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How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/6/2012 1:31:48 PM

ww2pacnut

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Ok...I would say I'm a noob so bare with me. I'm playing US in the big vanilla quiet China scenario. It is April 1942 and I have only the USS Hornet left as far as carriers go (long story). Yes I had a epic moral debate about reverting to pre loss save points but decided to press fwd and take in on the chin. Any time my carrier TF gets near the KB, the KB strikes first and smacks me hard!!! My carrier never even launches a plane. So I'm hoping a seasoned vet can give me some pointers as to what I'm doing wrong. I have the F's on escort, the TB's on naval attack, one DB on naval attack, the other db group runs a naval search. I have an aggressive ship commander with high air rating. TF reaction is set to 6. Is it some magical balancing ratio between search and attack?

Secondary question...if you set a DB or TB unit to naval search will they ever attack or only search? Anti-question....if you set them to naval attack yet specifiy a high search % will they still search and attack?

Thanks in advance.

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/6/2012 1:38:24 PM

Bullwinkle58

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A hint: Go to the aircraft database under the 'I' button and look at IJN carrier aircraft stats. Especially range. Especially for the Kate.

Now, look at yours.

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/6/2012 1:44:51 PM

ww2pacnut

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Roger that.....
There has to be some way to get the jump on the KB.
Is detection and searching not a factor...any tricks to see them first so to speak? LOL

Otherwise I have to dodge for a few more years until I can put up greater numbers of flat tops.....

Thanks

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/6/2012 1:58:35 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ww2pacnut

Roger that.....
There has to be some way to get the jump on the KB.
Is detection and searching not a factor...any tricks to see them first so to speak? LOL

Otherwise I have to dodge for a few more years until I can put up greater numbers of flat tops.....

Thanks

Searching is mandatory, but not all searching has to be from organic carrier assets if you choose your op areas correclty. IOW, in the era you're in, don't go too far west or north. Use your land-based support. You have time; it's a long war. Presently you'll get new, better carriers, and massively better aircraft. (Look at the Devastator for example. Look at it next to the Kate, its competition. Bad.)

Beyond that you face the conundrum of all carrier admirals of that era. How much to invest in CAP to save your ships versus how much to invest in strike escort to get through to the target? Again, right now your fighters are weak versus the Zero. That will change. Be patient.

In your first grand campaign you'll feel like you've been playing for a year and you'll still be in 1942. (OK, sometimes you HAVE been playing for a year.

) There is a temptation if playing the Allies to Do Something Right Now out of boredom. Resist this. You have time. I'm playing my fourth GC as the Allies and I know what things will look like in mid-1944. Completely different. But it's still hard to suffer through 1942.

Keep playing and don't roll back to old saves. The USN got through part of 1942 with only one operational carrier in the Pacific. You can too. It builds character.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 9/6/2012 2:02:56 PM >

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/6/2012 2:18:58 PM

Shark7

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Here is another hint: don't go looking to engage KB prior to the fall of 1942. It is a losing proposition. Even up to the Battle of Midway in the real war, the USN was at a disadvantage, and Midway only worked because the USN cracked the IJN codes and reward was worth the risk. Remember, even Coral Sea was more or less a draw.

In other words, pick your battles.

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/6/2012 3:05:30 PM

Alfred

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1. Do not place an entire carrier deployed bomber squadron on naval search. You are weakening too much your potential strike package.

2. A bomber squadron can be set to have a "Naval Attack" as its primary mission and have a percentage of its aircraft set to "Naval Search". In that instance the percentage set to "Naval Search" will not participate in any "Naval Attack" sortie by the rest of the squadron.

3. Any aircraft set to "Naval Search" may end up "attacking" any ship it spots.

4. Ceterus paribus, always assume that the Japanese carriers will launch before the Allied carriers.

5. Generally speaking it is not a good idea to have early war Allied carriers set to react 6 hexes. Nor is having an aggressive carrier TF commander a wise decision.

Alfred

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/6/2012 3:19:04 PM

ww2pacnut

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Thanks much for the tips!!! I fell better now.
Looks like the boys will continue watching movies on the hanger deck for awhile as they loiter around the south pole!! LOL

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/6/2012 3:26:08 PM

Q-Ball

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Good advice here, but the main one is that you have to stay away from Japanese CVs in the first half of 1942, unless you are very sure of local superiority in numbers.

