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CAUCASUS OIL - 5/29/2012 2:05:32 PM

buffcoat

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I have captured Baku and the entire north cost of the Caspian (late 43) and therefore have sealed off all Soviet oil from this source.

In game terms have I achieved anything tangible that will impact the Soviets over time or have I just been enjoying myself finding something for my paratroops to do?

I daresay if I could search the forum effectively I might have found this answer, sorry if I am duplicating earlier queries.

Thanks

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 5/29/2012 3:13:42 PM

elmo3

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I believe Baku is the single largest source of oil production for the Soviets. Sections 21.1.5 and 21.2 in the manual discuss oil production and damage/repair.

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 5/29/2012 5:09:50 PM

Klydon

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Baku is the largest (but by no means only) source of oil.

I don't know what the "real" effect will be on the game for you as far as how much it can and should cripple the Russian war economy. A lot will depend on how much of a stockpile there is. I suspect it will be less than you may think in terms of immediate results. The German war machine didn't cease when Rumania fell, which was the Germans largest oil source.

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 5/29/2012 5:41:10 PM

Panzer Meyer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Baku is the largest (but by no means only) source of oil.

I don't know what the "real" effect will be on the game for you as far as how much it can and should cripple the Russian war economy. A lot will depend on how much of a stockpile there is. I suspect it will be less than you may think in terms of immediate results. The German war machine didn't cease when Rumania fell, which was the Germans largest oil source.

Germany was creating an enormous amount of synthetic fuel at that point however. It wasn't enough, even in combination with the Romanian oil fields, to fuel the entire Wehrmacht, but it certainly helped. I'm fairly certain the USSR did not have the capability to do so.

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 5/29/2012 5:50:51 PM

Flaviusx

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The reserve Soviet oil capacity was located in the USA.

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 5/29/2012 5:52:13 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzer Meyer
Germany was creating an enormous amount of synthetic fuel at that point however. It wasn't enough, even in combination with the Romanian oil fields, to fuel the entire Wehrmacht, but it certainly helped. I'm fairly certain the USSR did not have the capability to do so.

But the Sovs developed other sources of oil in the Volga region, Ural Mountains, Kazakhstan and Central Asia.

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 5/29/2012 10:05:13 PM

Klydon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzer Meyer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Baku is the largest (but by no means only) source of oil.

I don't know what the "real" effect will be on the game for you as far as how much it can and should cripple the Russian war economy. A lot will depend on how much of a stockpile there is. I suspect it will be less than you may think in terms of immediate results. The German war machine didn't cease when Rumania fell, which was the Germans largest oil source.

Germany was creating an enormous amount of synthetic fuel at that point however. It wasn't enough, even in combination with the Romanian oil fields, to fuel the entire Wehrmacht, but it certainly helped. I'm fairly certain the USSR did not have the capability to do so.

The Russians did not, but they had other sources not in the Caucasus.

By the time Rumania fell, the synth industry was pretty much rubble as it was very easy to spot and very vulnerable to strategic air power. It was also pretty much top priority on the bombing list of "things to bomb" as far as the Western Allies were concerned in the rightful notion that the entire Wehrmacht would be affected, including the Luftwaffe.

Make no mistake, it would have hurt the Russians greviously to lose the oil resources there, but it would have taken awhile for it to take effect and it wasn't like the Germans were going to do anything with it either since the rail lines were a mess and the Germans didn't even have close to enough rolling stock to move it even if the rail lines were not a mess.

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 5/29/2012 10:21:16 PM

Panzer Meyer

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Quite right Klydon. A quick check of some sources reveals that by 1944 Germany was producing almost 60% of its oil and 100% of its aviation fuel synthetically. The allied bombing campaign almost completely wiped out synthetic production capacity by the fall of that same year. Coupled with the successful bombing of Ploesti and eventually the loss of Romania, Germany was literally paralyzed.

However I think a similar fate would have befallen the Soviet Union if they were to lose the Caucasus. I'll have to double check when I get home, but I am fairly certain that 80% or more of all Soviet oil production came from that region.

