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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> SP:WaW Training Center >> Knee Mortar's!

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Knee Mortar's! - 12/7/2002 1:03:49 AM

kevsharr

Posts: 88
Joined: 2/5/2002
From: Conyers, Georgia
Status: offline

I'd like some information on the use of these weapon's as used in sp-waw according to Eric Hammel in his book Munda Trail it is a spring actuated grenade launcher that is supposedly silent,one of the reason's for the jittery nerves suffered by the army unit's involved in the invasion.The only warning they got of it's use was a sputtering grenade falling in their midst.Is this modelled in SP?And can they be used indirectly?If so when they fire indirectly there would'nt be any smoke from there firing so they should be able to avoid counter-battery fire.And if you turn off all of the unit's other weapon's and fired direct it should take a while for the unit to be spotted.
I was just curious to see if anybody has investigated it's potential.

Post #: 1

- 12/7/2002 1:29:16 AM

rbrunsman

Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline

I always thought they worked just like the rifle grenades of the German and U.S. infantry squads (i.e. no indirect fire allowed).

I think they must be more powerful than just spring loaded because the range would be very very short with just a spring firing the round. And, I recall seeing a movie, or reading, or seeing a documentary sometime ago (ironclad reference, huh :rolleyes: ) that said U.S. soldiers who tried to use captured knee mortars would actually break their legs placing the device "on their knees" since, after all, they were called "knee mortars." The recoil would break your leg if you braced if against yourself.

Just my thought on the subject, no real answers, sorry.

(in reply to kevsharr)

Post #: 2

- 12/7/2002 1:36:43 AM

kevsharr

Posts: 88
Joined: 2/5/2002
From: Conyers, Georgia
Status: offline

Yes I have read the same thing,the name and the fact that the base plate was curved and would fit on top of the thigh led to those injuries.My reference library contain's only a small Japanese section compared to the amount of german material I've collected in the 34 year's since I was eleven.Guess I'll have to go a-Googleing!

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Post #: 3

- 12/7/2002 2:14:11 AM

kevsharr

Posts: 88
Joined: 2/5/2002
From: Conyers, Georgia
Status: offline

On second thought they must have indirect fire cap.'cause they are shown in the arty screen when you hit the shoot at hex with indirect fire button.
Also when I typed in "imperial japanese infantry weapon's of world war 2"on google it brought up some strange link's like something about Timothy Mcvey nothing about japanese weapon's.Anybody know of any good site's?

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Post #: 4

- 12/7/2002 2:49:42 AM

kevsharr

Posts: 88
Joined: 2/5/2002
From: Conyers, Georgia
Status: offline

Type 10 Grenade Discharger
Introduced Year : 1921
Caliber : 50 mm
Barrel Length : 240 mm
Length : 525 mm
Weight : 2.6 kg
Range : 175 m
Production Qty : 7,000
The armies in Europe developed the grenade discharger attached to the rifle. However, Japanese Army developed the independant grenade discharger. Type 10 was enouth light for infantry to carry, and its range is superior to the rifle grenade discharger.

A right illustration shows the usage of the grenade discharger. Keeping the discharger at 45 degrees of elevation, remove a safty pin of the grenade and insert the grenade into the discharger. By pulling a trigger, the grenade is launched. Though the Japanese grenade discharger is known as "Knee Motar", it never stands on knee. The shooting range can be adjusted by the ring around the bottom of the barrel which changes the size of a hole through which the bursting gas leaks.

Type 89 Grenade Discharger
Introduced Year : 1929
Caliber : 50 mm
Barrel Length : 248 mm
Length : 608 mm
Weight : 4.7 kg
Range : 650 m (In case of Type 89 Grenade), 190 m (In case of Normal Grenades)
Differently from Type 10, the barrel of Type 89 is rifled and the special grenade(Type 89 Grenade, see right photo) was provided for Type 89 discharger. The kill of Type 89 Grenade was three times as much as that of the normal grenade.
Type 89 was heavier than Type 10, but it cauld be disassembled into three components and three men of a grenade discharger unit carried each component. Each Japanese infantry platoon was equipped with three or four grenade dischargers. Type 89 Grenade Discharger was very effective especially in the jungle, because it could be easily transported by infantry and it could fire beyond the obstacles in the jungle. The Americans on the south Pacific islands were very much troubled with the Japanese grenade discharger.
Finally found something on the mortar from "Taki's Homepage" a interesting site on the Japanese Army and weapon's.
I guess Eric should have researched this subject some more this is somewhat bothersome especialy since I quoted him I guess it just goes to show you can't rely on one reference book

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- 12/7/2002 5:35:46 AM

Irinami

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline

I remember reading--I don't recall where--they were referred to as "Knee Mortars" in part because they were/could be carried with the weight resting on the thigh (or "knee").

Knee Mortars in the game...

Ever played US and gotten the 60mm Mortar unit that has 3 Mortars and a Garand? Ever get ticked that you couldn't direct fire with them even though 2 of the 60mm's were still full, but the #1 slot was empty? Same deal with Knee Mortars.

The Knee Mortar unit is an infantry combat support unit. With the speed of a Weapons section, it can keep up with the front under all but the most extreme of marches (you know, the sort that you should've brought trucks for). Their loadout, in VIDEO-GAME TERMS, is 1 direct/indirect fire 50mm Knee Mortar, 2 direct-fire-only 50mm Knee Mortars, and 1 cluster of 5x infantry rifles. (For Nationalist Chinese, they are 1d/idf Knee Mortar, 1dfo KM, 1 infantry rifle, and 1 set of hand grenades.