Odds are better after the first 2 quarters of 1942, when you a) can upgrade radar and flak on the USN, and b) you can replace the TBD Devastator with TBF Avenger. Until you can ditch the TBD, you really fight at a disadvantage.

Even then, you don't really tip the scales until the 10/42 flak upgrades, and availability of fast BBs to soak-off attacks and contribute flak

The Hellcat is the ultimate equalizer; once you have that, you should seek battles

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/6/2012 3:30:25 PM

AW1Steve

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OK, so what conditions do I need to wait for before I commit my CV's? Obviously Avengers replacing Devastators. Do I need to wait for Hellcats? CLAA's and fast BB's in every CVTF? Do we have an approximate timeline? I've learned the hard way that Summer/fall of 1942 IS NOT the optimum time.

When is? What pre-requisits should I be looking for? And what do I need to do to "prepare the battlespace" in the current military venacular? What training levels should I be aiming for? Do I need to sacrifice a chicken? (Sorry CB!

). A pig? A shrubery?

And what should my CVTF's look like?

And what about going with Slow CVTF's by including old BB's as torpedo magnets?

< Message edited by AW1Steve -- 9/6/2012 3:31:24 PM >

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/6/2012 3:54:27 PM

dr.hal

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If an axiom applies here it is be where the enemy is weakest with the most you have. In the early months of the war you pilots need experience and more training. BUT, the thing to avoid is any KB (especially if it retains all 6 carriers). Find out where it is, then avoid it like the plague. But, keeping in mind the need for experience, try to place your carriers where the KB is not and hit targets. Combat is the best way to raise experience and do so quickly. Even strikes against land or island targets are important, the less defended the better (remember you are not doing this to hurt your opponent as much as you are doing this to gain experience). Keep this up and keep your carriers above water and by the time you get your better replacement aircraft (as Steve indicates) you should be in a very solid position to start your long road to victory! Hal

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/6/2012 3:59:58 PM

rms1pa

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sacrificing a chicken won't do it, i reccommend cape buffalo or larger.

item one, the ijn has 10 flight decks you start with 2.

stay inside or behind your overlaping search areas.

track carrier aircraft strikes if 100 kates are hitting batavia
then you can raid baker island.

i like to have a VMF on each CV .set all fighters to Escort 50 CAP
and all else to Naval Attack/ Rest with DB's on 20 search.

don't forget your float planes, there sould be 12 - 20 float planes availible in your TFs set them to recon 30 ASW 30 SEARCH and 20 rest.

not the answer to every situation but (for me) my standard practice.

against the AI the emperors track team will start popping up here and there. if you can see them first . or read the SIGINT. a reception can be held.

rms/pa

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/6/2012 4:27:07 PM

AW1Steve

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I suppose it's probably a good idea to wait till your fighters increase squadron size to 36, but how about trading torpedo planes for VMF fighters? Any thoughts? TBF's are better than TBD's, but the torpedo's still leave a lot to be desired.

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/6/2012 5:06:38 PM

Commander Stormwolf

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back in WITP days i once sank basically the entire IJN and invaded north japan by mid 1942 - didn't lose a single carrier

it can be done, but requires stupidity on your opponent's part

(like splitting up his carriers and setting his planes to airfield attack on midway.. no that's not history.. the opponent actually did that .. except I had 5xUSN CV in the area so my dauntlesses basically toasted his KB formation)

the aar was called *bore in the pacific*

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/6/2012 9:32:39 PM

dr.hal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

back in WITP days i once sank basically the entire IJN and invaded north japan by mid 1942 - didn't lose a single carrier

it can be done, but requires stupidity on your opponent's part (like splitting up his carriers and setting his planes to airfield attack on midway.. no that's not history.. the opponent actually did that .. except I had 5xUSN CV in the area so my dauntlesses basically toasted his KB formation)

the aar was called *bore in the pacific*

Stormwolf, it doesn't have to be back in the days of WITP, in my last AE game in April of '42 my opponent and I had a titanic clash, he lost nine Jap carriers and I lost one allied. So under the right circumstances and with the right build up, defeating even a supersized KB can be done.... and of course with a LOT of luck.... Hal

Actually if I recall correctly it was in May of '42, sorry.