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 5/29/2012 10:24:19 PM

Flaviusx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzer Meyer

However I think a similar fate would have befallen the Soviet Union if they were to lose the Caucasus. I'll have to double check when I get home, but I am fairly certain that 80% or more of all Soviet oil production came from that region.

Not unless Germany can park a panzer army in Texas.

Lend Lease would've made up any shortfall in oil. Although this would have come at the expense of other shipments, presumably.

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 5/29/2012 11:53:57 PM

Aurelian

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http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/32_folder/32_articles/32_ww22.html

Because of the crisis, the State Defense Committee decided to transfer the main forces of oil-workers and oil enterprises of Baku to the regions of Volga, Ural Mountains, Kazakhstan and Central Asia for the enforcement of the oil extraction there. In October, 1942, more than ten thousand oil workers left for these eastern parts.

All the nine drilling offices, oil-expedition and oil-construction trusts as well as various other enterprises with their staffs were transferred to an area near Kuybishev, (Russia Federation in Tartarstan near the Ural Mountains north of Kazakhstan). This city soon came to be known as "the Second Baku" as highly qualified specialists and masters in oil industry were sent there along with more than 5,000 workers as well as half of the equipment.

Despite the severe frost the drillers started searching for oil. Winter was over but spring brought torrential rains and flooding. The small river, Kinel, overflowed its banks and the water rose 3-4 meters, flooding the mouths of wells, causing considerable loss of oil. The Bakuis, who were up to their waists in the icy water, defended the wells. All in all, with such determined efforts, the new Bakuis in the region of Povolzhye, increased the fuel extraction in "Kinelneft" trust that first year by 66% and by 42% in entire region of Kuybishev.

They did it the "Bakui way" which meant not allowing the decrease of oil extraction or cessation of drilling in winter; working in winter as hard as in summer, working at night as much as in daytime; and generally increasing the oil extraction by any means possible. As a result, five new oil and gas fields were discovered and huge oil refinery construction projects were undertaken, including the first pipe line between Kuybishev and Buturslan was built that same year. The pipeline rendered a tremendous service to defense factories saving them the trouble of importing coal and mazut (black oil) from remote places.

A number of large modern oil refineries were also built in Kuybishev. But the most significant assistance that Bakuis gave was in extracting oil from the Devonian Strata in Kuybishev for the first time (June 9, 1944). This historical event marked the beginning of industrial development unprecedented in its volume. It made it possible to restore oil extraction to pre-war levels and Russia became the largest oil industry power in the entire world.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 5/30/2012 12:03:28 AM >

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 5/30/2012 12:06:09 AM

Farfarer61

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So, no, Baku and Ploesti have no effect on the game that I have found. Against the Soviet AI, I even laid track and rebuilt all of Baku's facilities, but it made little difference, save perhaps to the umodelled Naval Forces.

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 5/31/2012 7:54:51 PM

johnnyvagas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzer Meyer

However I think a similar fate would have befallen the Soviet Union if they were to lose the Caucasus. I'll have to double check when I get home, but I am fairly certain that 80% or more of all Soviet oil production came from that region.

Not unless Germany can park a panzer army in Texas.

Lend Lease would've made up any shortfall in oil. Although this would have come at the expense of other shipments, presumably.

And the United States would presumably produce a fleet of oil tankers out of thin air to bring this oil to the USSR. The United States had issues in 1942 thru early 1943 keeping its Pacific Fleet supplied with bunker fuel because of an extreme shortage of tankers. Yet the USA would apparently � under your nonsensical blathering�s about fuel and fuel supplies � have the magical capability to instantly keep the Red Army, Red Air Force and Red Industry topped off with fuel, oil, lubricants and etc. after Baku is lost? Please. You really haven't the foggiest idea as to the magitude involved with such an undertaking.

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 5/31/2012 8:12:35 PM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: johnnyvagas

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzer Meyer

However I think a similar fate would have befallen the Soviet Union if they were to lose the Caucasus. I'll have to double check when I get home, but I am fairly certain that 80% or more of all Soviet oil production came from that region.

Not unless Germany can park a panzer army in Texas.

