Best way to get Pz Div's back to 'tracked' movement?

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Best way to get Pz Div's back to 'tracked' movement? - 8/10/2012 5:47:07 AM

sandman2575

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One of the frustrating things about taking losses with the armored regiments of your panzer divisions is that, when you lose enough transports, the panzers are forced to move with "foot" speed.

Is there a way to remedy this -- beyond setting Repl. to "Priority" and hoping some trucks/halftracks will eventually trickle in?

Does the "More Trucks" replacement card deliver half-tracks as well as trucks? There's no separate card for halftracks. The "More Panzers" card gives you replacement tanks (of course) and tank destroyers, but i've never seen it give halftracks.

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RE: Best way to get Pz Div's back to 'tracked' movement? - 8/10/2012 5:56:07 AM

aspqrz02

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That's interesting. It's the way it works in ATG, but I never thought about it in DCCB.

Historically, of course, it was not often, if ever, a problem ... or not for very long ... as the Divisional Commander normally reorganised things to create a separate Armoured Kampfgruppe with whatever Infantry that had transport working with it, if not attached to it ... in ATG you could have simply transferred elements within each Regiment/Brigade or whatever to work this out ... but you can't in DCCB ... maybe there should be a way to do this, but, I suspect, it would be seen as adding needless complexity to the game system, assuming it's even possible.

And, of course, it would almost certainly be open to abuse! And how would the AI manage with it ... a nontrivial matter to work out, I suspect

Phil

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RE: Best way to get Pz Div's back to 'tracked' movement? - 8/10/2012 6:31:21 AM

aspqrz02

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Actually, looking at my copy of the US War Department's "Handbook of German Military Forces" TM-E 30.451 (1944) it gives the organisation of a Panzer Division as follows ...

Panzer Regiment (HQ, HQ Coy, AA Platoon, 2 Panzer Battalions, Tank Maintenance Coy)
Panzer Grenadier Regiment (Mech) (HQ, HQ Coy, PzGr Bn (Mech), PzGr Ban (Mot), SP Inf Howitzer Coy, Engineer Coy (Mech), Support Coy)
Panzer Grenadier Regiment (Mot) (HQ, HQ Coy, 2 x PzGr Bn (Mot). SP Inf Howitzer Coy, Engineer Coy (Track), Support Coy)
Armoured Artillery Regiment (HQ, HQ Btry, Mixed SP Artillery Bn, Medium Artillery Bn, Light Artillery Bn)

Armoured Recon Battalion (HQ, HQ Coy, Armoured Car Coy, Lt. Armoured Recon Coy, Armoured Recon Coy, Heavy Weapon Coy, Support Coy)
AA Battalion ( HQ, HQ Btry, 2 x Hvy AA Btry, Lt AA Btry, Lt AA CLM)
AT Battalion (HQ, HQ Btry, 2 x 75mm SPAT Coy, 1 x 75mm AT Coy (Mot), Support Coy)
Armoured Engineer Battalion (HQ, HQ Coy, 2 x Engineer Coy (Mot), 1 x Engineer Coy (Mech), BR CLM K OR J)

A Panzer Grenadier Division has ...

Panzer Battalion (HQ, HQ Coy, 3 x Panzer Coy, 1 x Support Coy)
2 x Panzer Grenadier Regiments (Motorised ... as Panzer Division)
Armoured Artillery Regiment (as per Panzer Division)

AA Battalion, AT Battalion, Armoured Engineer Battalion (all as per Panzer Division)

But compare this to the TO&E for a Panzer Division in DCCB ...

2 x Panzer Grenadier Regiments (1800 Infantry, 120 Halftrack, 10 Lt AT, 10 Heavy AT, 5 Mdm Artillery, 5 Tank Destroyer, 250 Truck, 10 Lt AA)
1 x Panzer Regiment (400 Infantry, 10 Lt Flak, 90 Lt Tank, 45 Medium Tank, 60 Halfrtrack)
1 x Panzer Artillery Regiment (400 Infantry, 20 Medium Artillery, 10 Heavy Artillery, 10 Heavy Flak, 10 Light Flak, 150 Trucks)

and a PanzerGrenadier Division ...