< Message edited by dr.hal -- 9/6/2012 9:34:31 PM >

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/6/2012 9:42:53 PM

AW1Steve

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Details gentlemen, details!

Glittering generalitites about how brilliant or lucky you were is neat , but enquiring minds want to know how exactly you did it! Tactics, do's, don't, numbers used,settings selected , and any other details you can recall is pure gold! Please give!

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/6/2012 9:54:45 PM

dr.hal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Details gentlemen, details! Glittering generalitites about how brilliant or lucky you were is neat , but enquiring minds want to know how exactly you did it! Tactics, do's, don't, numbers used,settings selected , and any other details you can recall is pure gold! Please give!

I understand what you are asking Steve I really do, and you are right, broad strokes don't create a painting, but I feel as if I would have to ask my opponent to collaborate as I could only give half the story. And because things didn't go well for him (we mutually decided to end the game a few turns after that event) it would appear that I was grandstanding at his expense. This I would be loath to do, nor is it fair to my opponent as he played a very good and up until that point, demanding game. So I'm not sure how to proceed, and I'm not going to fall into the trap that history is always written by the victors.... Hal

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/6/2012 10:34:48 PM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Details gentlemen, details! Glittering generalitites about how brilliant or lucky you were is neat , but enquiring minds want to know how exactly you did it! Tactics, do's, don't, numbers used,settings selected , and any other details you can recall is pure gold! Please give!

I understand what you are asking Steve I really do, and you are right, broad strokes don't create a painting, but I feel as if I would have to ask my opponent to collaborate as I could only give half the story. And because things didn't go well for him (we mutually decided to end the game a few turns after that event) it would appear that I was grandstanding at his expense. This I would be loath to do, nor is it fair to my opponent as he played a very good and up until that point, demanding game. So I'm not sure how to proceed, and I'm not going to fall into the trap that history is always written by the victors.... Hal

I understand Hal. Of course I wouldn't be unappreciative if you or anyone else were to PM me with "suggestions". In fact I'd be downright grateful!

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/7/2012 2:06:11 AM

dr.hal

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Wilco

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/7/2012 5:50:08 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Details gentlemen, details! Glittering generalitites about how brilliant or lucky you were is neat , but enquiring minds want to know how exactly you did it! Tactics, do's, don't, numbers used,settings selected , and any other details you can recall is pure gold! Please give!

I read quite a few of the AARs [AE only - didn't have the game when WITP was the going version]. Any time I have seen KB whipped it is because its attention was distracted. Take the RL Midway example - the allied CVs were only able to close within strike range because KB was committed to a strike on Midway. Given a bit of luck [holes in the Japanese search arcs] and Nagumo's dithering, and the absence of Shokaku and Zuikaku, the US CVs took out three IJN CVs in the first strike. With only Hiryu left, the IJN still managed to leave Yorktown dead in the water before Hiryu too was overwhelmed.

In an AAR example - can't remember which at the moment - the allied player knew KB was in the area and kept his carriers out of one day's steaming range. He was trying to sneak an amphib TF and a 4 old bombardment BBs into Luganville, or thereabouts, when KB suddenly moved that direction. He tried to retreat his two TFs and moved his carriers to cover their retreat against any surface TF that might be accompanying KB. A mistake was made and the amphib force went in for the landing. KB reacted to attack it. The US CVs reacted and attacked KB. The Japanese lost about four carriers and had two or three more heavily damaged, but they still managed to get an afternoon strike against the US fleet that sank one CV and damaged another.
Timeline was April or May 1942. The key thing was that KB was sending strikes against the amphib force and only had an afternoon strike of about 1/3 strength to fight the US carriers.

In still other AARs I have seen both sides try to bait the enemy carriers into a trap by dangling a battleship or two or some amphib vessels. Since you can't totally control the reaction of the carriers, these traps have the potential to create another Midway scenario. Obviously, you only want to set such a trap if you also have local superiority in carrier CAP and strike packages. Hope that gives some idea of when you might consider the risk vs reward worthwhile.