Lend Lease would've made up any shortfall in oil. Although this would have come at the expense of other shipments, presumably.

And the United States would presumably produce a fleet of oil tankers out of thin air to bring this oil to the USSR. The United States had issues in 1942 thru early 1943 keeping its Pacific Fleet supplied with bunker fuel because of an extreme shortage of tankers. Yet the USA would apparently � under your nonsensical blathering�s about fuel and fuel supplies � have the magical capability to instantly keep the Red Army, Red Air Force and Red Industry topped off with fuel, oil, lubricants and etc. after Baku is lost? Please. You really haven't the foggiest idea as to the magitude involved with such an undertaking.

You do know that the war in Europe was priotity #1? Doubtfull.

I don't have the exact number handy, (the book is in the car and I'm not), but between 2-3 million tons of oil was sent by lend lease.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 6/3/2012 3:40:45 PM >

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 5/31/2012 8:18:31 PM

Flaviusx

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Adjustments would have to be made, no doubt. But it would have happened.

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 5/31/2012 8:32:46 PM

glvaca

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I'm with the camp that capturing baku would have serious consequences for the Soviet war machine. It would certainly have put them back by years.

As others have remarked, having the crude is one thing, refining it is something else, getting it to were it can be used is again something else entirely. The logistics involved in moving huge amount of refined oil products to the Soviets are breathtaking!

It would have had serious effects, period.

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 5/31/2012 9:17:25 PM

Brandle

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Can we use the editor to adjust and limit the other sources of oil on the map to make Baku and/or Ploesti more important?

Although I have not playted German yet, it seems like we dont need any more modifications to make their life harder.

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 5/31/2012 9:26:50 PM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

I'm with the camp that capturing baku would have serious consequences for the Soviet war machine. It would certainly have put them back by years.

As others have remarked, having the crude is one thing, refining it is something else, getting it to were it can be used is again something else entirely. The logistics involved in moving huge amount of refined oil products to the Soviets are breathtaking!

It would have had serious effects, period.

Maybe. But Kuybuyshev made up for it.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 5/31/2012 9:28:18 PM >

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 5/31/2012 9:26:52 PM

glvaca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brandle

Can we use the editor to adjust and limit the other sources of oil on the map to make Baku and/or Ploesti more important?

Although I have not playted German yet, it seems like we dont need any more modifications to make their life harder.

Not sure about the editor but I have my doubts. Others will be better placed to answer that.

Play the Germans first before coming to conclusions. Read the AAR's too. The Sovs don't exactly have a pick-nick in 1941! But this isn't about balance for me. More about the correct effects of a successful strategy by the Germans which deserves to be rewarded.

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 5/31/2012 9:28:38 PM

glvaca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

I'm with the camp that capturing baku would have serious consequences for the Soviet war machine. It would certainly have put them back by years.

As others have remarked, having the crude is one thing, refining it is something else, getting it to were it can be used is again something else entirely. The logistics involved in moving huge amount of refined oil products to the Soviets are breathtaking!

It would have had serious effects, period.

Maybe. But Kuybuyshev made up for it.

".....As a result, five new oil and gas fields were discovered and huge oil refinery construction projects were undertaken, including the first pipe line between Kuybishev and Buturslan was built that same year. The pipeline rendered a tremendous service to defense factories saving them the trouble of importing coal and mazut (black oil) from remote places.

A number of large modern oil refineries were also built in Kuybishev. But the most significant assistance that Bakuis gave was in extracting oil from the Devonian Strata in Kuybishev for the first time (June 9, 1944). This historical event marked the beginning of industrial development unprecedented in its volume. It made it possible to restore oil extraction to pre-war levels and Russia became the largest oil industry power in the entire world."

There is quite a difference between discovering oil, and actually producing enough to replace the lost production which takes years of devellopment.
I'm not arguing the Sovs would have lost the war without Baku oil, I am saying it would have put them back for years.

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 6/3/2012 3:07:39 PM

Fishbed

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Men, do a search (if it works ^^), the topic was discussed a couple times with (in my opinion) sound arguments and numbers. The fall of Baku wouldn't have impacted Russian's fighting ability as early as you may expect (they had stockpiled a little bit...) and wouldn't have benefited Nazi Germany before quite a long, long time. In a way or another, it is not something that important from a gaming point of view considering the scale of WitE.