2 x PanzerGrenadier Regiments (1800 Infantry, 120 Halftrack, 10 Lt AT, 10 Heavy AT, 5 Mdm Artillery, 5 Tank Destroyer, 250 Truck, 10 Lt AA)
1 x Panzer Battalion (20 Medium Tanks, 45 Lt Tanks)
1 x Panzer Artillery Regiment (400 Infantry, 20 Medium Artillery, 10 Heavy Artillery, 10 Heavy Flak, 10 Light Flak, 150 Trucks)

Now, yes, FM 30.451 is nominally 1944 (pre- D-Day) but the TO&Es are from 1943, largely ... so they will be broadly correct.

Note the anomalies.

The Panzer Division, in reality, should simply have 2 x Tank Battalions, with minimal support (Trucks and Staff) and should, therefore, never, ever, have to worry about being slowed down to infantry speed unless it wants to be.

Only 1 Battalion of three in the Panzer Division's PzGr Regiments is in Halftracks, the other three are in Trucks.

So, the DCCB TO&E is way out.

Likewise the DCCB TO&E for PzGr Divisions - they should have no Halftrack infantry, it should all be Motorised.

And the AT and AA Battalions are, presumably, spread amongst the four Regiments. The Recon and Armoured Engineer Battalions have just disappeared (?) or are subsumed into the three line Regiments. The Artillery Regiment should have no Infantry at all.

Some of these decisions are probably justifiable. But, I would contend, not the adding of Infantry to the Panzer Regiment in the Panzer Division, and not giving Halftracks to all the PanzerGrenadier Regiments ... for a start.

Yes. Probably it all balances out in game terms. I'm just saying ... YMMV ...

Phil

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RE: Best way to get Pz Div's back to 'tracked' movement? - 8/10/2012 8:06:30 AM

KenchiSulla

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Unless it can't bring its spares, ammunition and fuel due to vehicle shortages..

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RE: Best way to get Pz Div's back to 'tracked' movement? - 8/10/2012 8:34:59 AM

Pawsy

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I regular harbour up my Pz Divs when then they get to 75% and rest them in a supply for a turn not in contact with the enemy. This allows them to repair and reconstitute themselves. I rarely if ever use them for direct combat. They encircle and cut lines of communication so attrition is low. The Inf Divs do the attacks.

I think organising through a 'tactical' pause is realistic way to reconstitute the units? I have taken styalingrad and Pz Divs are all about 85% or better. My allies prove very useful at mopping up cut off units.

Rather than frustrating I think its accurate to show units becoming less combat effective after prolonged combat.

< Message edited by starbuck310 -- 8/10/2012 8:36:01 AM >

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RE: Best way to get Pz Div's back to 'tracked' movement? - 8/10/2012 8:41:10 AM

Pawsy

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Dont quite agree as the combat supplies would be on trucks so its more accurate to look at a combat day and a replen of fuel, water, ammo and rations by truck. The crews themselves require rest and the tanks maintenance. Logistics hand brake!

I think the logistic drag is quite good in the game. If indeed a little too easy. Rates of advance are a bit too fast IMHO.

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RE: Best way to get Pz Div's back to 'tracked' movement? - 8/10/2012 8:45:11 AM

Forever

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An interesting problem
The question is how the game can get half truck?

Vic?

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RE: Best way to get Pz Div's back to 'tracked' movement? - 8/10/2012 8:57:24 AM

Vic

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Hi all,

As for the core question: yes the way to get mobile again is to put them on priority replacements and buy the truck card... or if out of pp to set the repl setting to disband of another unit with lots of trucks/halftracks.

As for the oob comments... yes i think they are correct but since non of the other units have halftracks i sort of made an abstraction giving the pz div some more than historical to compensate. maybe to much so. i will seriously consider changing this with a patch after i have patched out all the bugs and more severe issues. thanks for pointing this out though.

best
vic

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RE: Best way to get Pz Div's back to 'tracked' movement? - 8/10/2012 3:10:39 PM

Redmarkus5

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Hi Vic,

If you are thinking about patching the OOBs, maybe we can have a single thread to capture everyone's thoughts? There are a lot of excellent opinions in various threads here.

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RE: Best way to get Pz Div's back to 'tracked' movement? - 8/10/2012 3:16:26 PM

sandman2575

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Thanks for the clarification Vic --

Fascinating info. about the historical TO&E --

I wonder if a simple work-around is the have the Panzer Division armored regiments simply have tanks, which is the case in-game with the Motorized Wehr and SS Div's -- their armored reg's are 100% tanks. Still, there is something to be said for having native infantry in the armored reg's, which certainly bolsters them defensively.

