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The AI Cheats - 3/10/2012 4:16:07 PM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		Given the server problems, I decided to challenge the AI. It is ridiculous how the AI is coded to teleport units out of pockets and other acts of prestidigitaion. I understand giving the AI a mathematical computational advantage, but bending the rules and allowing it to perform such things which are contrary to the mechanics of the game is just plain ridiculous.

It seems that there are 2 sets of rules: rules for the human player, and rules for the AI. BTW, it also appears that the AI is not necessarily constrained by RR limits when it comes to moving production.

The server has been plagued by issues, there is no anti-cheat mechanism for PBEM games, and the AI cheats.

Sigh,






Attachment (1)
Post #: 1
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/10/2012 4:23:34 PM   
Tophat1815

 

Posts: 1824
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Looks like they walked out through the marshes then got the train at Tsuryupinsk. Either that or they bribed the Italians and Rumanians. So is the soviet ai more of a challenge? Note the pocket of 3 units to the northeast your incomplete southern pocket,see how those units didn't get on the transporterpad? Gotta complete those pockets or the ai gets the benefit of the way out.

< Message edited by Tophat1812 -- 3/10/2012 4:24:32 PM >

(in reply to mmarquo)
Post #: 2
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/10/2012 4:45:02 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Hi Marquo,

To help a bit, the server is now fixed and it does have anti-cheat mechanisms.

We'd need to look at a save for this - the AI does get to bend the rules in a few places, mainly to get around issues that an AI can't understand as well as a human, but by and large we've been closing loopholes that allow "teleportation" since release and making it stick as much to the same rules as a human player as possible. With that said, I've also seen reports before that looked odd, but when we reviewed them the AI was following the movement rules correctly.

Regards,

- Erik

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For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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Post #: 3
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/10/2012 5:09:52 PM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		Tophat,

The point is that given the constraints of available MPs (in zoc, crossing minor/major rivers, etc.) there is absolutely no way a human player would have been able to move these units more than 1 or 2 hexes; no way, no how, impossible according to the mechanics/rules for humans. Not being a tester I do not regualry save moves, but anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of the mechanics as applies to human players knows that what I showed above is otherwise impossible.

And as Erik just pointed out, "the AI does get to bend the rules in a few places, mainly to get around issues that an AI can't understand as well as a human." I submit that this in not "bending rules," rather there must be a set of code for humans and another set of code/rules for the AI. What is frustrating more than anything, is that if one wants to practice tactics, strategy against the AI, ones learns little that me maybe transported to a game against a human.

For me it is a waste of time, but I understand that for others it may be quite fun.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 4
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/10/2012 6:49:00 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Hmmm... this was issue long time ago and fixed by Gary almost 12 months ago IIRC... I really didn't see this in long long time...


Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 5
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/10/2012 9:25:20 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Hi Marquo,

Actually the AI makes for excellent training and what we're trying to say is that this looks like it may be a bug or some unclosed loophole. As far as I know, the areas where the AI gets some advantages do not include tactical movement, but do include rail/strategic movement.

Regards,

- Erik


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For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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Post #: 6
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/10/2012 9:26:50 PM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		Well, here it is again; I am playing the most current update. I am trying a "streaming east" strategy of outrunning/bypassing units with motorized units and allowing cavalry/infantry to finish off pocketing. Laying a zoc on units and "almost' closing the pocket should be enough to not allow the units to move too far, unless of course the AI is endowed with teleportation power.

Marquo

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 7
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/11/2012 12:02:59 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		In these zoc to zoc tight moves, the AI is not supposed to be using warp moves. As Leo said, there was much work done on this months ago and we hadn't seen a report of it in quite a while. If you can post a save before the AI move where it repeats, we'll take a look. We really have tried to keep the AI from doing these kinds of impossible moves at times it seems the AI has a mind of its own. I'm moving this to tech support so Lee will log it if we get a save.

< Message edited by Joel Billings -- 3/11/2012 12:04:26 AM >

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Post #: 8
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/11/2012 2:09:08 AM   
blastpop


Posts: 395
Joined: 11/27/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline 		Just an observation- this was moved to tech support- No, it really is a game play issue, like so many other concerns about patches and such. Tech support is really if you can't get the game to run or it crashes with a certain setup. I know I may be splitting hairs... but tech support, really???

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Post #: 9
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/11/2012 4:04:55 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Yes - the tech support forum is and always has been for any kind of bug or technical support. If you find a potential issue with the game, whether it's crashing or a game rule doesn't seem to be working properly, this is the place to post it.

Regards,

- Erik


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Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

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Post #: 10
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/11/2012 5:18:03 PM   
Redmarkus5


Posts: 4456
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: 0.00
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Yes - the tech support forum is and always has been for any kind of bug or technical support. If you find a potential issue with the game, whether it's crashing or a game rule doesn't seem to be working properly, this is the place to post it.

Regards,

- Erik



Erik,

I have to say (with the utmost sincerity) that your cool, calm and professional defense of your baby, your apparent online presence at all hours, and your tireless responses to all manner of queries and complaints over what must feel like endless months is truly impressive.