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 6/3/2012 3:37:02 PM

Aurelian

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Oil production at Baku decreased during the war. In 1942 only 15.7 million tons of oil were produced. In 1943 - 12.7 million tons, in 1944 - 11.8 million tons, and in 1945 - already 11.5 million tons.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 6/3/2012 5:28:25 PM >

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 6/4/2012 3:20:31 AM

kg_1007

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I think , no offense, but it is ridiculous to assume that oil"manufacturing" can be transported, in the same way as a factory..oil must actually be A)discovered(not an easy thing, then B) successfully drilled(harder)..as an example, with far greater technology now in the 21st century, new discoveries of oil take, on average, 5yrs to actually have an output. To assume that the Soviets could simply transfer non existent "factories" (oil is not produced, hence the " " ) and then magically gain other oil at another unexplored site with no drilling equipment set up, etc..is incredibly fictional...NOW..having said that,...
The German armies who in reality reached the Caucasus in '42, would also have taken some years to actually show any gain from capturing oil fields, especially as the Soviets destroyed the only oil fields the Germans managed to get.
Second.. despite Europe being the primary theater, the United States had no ability in 1942 to transport anywhere near enough oil to fuel the Red Army...mostly American resources were aimed towards trying to assemble a force in Britain, and trying to push the British to launch an invasion of the mainland. Even with a great effort there, it still took many months for the US to have enough fuel delivered to supply several Corps on the island of Britain, whats more trying to fuel an army that dwarfed them in size(the Red Army)..any such effort by the US Navy would have far delayed their own landings, with likely far worse consequences for the Red Army.

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 6/4/2012 3:54:16 AM

kg_1007

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brandle

Can we use the editor to adjust and limit the other sources of oil on the map to make Baku and/or Ploesti more important?

Although I have not playted German yet, it seems like we dont need any more modifications to make their life harder.

I have done this, but really will require a lot of testing to see what impact it has..in general the logistics, along with everything associated with them, in this game is the weak point, despite that it is also very obvious that a great deal of work went into making them. I do hold out hope that it will improve through WiW, and then a "lessons learned" type of deal in a future WiE2

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 6/4/2012 4:12:36 PM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kg_1007

I think , no offense, but it is ridiculous to assume that oil"manufacturing" can be transported, in the same way as a factory..oil must actually be A)discovered(not an easy thing, then B) successfully drilled(harder)..as an example, with far greater technology now in the 21st century, new discoveries of oil take, on average, 5yrs to actually have an output. To assume that the Soviets could simply transfer non existent "factories" (oil is not produced, hence the " " ) and then magically gain other oil at another unexplored site with no drilling equipment set up, etc..is incredibly fictional...NOW..having said that,...
The German armies who in reality reached the Caucasus in '42, would also have taken some years to actually show any gain from capturing oil fields, especially as the Soviets destroyed the only oil fields the Germans managed to get.
Second.. despite Europe being the primary theater, the United States had no ability in 1942 to transport anywhere near enough oil to fuel the Red Army...mostly American resources were aimed towards trying to assemble a force in Britain, and trying to push the British to launch an invasion of the mainland. Even with a great effort there, it still took many months for the US to have enough fuel delivered to supply several Corps on the island of Britain, whats more trying to fuel an army that dwarfed them in size(the Red Army)..any such effort by the US Navy would have far delayed their own landings, with likely far worse consequences for the Red Army.

Oil *was* discovered. And exploited at Second Baku.

