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Razing the Reich - 8/13/2012 12:06:48 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		This will be a periodical AAR in a similar format to my previous reports. I am Soviet and Pelton Axis. We have agreed to a return game after this game completes.

Alt 41CG scenario
Server game
Locked HQ Support
Non Random Weather
Full FOW

House Rules

No Para drops to break pockets or cut rail lines past 8 hexes from front( before moves).
No bombing of air bases more than 3 times a turn (after turn 1).
No bombing of HQ's when not stacked with combat units.
No landing west of S-Pol before 43.

I have received Pelton's turn 1. His turn one is pretty stock standard for him. He took out Riga and crossed the Daugava. In the Center a little conservative I thought in that he has no contact with Minsk so several units that I usually trap can escape. The usual Lvov pocket in the south but not to the extent I do. But overall a good, safe and solid opening move by Pelton.

He only took out 1700 a/c but I noted he has run several re-fuelling missions with level bombers and I am encountering a higher proportion of interdiction attacks, but on the main they do little damage and little if any reduction in MP.

My aims are the same as I stated in the game against glvaca. I won't be burning 100 AP moving AA units this time :)
Lake Janis stop line will be attempted again.
Maps coming when turn 2 is done.

< Message edited by Michael T -- 12/19/2013 9:06:46 PM >

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/13/2012 7:13:34 AM   
schascha


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Status: offline 		Good luck

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/13/2012 10:41:59 AM   
76mm


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Status: offline 		This should be interesting.

Are you going to repeat your "run-for-the=hills" strategy from your game vs glvaca? It is a shame that that game seems to have ended prematurely.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/13/2012 11:01:57 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Yes running will be the norm for the first half of the summer, bar Leningrad. Yes I am very dissapointed in the glvaca game. Perhaps he will return some day and we can resume it.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/13/2012 12:55:37 PM   
Manstein63


Posts: 688
Joined: 6/30/2010
Status: offline 		Michael,
You will need to plan your moves very carefully methinks. Pelton will probably only need one mistake on your part to unhinge you especially if you are going to be doing a full Sir Robinavitch.
Good Luck I will be watching this one very closely
Manstein63

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/13/2012 1:46:50 PM   
Flaviusx


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Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Pelton has fallen in love with a right hook maneuver to deal with Leningrad, and is making it work. Watch out for that. The defensive scheme you're using (and it is pretty much the same one I use) is designed to deal with a direct advance to the city itself to force the Neva ASAP. It may not work as well against an end run south of Lake Ilmen. Worse yet, the Axis has enough maneuverability to threaten you both north and south of Lake Ilmen and it's very hard to cover both approaches at once. Covering the direct approach is difficult enough.



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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/13/2012 2:54:27 PM   
bwheatley

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Pelton has fallen in love with a right hook maneuver to deal with Leningrad, and is making it work. Watch out for that. The defensive scheme you're using (and it is pretty much the same one I use) is designed to deal with a direct advance to the city itself to force the Neva ASAP. It may not work as well against an end run south of Lake Ilmen. Worse yet, the Axis has enough maneuverability to threaten you both north and south of Lake Ilmen and it's very hard to cover both approaches at once. Covering the direct approach is difficult enough.




Yea that's how abulbulian always liked to captured leningrad by right hook past ilmen. Isolating Leningrad into a slow death.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/13/2012 3:11:12 PM   
hfarrish

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Pelton has fallen in love with a right hook maneuver to deal with Leningrad, and is making it work. Watch out for that. The defensive scheme you're using (and it is pretty much the same one I use) is designed to deal with a direct advance to the city itself to force the Neva ASAP. It may not work as well against an end run south of Lake Ilmen. Worse yet, the Axis has enough maneuverability to threaten you both north and south of Lake Ilmen and it's very hard to cover both approaches at once. Covering the direct approach is difficult enough.




Based on my current Pelton game (where he did exactly that to me) my conclusion was that there wasn't much I could have done to stop it - you are better off guarding against a move to the South and not making a serious effort to hold the right hook. You have to guard against the direct advance in any case, and extra units thrown to try to stop an HQBU right hook are probably just extra pocket fodder. Not saying do nothing, but I wouldn't but a major effort into holding it.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/13/2012 3:18:02 PM   
bigbaba


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From: Koblenz, Germany
Status: offline 		normaly right hook is easier to defend then the direct attack on leningrad. the terrain provides great defensive CV to the russian units, the german flanks and supply route gets longer and longer and as soon he notices that pelton is going right he can thin the defense of leningrad and throw more stuff to the russian left flank east of novogrod.

but pelton isn't a normal player.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/13/2012 3:21:16 PM   
hfarrish

 

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I guess it depends on play style...if you are fighting forward (i.e. not trying to build defensive belts to the rear) then it could work since you'd have the requisite units to play with - but these days that is a pretty high risk strategem.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/13/2012 3:55:14 PM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

normaly right hook is easier to defend then the direct attack on leningrad. the terrain provides great defensive CV to the russian units, the german flanks and supply route gets longer and longer and as soon he notices that pelton is going right he can thin the defense of leningrad and throw more stuff to the russian left flank east of novogrod.

but pelton isn't a normal player.



