge at Remagen'.

_____________________________

"Nicht kleckern, klotzen!" - Guderian

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2772
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/4/2012 5:47:03 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Beryl

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

No.2
1. I am a land unit that fought in World War II and I have my own counter - I am larger than a divisional unit
2. I am not available at the start of the Global Campaign, but am ready about half way through. I am available in WIF a little earlier than was the case in reality.
3. I am a corps that usually consisted of three divisions - two of these divisions are very well known to WWII buffs - the third, perhaps less so.


Must be the 101° + 82° US Abn. As the XL and XXXIV PARA are available in WIF early on, the answer should be the XVIII° US Airborne Corp, available in WIF in 42.
Warspite1

Well done again Beryl - exactly right.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Beryl)
Post #: 2773
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/4/2012 5:48:25 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Beryl


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

No.1
1. I am a land unit that fought in World War II and I have my own counter - I am smaller than a Corps/Army unit
2. I am not represented in WIF in the way I existed in WWII (it can't really be so). However my inclusion in the game is right and ADG have done a good job.
3. In the real war I was used with a good deal of success early on, but my usefulness was less obvious as the war progressed....


I guess it is an Art, AA or AT div. The 88 must be the most famous flak gun and was very successful early on, when used as anti-tank weapon by the Wehrmacht. I think its later failure is illustrated in the film 'The Bridge at Remagen'.
Warspite1

Is incorrect - and for the first time you are barking up the wrong tree.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Beryl)
Post #: 2774
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/4/2012 6:28:18 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		No.4
1. I am a land unit that fought in World War II and I have my own counter - I am larger than a divisional unit
2. I am available at the start of the Global Campaign, as I was in real life - although if WIF was not a high level strategic game, I would probably disappear after about 2.5 years of war. Instead, I am available throughout the game.
3. Beryl was on the right track. I was not killed or injured in 1942, but I did exit the war during that year.
4. I am a German unit

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2775
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/4/2012 6:34:03 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		No.1
1. I am a land unit that fought in World War II and I have my own counter - I am smaller than a Corps/Army unit
2. I am not represented in WIF in the way I existed in WWII (it can't really be so). However my inclusion in the game is right and ADG have done a good job.
3. In the real war I was used with a good deal of success early on, but my usefulness was less obvious as the war progressed....
4. I am represented in WIF by 3 units - and a further two possibles (though these latter two have a different name ).

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2776
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/4/2012 7:07:37 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

We've had "Name that plane" so how about "Name this boat"



Warspite1

I can't quite read her name on the side, my eyesight is not that good, but I will go for "Penelope".
Warspite1

I will go for Landing Craft Assault (LCA) - but not confident.


It is similar Landing Craft Assault (LCA) but the difference is in the details.

The Landing Craft Assault (LCA) was controlled from behind the shield the starboard side.

Here is a good view from a paper model of a LCA


This landing craft has two .30-caliber machine guns and was controlled from behind the port machine gun position.

Just a FYI: The writing on the landing craft is PA1814.



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2777
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/4/2012 8:40:23 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

No.4
1. I am a land unit that fought in World War II and I have my own counter - I am larger than a divisional unit
2. I am available at the start of the Global Campaign, as I was in real life - although if WIF was not a high level strategic game, I would probably disappear after about 2.5 years of war. Instead, I am available throughout the game.
3. Beryl was on the right track. I was not killed or injured in 1942, but I did exit the war during that year.
4. I am a German unit

Ritter von Leeb.

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2778
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/4/2012 9:00:56 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

No.4
1. I am a land unit that fought in World War II and I have my own counter - I am larger than a divisional unit
2. I am available at the start of the Global Campaign, as I was in real life - although if WIF was not a high level strategic game, I would probably disappear after about 2.5 years of war. Instead, I am available throughout the game.
3. Beryl was on the right track. I was not killed or injured in 1942, but I did exit the war during that year.
4. I am a German unit


Ritter von Leeb.
Warspite1

Is the correct answer . Ritter Von Leeb actually asked to be relieved by Hitler as he was fed up with the constant interference from above. His request was met and he was never re-employed.