While you and I may disagree on many points, I have really come to admire and respect the way you handle the challenge and it is (ironically) a major reason why I for one have not given up on the game.

Hopefully, you took Sunday off and will read this on Monday!

Markus

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Post #: 11
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/11/2012 6:13:10 PM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		Joel,

I'd like to echo Markus' sentiments. Thanks.

I may not be able to take the time or remember to save every move when I am playing the AI. However, it a tester wanted to see if this is repeatable, if I may suggest simply "almost" closing the pocket and see what the AI does.

Thanks again,

Mark

(in reply to Redmarkus5)
Post #: 12
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/11/2012 6:46:17 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Thank you guys, I do appreciate that.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

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Post #: 13
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/11/2012 7:07:58 PM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Joel,

I'd like to echo Markus' sentiments. Thanks.

I may not be able to take the time or remember to save every move when I am playing the AI. However, it a tester wanted to see if this is repeatable, if I may suggest simply "almost" closing the pocket and see what the AI does.

Thanks again,

Mark


You can turn on autosave and then you don't need to remember.

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Post #: 14
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/12/2012 4:41:29 AM   
Palmer3

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 3/9/2012
Status: offline 		the server is now fixed and it does have anti-cheat mechanisms.

(in reply to elmo3)
Post #: 15
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/12/2012 1:31:35 PM   
Redmarkus5


Posts: 4456
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: 0.00
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Thank you guys, I do appreciate that.


He read it on Sunday ;)

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Post #: 16
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/12/2012 1:36:03 PM   
blastpop


Posts: 395
Joined: 11/27/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline 		I'm sorry if I came across as somewhat harsh. Yet I still respectfully disagree with Erik

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Post #: 17
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/20/2012 12:36:30 AM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline 		This one is pretty amazing...

Through ZOCs, swamps, across rivers, across lake Ladoga, into a port in enemy ZOC (via Finland at the no-move), through more rivers, swamps, and ZOC.






The only question to ask is why didn't it just take every division? Why leave 2 or 3 behind?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by heliodorus04 -- 3/20/2012 12:39:05 AM >

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Post #: 18
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/20/2012 1:01:52 AM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline 		If you have the save before the move please send it to me and I'll take a look.

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Post #: 19
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/20/2012 1:13:14 AM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline 		Before the Soviet move?
Do I zip and attach, or is there an e-mail address to send the raw file?

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Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

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Post #: 20
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/20/2012 2:06:02 AM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		IIRC there is a chance that surrounded units may surrender on their own without combat; could this have happened? Or is it once again the AI Magical Mystery Tour?

Marquo

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Post #: 21
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/20/2012 2:22:20 AM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Before the Soviet move?
Do I zip and attach, or is there an e-mail address to send the raw file?


The end of your Axis turn if you have it. You can zip and attach. Thanks.

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Post #: 22
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/20/2012 2:28:20 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline 		T11 End of turn save attached.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

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Post #: 23
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/20/2012 2:52:09 PM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline 		Got the file. Will take a look later today. Thanks.

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Post #: 24
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/21/2012 8:04:14 PM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline 		Added to the bug list as BG0051.

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Post #: 25
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/21/2012 11:21:30 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline 		That pretty much does it for me and War in the East then, and I wish to thank you for your effort at determining a bug, particularly for me, a persona non grata around here.

If you can't even play against the AI, the game is FUBAR.


_____________________________

Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

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Post #: 26
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/21/2012 11:24:47 PM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline 		Bugs are bugs and we usually don't shoot the messenger for pointing them out, regardless of who it is.

This won't get fixed in the soon to be released update but it's on the list for Gary to look at so hopefully he'll figure it out for the next one.

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We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw

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Sanctus Reach beta tester
Desert War 1940-42 beta tester

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Post #: 27
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/22/2012 1:03:00 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		Gary took a look and said that he found certain defense functions (in this case the Leningrad and Volkhov defense functions) were ignoring the zoc issues and doing excessive warping. Gary tries to stomp out these whenever he can, so he'll try to put appropriate limits on these defense functions in future versions (not the one coming later this week though) to prevent this. However, the post that started this thread does not look to be in an area with a special defense function, so that's another function that is doing something it shouldn't. If we can get a save for that, that should get on the bug list. Thanks for sending in the saves, as it's the only way we can attempt to improve the AI in order to limit it's cheating. Gary needs to AI to do some warping, but we don't want it to happen by units that are in places they couldn't get out of.

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Post #: 28
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/22/2012 1:22:44 AM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline 		So in a future update, if these specific issues are remedied (successfully...) would it be possible for me to re-load my T11 End-Turn, advance the turn, and the units partially encircled would be restricted to their legitimate movement allowances on its turn?

If so, I'll wait for a future patch and play it again.

_____________________________

Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 29
RE: The AI Cheats - 3/22/2012 5:32:00 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		That's the idea, yes.

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Post #: 30
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