Yeah, against anybody else I don't take this right hook seriously. But he somehow is making it work. Mostly due to the game's silly logistics. Pelton knows how to abuse it. (So does Michael, for that matter.)

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/13/2012 4:37:22 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Yes. Chain HQ buildups make the right hook possible in a quicker than normal timeframe = less issue for
Supply and less time for the SU player to get set.....

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/13/2012 11:01:49 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		After a narrow escape in the game against glvaca I will be adjusting my alignments around Leningrad. The game is with Pelton again.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/14/2012 1:34:33 AM   
mmarquo


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Status: offline 		Michael --> remember to use the reserve function...

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/14/2012 2:36:32 AM   
Farfarer61

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

normaly right hook is easier to defend then the direct attack on leningrad. the terrain provides great defensive CV to the russian units, the german flanks and supply route gets longer and longer and as soon he notices that pelton is going right he can thin the defense of leningrad and throw more stuff to the russian left flank east of novogrod.

but pelton isn't a normal player.




[Putting on my Axis player hat] None of us are normal players anymore :)

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/17/2012 4:22:41 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		End Soviet T2.

It would appear that Pelton is going all out for Leningrad. He has sent at least 7 Pz and 5 Mot Div's to Pskov and surrounds. Things look grim for Leningrad. But I will try to hold on for as long as I can. The flip side is that there is much less pressure on the central front. So no great retreat is required there yet. In the south we run.

Pelton seems more interested in gaining ground than in destroying Red Army units at this stage. I sense his strategy is based on taking out Leningrad very quickly and then redeploying for a huge charge on Moscow. In the south he was content to push as far forward as possible and ignored a bunch of Russians West of Kiev he could have cut off. I rail them out.

I have not had the rail cap in this game to evac as much ARM Ind as I did in the glvaca game (Kiev, Mogilev and Kremenchug on T2). I only got Kiev ARM out as I have had to use lots more rail cap on moving troops to the far north to defend the approaches to Leningrad.

When we get there it will be very interesting for me to compare where this game is at T10 and the game against glvaca at T10.





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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/17/2012 4:51:26 AM   
HITMAN202


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Looks like your Sec units are going to cause him grief in AGN by slowing down his direct approach to Pskov. Could you show your division loses each turn ??

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/17/2012 3:49:02 PM   
hfarrish

 

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I would recommend putting a stronger garrison in Odessa - the extra counters won't make a difference elsewhere and you stand good chance of (a) getting cheap wins against Axis Allies; (b) tying up decent German infantry formations once he realizes he needs them and (c) if you are lucky and keep motorized forces there, getting a chance to cut a rail line.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/17/2012 5:37:50 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Don't bother to evacuate until turn 3. It's perfectly fine to spend all your cap on troop transfers on turn 2, and get your reserve armies in place. (With whatever is left over from that, I get out some stuff from Leningrad.)

Furthermore, none of those places you evacuated are essential. I actually write all of them off, although I'm tempted to rail out the 4 HI from Kiev on turn 3 now just to give myself a bit of a cushion, and while rail cap is still very high. You really don't need all those dinky ARM factories west of the Dnepr at all. Especially against Pelton, who still looks for opportunities to lock down factories, it's better to work further in the rear and deny him juicy targets. He's not as much of a factory raider now as he used to be, but if you're to slow to get out stuff, he'll chain his way right there in no time at all.

I'm interested to see how he approaches Leningrad. Direct or right hook? I think he'll go for the right hook. He's got more mech up there than necessary for the direct approach.



< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 8/17/2012 5:39:23 PM >

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/17/2012 5:53:29 PM   
hfarrish

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Furthermore, none of those places you evacuated are essential. I actually write all of them off, although I'm tempted to rail out the 4 HI from Kiev on turn 3 now just to give myself a bit of a cushion, and while rail cap is still very high. You really don't need all those dinky ARM factories west of the Dnepr at all. Especially against Pelton, who still looks for opportunities to lock down factories, it's better to work further in the rear and deny him juicy targets. He's not as much of a factory raider now as he used to be, but if you're to slow to get out stuff, he'll chain his way right there in no time at all.




I think Pelton has pretty much backed off factories altogether - he has stated in our games (and you can see from his AARs) that he is almost ignoring them now; in my latest game he could have easily given me fits with Tula and simply didn't try very hard. His focus is on manpower and pockets, more the former than the latter.