The Knee Mortar has a very short range. It is not standard artillery in the sense that it could be used effectively to support another Platoon: in general, it cannot. These weapons are best utilized by the Platoon commander (or KM Section commander) to suppress soft targets or for area-denial fire. They are almost useless against armour in anything but an assault role.

Their power is in the direct-fire role, in my opinion. 3 attempts to hit with a good-sized grenade, plus an attempt to hit with an entire 5x rifle cluster, is going to make any infantry or soft-truck unit think twice about going anywhere but home. Add that to, for example, a platoon's small arms fire (in some formations which will include 1 KM in the platoon HQ and possibly 1 in every squad), and you have a lot of HE flying at the enemy--150mm from the KM unit alone!

Another benefit of the KM squad is that, unlike most other mortars, it can defend itself. Not only with the KM's, but also with the 5x rifle cluster. Similar to the (I believe) US Army Mech Mortar Section which packs a handful of Garands, they are not something to be trifled with in the direct-fire combat.

They CAN be used in indirect-fire, but considering their radio rarity and their very short range, it is often unlikely that they will both be in range and in contact. Even so, sometimes the unit itself can call in it's artillery (which in most cases makes sense).

_____________________________

Newbies!!
Wild Bill's Tanks at Munda Mini-Campaign. The training campaign for comb

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Post #: 6

- 12/8/2002 12:56:10 AM

Major Destruction

Posts: 881
Joined: 8/10/2000
From: Canada
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I posted a reply on this subject under the discussion "this is rediculous!"

To add to that, if the KM unit has 3 men per tube for transportation purposes, (remember, the Japanese army was very labour intensive) so when the KM's are firing, those other men are using their rifles in support. Hence the Riflex5 weapon slot. I suppose the nineth man is moving ammo. :)

IMO, the 3 tube KM unit is very well modelled. :D

Be careful, though that you manage you ammunition supply carefully to avoid losing the ability to fire direct once the first ammo slot is exhausted.

_____________________________

They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

Julius Caesar, 57 BC

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Post #: 7

- 12/8/2002 9:57:55 AM

Jim1954

Posts: 1393
Joined: 5/15/2002
From: Dallas
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Straight from the Megacampaigns mouth: MCWT Battle # 2 (Tanambogo- An Ugly Finish) the rock causeway assault with additional aux. landings on NE side of island. Anyway I got several messages from the AI that "knee mortars firing indirect range 320ms. At least the AI can use them in an indirect fire mode but on this little bit of island on the North end range is not a big issue. I got 4 messages so I don't know if it was one mortar and 4 shots or 4 mortars each with one shot.

Hope this is of some help.

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Post #: 8

- 12/8/2002 11:22:29 AM

Redleg

Posts: 1805
Joined: 5/23/2000
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The Japanese knee mortars are unique among the weaponry in SPWAW.

There are two types; one which is a supplemental weapon in certain Japanese squads. These puppies can only fire direct, much like a very good rifle grenade.

The other type is a separate knee mortar squad. These can fire indirect or direct; however much like ordinary light mortars, the AI will not fire them often unless they are part of a very good unit.

The Japanese knee mortars and the Soviet 50mm mortars are among my favorite weapons in SPWAW - they both offer a level of fire support not found among other weapons.

When a mortar section has more than 1 tube, the first tube will fire indirect; the 2d and 3d tubes do not. Thus, a mortar section with multiple tubes makes for a great source of direct fire support for suppression.

There are other multi-tube mortar sections in the game - some of the larger-bore mortars are even more powerful as direct-fire weapons.

I just play-tested one of Fradar's scenarios with long visibility and the 81mm mortars provided superb fire-support in that scenario since I could blast the enemy at 30+ hexes with no delay.

Check 'em out - very worthwhile. I only wish that they were more likely to fire in self-defense when attacked.

(in reply to kevsharr)

Post #: 9

- 12/8/2002 12:17:17 PM

kevsharr

Posts: 88
Joined: 2/5/2002
From: Conyers, Georgia
Status: offline

I started a long camp. as the marines in sept.42 my first battle was listed as a advance but was titled bloody ridge.My setup line was very close to the objectives but the movement allowance is only one hex and as far as I can see the visibility is extremly short[well it is 3 in the morning]I took the obj.'s and tried to set up a perimeter but the japanese started assaulting me,and I mean assaulting me,wave after wave of inf. and snlf supported by very accurate indirect knee mortar fire and heavy mortar's,and 75mm type 38 howitzer fire.I've pounded their approuch lanes with lot's of 60 and 81mm mortar's but it doesn't seem to have slowed them down,even tried counter battery fire against their mortar position's which are evident from the patches of smoke behind his lines but his km's keep pouring it on.Out of ten tank's I have they've knocked out four of them in close assault's.These Jap's are tough I think there the only nationality that can hurt you when their retreating,I had one unit retreat out of a v hex and I followed him up and bang special op fire,4 casualties and my unit threw smoke and took off.And this is only turn 13 of a 32 turn game,I think I'm sc***ed!

(in reply to kevsharr)

Post #: 10

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