Well that leaves one to go. I thought it would be one of the easiest but turns out to be the most difficult. I can't think of another clue at the moment without giving it away.....

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 2779
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/5/2012 1:26:31 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Beryl


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

No.1
1. I am a land unit that fought in World War II and I have my own counter - I am smaller than a Corps/Army unit
2. I am not represented in WIF in the way I existed in WWII (it can't really be so). However my inclusion in the game is right and ADG have done a good job.
3. In the real war I was used with a good deal of success early on, but my usefulness was less obvious as the war progressed....


I guess it is an Art, AA or AT div. The 88 must be the most famous flak gun and was very successful early on, when used as anti-tank weapon by the Wehrmacht. I think its later failure is illustrated in the film 'The Bridge at Remagen'.



what does the film illustrate?

I have always found it interesting that in American combat memoirs, just about every explosion near the writer is blamed on "88s"

(in reply to Beryl)
Post #: 2780
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/5/2012 4:47:17 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		No.1
1. I am a land unit that fought in World War II and I have my own counter - I am smaller than a Corps/Army unit
2. I am not represented in WIF in the way I existed in WWII (it can't really be so). However my inclusion in the game is right and ADG have done a good job.
3. In the real war I was used with a good deal of success early on, but my usefulness was less obvious as the war progressed....
4. I am represented in WIF by 3 units - and a further two possibles (though these latter two have a different name ). Sorry - I should clarify that three of these counters are at corps/army level. The two that are the subject of this question are divisional units and I am looking for the "1st" of these.
5. Think Pacific War.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2781
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/5/2012 7:31:59 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		I was going to say the 1st to 5th Divisions, USMC, but am not sure (might lessen the field a bit)

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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2782
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/5/2012 8:03:15 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

No.1
1. I am a land unit that fought in World War II and I have my own counter - I am smaller than a Corps/Army unit
2. I am not represented in WIF in the way I existed in WWII (it can't really be so). However my inclusion in the game is right and ADG have done a good job.
3. In the real war I was used with a good deal of success early on, but my usefulness was less obvious as the war progressed....
4. I am represented in WIF by 3 units - and a further two possibles (though these latter two have a different name ). Sorry - I should clarify that three of these counters are at corps/army level. The two that are the subject of this question are divisional units and I am looking for the "1st" of these.
5. Think Pacific War.

1st SNLF division?

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2783
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/5/2012 5:43:43 PM   
Beryl


Posts: 44
Joined: 6/1/2008
From: France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

what does the film illustrate?

I have always found it interesting that in American combat memoirs, just about every explosion near the writer is blamed on "88s"

if my memory serves me right, in the movie the AA 88 guns, manned by volksturm, are positionned on a straight line in the open on the right bank of the Rhine, and suffer complete anihilation from artillery shells and shermans firing from the left bank. As anyone could imagine it would be stupid to used such guns at close range, from a known position and without blakhaus protection... and you can't fire against tanks and planes at the same time

_____________________________

"Nicht kleckern, klotzen!" - Guderian

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 2784
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/5/2012 7:47:39 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

No.1
1. I am a land unit that fought in World War II and I have my own counter - I am smaller than a Corps/Army unit
2. I am not represented in WIF in the way I existed in WWII (it can't really be so).
However my inclusion in the game is right and ADG have done a good job.
3. In the real war I was used with a good deal of success early on, but my usefulness was less obvious as the war progressed....
4. I am represented in WIF by 3 units - and a further two possibles (though these latter two have a different name ). Sorry - I should clarify that three of these counters are at corps/army level. The two that are the subject of this question are divisional units and I am looking for the "1st" of these.