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/7/2012 10:51:46 AM

Itdepends

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It's not just baiting them- when a carrier launches strikes it increases it's DL. If you can get the enemy to increase their DL by striking something else (or they do it on their own) you know where they are but they don't know where you are. This helps you get the first (and possibly only) strike in,

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/7/2012 4:05:52 PM

AW1Steve

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So it seems as always , it's search,recon,patrol and search! Apparently PBY's and other LBA's (like the HudsonIII) are your best friend. You can't match his range. And probably never will. So unless he strikes elsewhere , his CV's will generally get in the 1st punch. Unless you can divert that punch elsewhere , you will have to be able to absorb it. That means waiting for Hellcats and Corsairs, better AAA, fast battleships and CLAA's.

I recently read about a late war tactic of placing the "Battleline" between the CV's and the enemy as a means of absorbing the strike by use of incredible AAA of the battleships. Any thoughts on this?

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/7/2012 4:17:35 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
I recently read about a late war tactic of placing the "Battleline" between the CV's and the enemy as a means of absorbing the strike by use of incredible AAA of the battleships. Any thoughts on this?

IIRC, the Japanese considered use of this tactic at about the time of the Midway debacle. Of course, the 'big gun'-dominated navy didn't much care for this idea, but it was considered thoroughly. Dunno if the Allies would be so quick to adopt a 'throw away a ship and crew as decoy' approach though.

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/7/2012 4:39:31 PM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
I recently read about a late war tactic of placing the "Battleline" between the CV's and the enemy as a means of absorbing the strike by use of incredible AAA of the battleships. Any thoughts on this?

IIRC, the Japanese considered use of this tactic at about the time of the Midway debacle. Of course, the 'big gun'-dominated navy didn't much care for this idea, but it was considered thoroughly. Dunno if the Allies would be so quick to adopt a 'throw away a ship and crew as decoy' approach though.

I can see why the Japanese wouldn't like using this tactic, but consider USN fast battleships, fully updates , with the proximity fuse, and a LCAP from the USN CVTF's behind.....I would imagine it was devastating! Also, the Japanese did their best to turn their BB's into "plane killers" , by using devices such as the 18" gun "shotgun shells" (as I don't know the correct name) intended to blast down torpedo planes (by the water blast if not a direct hit).

And the allies did resort to the destroyer picket (used as late as the Falklands) approach.

I wonder if the war had contiuned past the summer of 1945 if the USN would have immplemented the SSR program that arrived too late for the war , but was played with extensively in the 1950's.

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/7/2012 4:47:36 PM

Shark7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
I recently read about a late war tactic of placing the "Battleline" between the CV's and the enemy as a means of absorbing the strike by use of incredible AAA of the battleships. Any thoughts on this?

IIRC, the Japanese considered use of this tactic at about the time of the Midway debacle. Of course, the 'big gun'-dominated navy didn't much care for this idea, but it was considered thoroughly. Dunno if the Allies would be so quick to adopt a 'throw away a ship and crew as decoy' approach though.

The IJN BBs weren't exactly best suited for the task, as the AAA was rather under-whelming. Though had they distracted the main US carrier strikes, the battle might have ended with 3 USN carriers sunk and the loss of a couple of obsolete IJN BBs.

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/7/2012 4:56:24 PM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
I recently read about a late war tactic of placing the "Battleline" between the CV's and the enemy as a means of absorbing the strike by use of incredible AAA of the battleships. Any thoughts on this?

IIRC, the Japanese considered use of this tactic at about the time of the Midway debacle. Of course, the 'big gun'-dominated navy didn't much care for this idea, but it was considered thoroughly. Dunno if the Allies would be so quick to adopt a 'throw away a ship and crew as decoy' approach though.

The IJN BBs weren't exactly best suited for the task, as the AAA was rather under-whelming. Though had they distracted the main US carrier strikes, the battle might have ended with 3 USN carriers sunk and the loss of a couple of obsolete IJN BBs.

I'm delighted that I'm not hearing that much overused word, "gamey" here. I was honestly reluctant to throw the tactic out to debate as I honestly expected to be overwhelmed by an avalange of JFB's screaming "gamey". Especially I appreciate the fact that both players to discuss this issue have been (I belive) experinced JFB's.

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/7/2012 5:30:21 PM

Shark7

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There is nothing gamey about it. Basically you are going to trade losing one high victory point type of ship to prevent the loss of an even more high value type of ship. It is in fact a very viable (if some what harsh or even cynical) tactic.

And I have sent out SAGs to try and engage CVBGs before. In a situation where you can't escape (IE they are in range with no hope of getting out of range), I'd rather have them go down fighting (or at least trying to fight), and they just might get lucky.