Overall though this really only handicaps the German player, yes? Soviet tank Bn's, Brigades, and Corps all have 100% tank components.

EDIT -- exception being the Soviet tank destroyer brigades, which are mixed -

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RE: Best way to get Pz Div's back to 'tracked' movement? - 8/10/2012 3:41:07 PM

aspqrz02

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See, the problem is what, exactly, you're trying to do with the units as much as what's actually in their TO&E.

Or, putting it another way, AT Artillery units will never be deployed (not deliberately, anyway) alone. They will always be deployed with infantry. Just like separate Artillery units won't ever (deliberately) be deployed in the front line, always in the rear.

Tanks will never be deployed, operationally, by themselves - they'll always be deployed as part of a combined arms team. So the Panzer Regiment shouldn't have infantry, but should be deployed with at least one of the PanzerGrenadier Regiments.

You could, alternately, deploy the two Battalions of the Panzer Regiment one each with the two PanzerGrenadier Regiments, deleting the separate Panzer Regiment, and replacing that with a composite Armoured Cavalry/Armoured Engineer/SPAT "Regiment" from those separate Battalions. Or you could have two composite Panzer/PanzerGrenadier Regiments, one with a single Panzer and a single PzGr (Mech) Battalion as the basis, the other with a single Panzer and a single PzGr (Mot) as its basis, with a third "Regiment" as a PzGr (Mot) one with the remaining two PzGr (Mot) Battalions, perhaps with the Aufklarung's Battalion attached.

Really, however, you probably should have the PzGr Regiments as Regiments, and the Panzer, Aufklarungs, Armoured Engineer and SPAT as separate Battalions ... but that would really increase the number of units in play.

Otherwise, regardless of how you split the Divisional Assets up, to be "realistic" involves unpalatable compromises with an easy split of units into four "Regiments".

No easy solution AFAICT.

Phil

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RE: Best way to get Pz Div's back to 'tracked' movement? - 8/10/2012 4:43:12 PM

sandman2575

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

As for the oob comments... yes i think they are correct but since non of the other units have halftracks i sort of made an abstraction giving the pz div some more than historical to compensate. maybe to much so. i will seriously consider changing this with a patch after i have patched out all the bugs and more severe issues. thanks for pointing this out though.

best
vic

But if I understand this correctly -- that the Pz Div's have *too many* halftracks -- reducing this amount will only exacerbate the problem of Armored regiments being forced to "Foot Speed" due to losses.

I can't quite work out how many infantry a single halftrack unit 'carries'.

But it does seem quite common that once you've taken even moderate losses in your halftrack elements, your tanks are reduced to Foot Speed.

I had the case last night where I had Prioritized a 'foot speed' Panzer Division. Finally some new halftracks came in, allowing the Regiment to move again at "Tracked Speed." However, a single battle later, it was back down to "Foot Speed" because of losses in that single battle. That's pretty frustrating.

The related problem I'm finding is that it's pretty much invariably the Armored regiment of the Panzer Div's that reduce quickly to Foot Speed -- the other 3 regiments -- two grenadiers and the Arty -- seem to have much better motorized capacity, and aren't reduced to 'marching' so easily. Right now -- early August in the full Case Blue scenario -- about half my Panzer divisions have the single armored regiment at "Foot Speed." Their Grenadier regiments can easily outstrip them in terms of ground covered every turn.

In some ways, this creates an interesting dilemma -- do you let your Panzer Grenadier Regiments thrust forward, leaving the Armored Regiment behind out in order to quickly reach a goal? On the other hand, as others have pointed out, that seems unhistorical. How often --ever?-- did Panzer Divisions, the reasonably intact ones, wind up 'handicapped' speed-wise by their insufficiently supported Panzer regiments?

< Message edited by sandman2575 -- 8/10/2012 4:45:11 PM >

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RE: Best way to get Pz Div's back to 'tracked' movement? - 8/10/2012 4:58:00 PM

LiquidSky

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Didnt it become a practice in this time period for infantry to be carried by the tanks? Or was that just a russian thing?

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RE: Best way to get Pz Div's back to 'tracked' movement? - 8/10/2012 8:03:07 PM

bwheatley

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

See, the problem is what, exactly, you're trying to do with the units as much as what's actually in their TO&E.