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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/17/2012 5:57:38 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		It's true that he's mostly stopped doing it, but I can imagine situations where he'll pull out that card and play it. Especially by the Donbas, which is both manpower and factory rich.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/23/2012 12:36:43 AM   
Michael T


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Status: offline 		End Soviet T4

On turn 3 I confirmed the disposition of Axis mech forces as: AGN 7/6 (Pz/Mot), AGC 4/1, AGS 6/6. He is clearly going all out for Leningrad.

This turn the AGN battering ram continued its push toward the southern edge of Lake Ilmen. With the aid of some successful reserve commitments quite a few holds were achieved against his panzer spearheads bringing the advance to a temporary halt. The right hook could well be his plan. But he is still in position to go either north or south of Lake Ilmen. Some weirdness on the Finish front. I put plan Janis in to operation and Pelton's reply was to retreat a hex back in to Finland??? I don't know what he is playing at here. I withdraw to the Janis stop line.

In the centre he seems content to wait for the arrival of his infantry before making any deep advances. Not much pressure on me here yet.

In the South he moves across the Dniepr, I offered no serious resistance. He is poised to strike either towards Kharkov or D Town. I have evacuated about half the T34's and 8 Arm from Kharkov. D town is emptied of Arm, the process was started on T3. Poltava was emptied on T3.

I have thrown a lot of troops in to the Leningrad area. Most I ever have. I feel his entire 1941 strategy is revolving around the early capture of Leningrad and the destruction of my army defending it. The longer I hold out the more chance frustration or indecision will result on his part. I can only hope. It’s a tricky balance I need to maintain. Delay versus the risk of losing the forces involved in postponing his march to Leningrad/Svir.




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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/23/2012 12:37:47 AM   
Michael T


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Status: offline 		Close up of Leningrad.




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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/23/2012 1:08:32 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		He's probably conceding the chokepoint and placing the Finns so they don't get attrition losses. Even so, that hardly requires a withdrawal, shrug.

The hardest thing about dealing with this northern push is that for the moment you have to cover both north and south of lake Ilmen, as he hasn't committed to either and can easily swing one way or the other.

Your C&C up north is a bit of a mess. I know a lot of folks like to wait a few turns to straighten things out (and get the AP dump from Reserve Front) but this area in particular may need immediate attention. Elsewhere you can get by being a rainbow warrior.

For whatever it is worth I think you're doing absolutely the right thing massively reinforcing the area. I'm even thinking you need more than what you've sent already. His panzer commitments speak for themselves.



< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 8/23/2012 1:53:26 AM >

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/23/2012 1:18:31 AM   
Walloc

 

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Status: offline 		Well, if u attack right u can nearly always surround 2 of the divs before they would make it to the choke points. By attacking in right order/hexes. About the attrition. I dunno the formular, but i have made some tests. Just staying close to enemy owned hexes seems to have some sorta effect, so to avoid that attrition he would still hafta take those hexes. Plus the same is true about other side. Now the choke points have a buffer of own hexes infront. Presumably lower his attrition there.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/23/2012 1:56:34 AM   
hfarrish

 

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Are the light green units up North all Moscow defense zone? Given its distance, does it really gain anything to burn APs assigning units to that front (apologies in advance if I am missing something)...

I generally use a different strategy of leaving an advance light screen while constructing major lines to the rear and generally don't mess with trying to establish much of any C&C on the screen.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/23/2012 1:59:03 AM   
hfarrish

 

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Also, what is your sense of how well Pelton recognizes your defenses around Leningrad? In my game I've found he can be a bit light to very light with recon at times, leading to some (I presume) off assumptions.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/23/2012 1:59:19 AM   
Flaviusx


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From: Southern California
Status: offline 		The green are the Moscow MD. Moscow Defense Zone comes later and is magenta.

He's got some stuff from Western Front, too, along with the usual NW and Northern Front. Quite colorful.



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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/23/2012 3:08:53 AM   
Michael T


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Status: offline 		The desperate rush of troops to the Leningrad area, the desire to minimize the load on NW and N fronts, the need to minimize the expenditure of MP for reserve activation, trying to save AP, the general tide of units from south to north etc etc ultimately results in this 'pizza look'. As the game goes on I will gradually get things in order if the Army survives.

Too early for me to tell much about Pelton's strengths/weakness' but on turn 4 he suffered quite a few holds in his advance to Lake Ilmen (inc a hold result on a deliberate attack by an entire Pz Corp). I was tempted to hit some of his dudes but decided to hold back a bit yet. If I can hold out on this front for another few turns I am confident I can really throw a spanner in his works. I have his T5 in but haven't seen the result yet.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/23/2012 3:21:24 AM   
mmarquo


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Status: offline 		If you get the C/C in order then there is a better chance of defensive activations...

Mark

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