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/8/2012 5:11:49 AM

BBfanboy

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One thing I forgot to mention in the "alternate target" discussion is that the player has no control over which targets are actually attacked by their carriers when several are in range. The game engine does not seem to be too intelligent in its selection of target; e.g. as when my carriers sent their torpedo planes out to try and hit agile DDs while sending the SBD dive bombers out against battleships which they can only dent.
So there is always an element of chance that the enemy will not send a large strike at the "bait" target and will in fact detect and strike at your carriers. Thus the need for absolute CAP superiority [numbers and/or quality] before you try this gambit.

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/8/2012 5:44:20 AM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

There is nothing gamey about it. Basically you are going to trade losing one high victory point type of ship to prevent the loss of an even more high value type of ship. It is in fact a very viable (if some what harsh or even cynical) tactic.

Of course, a worst case scenario for the AFBs is that they get their bait 'taken', yet cannot-for whatever reason-launch a counter strike (or it's out of range). This is a high risk, high reward payoff in every sense.

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/8/2012 8:30:25 AM

jmalter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
OK, so what conditions do I need to wait for before I commit my CV's? Obviously Avengers replacing Devastators. Do I need to wait for Hellcats? CLAA's and fast BB's in every CVTF? Do we have an approximate timeline? I've learned the hard way that Summer/fall of 1942 IS NOT the optimum time. When is? What pre-requisits should I be looking for? And what do I need to do to "prepare the battlespace" in the current military venacular? What training levels should I be aiming for? Do I need to sacrifice a chicken? (Sorry CB!). A pig? A shrubery? And what should my CVTF's look like?

And what about going with Slow CVTF's by including old BB's as torpedo magnets?

i've only played vs. the IJ AI, but i've been badly trashed when i give my CV TFs any reaction range - they charge towards the enemy w/ a DL disadvantage, after suffering an IJ strike that damages my fighter-groups and/or my carriers. yes, you need to wait for Hellcats.

my optimum USN CVTF has 2xCV, 2xCL, & 4xDD, w/ a CLAA if available. in my DBB_B game, the CV air-groups have decent skills at start (low 70's EXP and low 70's skill in their usual category), but some cross-training is needed (in NavS for DBs, ASW for TBs). float-planes need training, too - in NavS, ASW & Recon.

earlywar USN is all about 'preserve the ships AND preserve the pilots'. at start, the CVs don't have enough AA, & lots of their planes are awful. USN isn't an offensive force until air-groups are upgraded, and CVs (and their escorts) are upgraded. hide, train, wait, upgrade - when the CVEs w/ the replenishment-capable VRF sqns arrive, you'll have a credible force.

IMO 'slow' CVTFs are a bad idea, why sacrifice oldBBs? they need AA upgrades, too, & will be an essential part of your '44 amphib action.

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RE: How to prevent KB sucker punches? - 9/8/2012 12:22:43 PM

pws1225

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Details gentlemen, details! Glittering generalitites about how brilliant or lucky you were is neat , but enquiring minds want to know how exactly you did it! Tactics, do's, don't, numbers used,settings selected , and any other details you can recall is pure gold! Please give!

I understand what you are asking Steve I really do, and you are right, broad strokes don't create a painting, but I feel as if I would have to ask my opponent to collaborate as I could only give half the story. And because things didn't go well for him (we mutually decided to end the game a few turns after that event) it would appear that I was grandstanding at his expense. This I would be loath to do, nor is it fair to my opponent as he played a very good and up until that point, demanding game. So I'm not sure how to proceed, and I'm not going to fall into the trap that history is always written by the victors.... Hal

No worries Hal. As your prior opponent,please feel free to discuss your tactics in that mighty carrier clash from our last game. As I remember it, I had sailed KB around the northern tip of Sumatra to try to hit the British fleet and/or shipping around Ceylon. I thought the US carriers were over in the Pacific and I would have a nice easy time of it. Unfortunately for me, Hal had brought his US carriers around Australia into the IO. RATS! Caught between the British CVs to the north and the US CVs to the south, I got myself pummeled, punted, and sunk. I don't know many carriers Hal had in the battle, but I swear at least a few of them had to be Nimitz class.

Regards, Paul

(in reply to dr.hal)

Post #: 30