Or, putting it another way, AT Artillery units will never be deployed (not deliberately, anyway) alone. They will always be deployed with infantry. Just like separate Artillery units won't ever (deliberately) be deployed in the front line, always in the rear.

Tanks will never be deployed, operationally, by themselves - they'll always be deployed as part of a combined arms team. So the Panzer Regiment shouldn't have infantry, but should be deployed with at least one of the PanzerGrenadier Regiments.

You could, alternately, deploy the two Battalions of the Panzer Regiment one each with the two PanzerGrenadier Regiments, deleting the separate Panzer Regiment, and replacing that with a composite Armoured Cavalry/Armoured Engineer/SPAT "Regiment" from those separate Battalions. Or you could have two composite Panzer/PanzerGrenadier Regiments, one with a single Panzer and a single PzGr (Mech) Battalion as the basis, the other with a single Panzer and a single PzGr (Mot) as its basis, with a third "Regiment" as a PzGr (Mot) one with the remaining two PzGr (Mot) Battalions, perhaps with the Aufklarung's Battalion attached.

Really, however, you probably should have the PzGr Regiments as Regiments, and the Panzer, Aufklarungs, Armoured Engineer and SPAT as separate Battalions ... but that would really increase the number of units in play.

Otherwise, regardless of how you split the Divisional Assets up, to be "realistic" involves unpalatable compromises with an easy split of units into four "Regiments".

No easy solution AFAICT.

Phil

Yea it will only take a turn or two of leaving Pz's alone to realize they are fragile and will get their asses kicked if you don't leave some infantry with them. :) Doesn't matter if you're playing as soviets or germans. Having the tank units w/o support is a recipe to get them picked off. They are much more fragile than people think if they don't have support. Like the poor tigers at kursk.

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RE: Best way to get Pz Div's back to 'tracked' movement? - 8/11/2012 2:06:55 AM

aspqrz02

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No, reducing the number of halftracks in a Panzer unit (Regiment in a Panzer Division and Battalion in a PanzerGrenadier Division) should have absolutely no effect ... for the simple reason that neither of them have any infantry at all, and, hence, need no halftracks (or trucks).

Of course, you'd generally be crazy to move the Panzers by themselves, as they are very poor at holding ground compared to infantry, considering their relative different costs to replace.

Of course, the way Panzer Regiments are organised in DCCB, it is a problem ... but with a proper TO&E it doesn't necessarily have to be. My preferred solution would be to have the Panzer Battalions modelled separately, as Panzer only formations, perhaps including the Divisional Aufklarungs Battalion as well, and then you, as commander, can choose when, where and under what circumstances you want to deploy them.

Phil

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RE: Best way to get Pz Div's back to 'tracked' movement? - 8/11/2012 2:11:04 AM

aspqrz02

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I believe, from memory, it was initially a big Russian thing because they didn't have enough Halftracks. All their Halftrtacks, until 1945, were US supplied M-3's, and they never had "enough" ... there has even been a suggestion in some quarters that the mumber of Russian Mech units was limited by the number of M-3's they had.

And all the Russian produced trucks were not off-road capable ... or minimally so ... so mechanised operations also relied on US and British supplied trucks which *were* off-road capable (or much more so than the Russian ones),

Which is not to say that the Germans didn't copy the idea, or that Infantry never rode, unauthorised, so to speak, on tanks ... especially on long road marches behind the lines ... but, afaik, it was only "doctrine" with the Russians. ISTR that the T-34 was even provided with handholds on the outer hull for infantry to hang onto (unless I'm mixing it up with another tank model).

Phil

< Message edited by aspqrz -- 8/11/2012 2:15:44 AM >

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RE: Best way to get Pz Div's back to 'tracked' movement? - 8/11/2012 2:13:10 AM

aspqrz02

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley
Yea it will only take a turn or two of leaving Pz's alone to realize they are fragile and will get their asses kicked if you don't leave some infantry with them. :) Doesn't matter if you're playing as soviets or germans. Having the tank units w/o support is a recipe to get them picked off. They are much more fragile than people think if they don't have support. Like the poor tigers at kursk.

Oh, yes. Indeed. Tanks can hold ground, poorly ... but the cost of doing so, in terms of scarce replacements, is much to high to do it regularly.

After all, Infantry can be replaced with unskilled labour

Phil

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