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 6/4/2012 4:21:10 PM

Flaviusx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kg_1007

I think , no offense, but it is ridiculous to assume that oil"manufacturing" can be transported, in the same way as a factory..oil must actually be A)discovered(not an easy thing, then B) successfully drilled(harder)..as an example, with far greater technology now in the 21st century, new discoveries of oil take, on average, 5yrs to actually have an output. To assume that the Soviets could simply transfer non existent "factories" (oil is not produced, hence the " " ) and then magically gain other oil at another unexplored site with no drilling equipment set up, etc..is incredibly fictional...NOW..having said that,...
The German armies who in reality reached the Caucasus in '42, would also have taken some years to actually show any gain from capturing oil fields, especially as the Soviets destroyed the only oil fields the Germans managed to get.
Second.. despite Europe being the primary theater, the United States had no ability in 1942 to transport anywhere near enough oil to fuel the Red Army...mostly American resources were aimed towards trying to assemble a force in Britain, and trying to push the British to launch an invasion of the mainland. Even with a great effort there, it still took many months for the US to have enough fuel delivered to supply several Corps on the island of Britain, whats more trying to fuel an army that dwarfed them in size(the Red Army)..any such effort by the US Navy would have far delayed their own landings, with likely far worse consequences for the Red Army.

All true. But I hardly think the United States would have thrown up its hands and done nothing in response to Soviet oil shortages. It was well understood by the American leadership (except for perhaps Ernest King) that keeping Russia in the war was vital.

I would expect drastic changes in strategy in these circumstances. Perhaps no torch at all, for starters. (Those forces going to Persia, instead, to forestall any Axis movement in that direction.) Stalin might well extend an invitation to direct allied involved in the east front. (An offer had already been made, and ignored, along these lines in 1941.)

I simply do not understand this myopic attempt at alternate history where the Western Allies stick to the historic script while events elsewhere take a different direction.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 6/4/2012 4:26:35 PM >

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 6/4/2012 4:41:18 PM

glvaca

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Common guys, losing Baku would have had serious effects on the Allied war effort. Be that in shifting strategy or the Soviets having to economize on gaz at least for several month if not years before the measures taken would have had full effect.

You mention no Torch. Torch was a serious drain on Axis resources. Not having one would basically make Normandy in 44 even more risky. Perhaps pushing the invasion back a year. If that aren't serious consequence I don't know what. If your counter arguement is now going to be that is out of the scope of the game, then I would argue it is not and the Axis should receive a decent increase in replacements and reinforcements when they capture Baku. The bloody place has to be worth something.

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 6/5/2012 4:24:44 AM

kg_1007

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@ Flaviusx..
glvaca pointed out the key that I was saying, better than I did..I am not saying America would have thrown up its hands, or even that there would not have been another way found..what I am saying, is that it would have drastically altered the future course of the war. It likely would have taken until AFTER the war, even had the German side won, for THEM to have any benefit from Baku...but it would instantly have altered the Soviet side, and an attempt(you are correct, and attempts would have been made) to make up the lost resources on the part of the Americans, would have altered everything that happened in the west, and created many more serious questions there.
To assume that the western powers, or the Soviets, either one, was perhaps not giving 100% effort already, and had some magical point where..if they lost a city, NOW..they will give 100% to correct for it, is, I am sorry, just insulting and ridiculous...and even though I am certain that is not your intent, if you step back, and see your argument from a neutral perspective, that is what you are saying..So..the USA effort, already maxed out, was somehow still not "giving their all"..but if the Soviets lost Baku,..NOW they are going to give 100%?

edit: I also note this sentence.."I simply do not understand this myopic attempt at alternate history where the Western Allies stick to the historic script while events elsewhere take a different direction. " of yours as the same argument used by Axis supporters on this very forum, where it has been argued that if events in Russia (in game) take a different course than historical, why would one expect the same historic strategy(withdrawing units, TOE changes, etc) to be made by the (in game) German High Command.

< Message edited by kg_1007 -- 6/5/2012 4:44:17 AM >

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RE: CAUCASUS OIL - 6/10/2012 11:19:22 PM

mooreshawnm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kg_1007

... then B) successfully drilled(harder)..as an example, with far greater technology now in the 21st century, new discoveries of oil take, on average, 5yrs to actually have an output.

Regulation plays the majority of the role in that 5 year timeline. A country fighting for it's survival isn't going to have any procedures that slow production or create inefficiencies (or at the least these inefficiencies would be identified and eliminated ASAP). I know it borders on political and I appologize, but it is reality.

Shawn

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