5. Think Pacific War.

1st SNLF division?
Warspite1

Is the correct answer The Special Naval Landing Forces were rarely used in anything more than battalion or (rarely) brigade-size strength and certainly not division and much less corps size. After Japanese expansion plans came to a halt, these units were largely used as island garrison troops, where many were wiped out.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 2785
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/5/2012 9:28:16 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

No.1
1. I am a land unit that fought in World War II and I have my own counter - I am smaller than a Corps/Army unit
2. I am not represented in WIF in the way I existed in WWII (it can't really be so).
However my inclusion in the game is right and ADG have done a good job.
3. In the real war I was used with a good deal of success early on, but my usefulness was less obvious as the war progressed....
4. I am represented in WIF by 3 units - and a further two possibles (though these latter two have a different name ). Sorry - I should clarify that three of these counters are at corps/army level. The two that are the subject of this question are divisional units and I am looking for the "1st" of these.

5. Think Pacific War.

1st SNLF division?
Warspite1

Is the correct answer The Special Naval Landing Forces were rarely used in anything more than battalion or (rarely) brigade-size strength and certainly not division and much less corps size. After Japanese expansion plans came to a halt, these units were largely used as island garrison troops, where many were wiped out.




Don't forget in WiF divisions represent units of divisional size or smaller.


Some Japanese Special Landing Forces were as large as regiments

Japanese Special Landing Forces ~ my post #91

And then there are the 3,500 man strong Sea Landing Brigades.

Sea Landing Brigades ~ my post #101




_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2786
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/5/2012 9:32:00 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

We've had "Name that plane" so how about "Name this boat"



Warspite1

I can't quite read her name on the side, my eyesight is not that good, but I will go for "Penelope".
Warspite1

I will go for Landing Craft Assault (LCA) - but not confident.


It is similar Landing Craft Assault (LCA) but the difference is in the details.

The Landing Craft Assault (LCA) was controlled from behind the shield the starboard side.

Here is a good view from a paper model of a LCA


This landing craft has two .30-caliber machine guns and was controlled from behind the port machine gun position.

Just a FYI: The writing on the landing craft is PA1814.




Last clue: "P" stands for personnel.




_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2787
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/5/2012 9:46:38 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

No.1
1. I am a land unit that fought in World War II and I have my own counter - I am smaller than a Corps/Army unit
2. I am not represented in WIF in the way I existed in WWII (it can't really be so).
However my inclusion in the game is right and ADG have done a good job.
3. In the real war I was used with a good deal of success early on, but my usefulness was less obvious as the war progressed....
4. I am represented in WIF by 3 units - and a further two possibles (though these latter two have a different name ). Sorry - I should clarify that three of these counters are at corps/army level. The two that are the subject of this question are divisional units and I am looking for the "1st" of these.

5. Think Pacific War.


1st SNLF division?
Warspite1

Is the correct answer The Special Naval Landing Forces were rarely used in anything more than battalion or (rarely) brigade-size strength and certainly not division and much less corps size. After Japanese expansion plans came to a halt, these units were largely used as island garrison troops, where many were wiped out.


Don't forget in WiF divisions represent units of divisional size or smaller.


Some Japanese Special Landing Forces were as large as regiments


Japanese Special Landing Forces ~ my post #91

And then there are the 3,500 man strong Sea Landing Brigades.

Sea Landing Brigades ~

my post #101

Warspite1

Yes the XX are divisions - and the X are brigades The 1st and 2nd SNLF counters are divisions and the SNLF fought at battalion or at most brigade size.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2788
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/5/2012 9:52:08 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		1. I do have a counter in WIF
2. I am included in the set up for Global War but I am not always set up in Global War games.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2789
RE: OT - WWII quiz - 3/6/2012 6:47:43 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

1. I do have a counter in WIF
2. I am included in the set up for Global War but I am not always set up in Global War games.
Warspite1

With those clues Orm you've given it away. It can't be anything other than the German 5-4 Alpine Corps.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 2790
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