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Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/20/2012 4:21:55 PM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Ol' Blighty
Status: offline 		Anyone got any tips or dirty tricks (that do not amount to exploits) to beating a much more powerful Empire? I know it is a very broad question, I will post pictures of my specific situation when I can but for now, any general tips?

Currently they have a population about 8 times greater than mine, 20 colonies to my single colony, many other empires that hate them as much as me, a military strength 10 times greater than mine, ouch. I may be able to eek out an advantage with troops (Naxillian vs Quameno). Do you think I should totally turtle my homeworld (loads of defensive bases and troops) and sneak attack undefended worlds with troops?

Trying to get out of an early game hole, hehe. At the moment, they are not at war with me, but they really hate me because they want my colonies and resources (because they are more powerful this occurs). I have been stealing their tech, blowing up their mining bases and research centres, stealing galaxy map, giving high level mass driver tech to the empire they are at war with and other covert activities to try and soften them up a little.

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Post #: 1
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/20/2012 4:48:15 PM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline 		Starve them for fuel. Raid their forward bases, and hope they are busy elsewhere. I don't like sneak attacks, but you may differ in this.

A general tip is to attack hard. Grab some colonies, waste resources, then peace... Repeat.

(in reply to WoodMan)
Post #: 2
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/20/2012 5:11:24 PM   
Nedrear


Posts: 702
Joined: 10/29/2011
Status: offline 		If they are "scum" you should consider nuking their population. The worse the universe likes them the less it will hit your own rep. If you can crush their top colonies into nuclear dust there battle prowess will shatter after several years of war in debt. No money no replacement...
Further you should try to create an anti-empire alliance and distort their happiness. Target their luxuries and see if suppressed people now rise up for freedom. All these combined should bring them down, but do not fight a war alone. You need to survive long enough for it to work.

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Post #: 3
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/20/2012 5:27:04 PM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Ol' Blighty
Status: offline 		Nice ideas guys,

I have not seen a break-away Empire for a really long time if I'm honest, not sure it will be easy to make that happen.

I wonder about the "sneak attacks".  Does anyone know if the AI plays to its racial objectives?  Because, the Quameno have a racial objective to start the least wars in the galaxy.  I wonder if I could sneak attack several colonies at once and suffer no reprisal, because they are not starting a war due to their racial objective   They did already declare one war though!

_____________________________

"My body may be confined to this chair, but my mind is free to explore the universe" - Stephen Hawking

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Post #: 4
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/20/2012 5:32:04 PM   
Nedrear


Posts: 702
Joined: 10/29/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

Because, the Quameno have a racial objective to start the least wars in the galaxy. ...they are not starting a war due to their racial objective



If you give "start the fewest wars" to a very aggressive and expansive empire through policies it will battle an undeclared war, raiding your borders and ships without declaring it if they hate you. Of course the Quameno are not evil expansive insects at that.

Some people ignore you attacking some ships but if they really hate you and you invade their worlds they wil ldeclare war on you with their full force. First create the Quameno-Containment Alliance.

_____________________________

One Thread To Guide Them All

"Nothing incorporeal wields such power as a word. Though it is the weapon of the smart and cunning it alas needs the same to prevail."

(in reply to WoodMan)
Post #: 5
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/20/2012 5:33:18 PM   
feelotraveller


Posts: 1040
Joined: 9/12/2011
Status: offline 		Quameno you say...

Try starving them for fuel, preferably with spies blowing their gas mines.  I would avoid declaring war as they are very unlikely to compared to most races.  Keep trade open.  If you are successful in getting them into fuel shortages they may well start buying from you (especially if you have a nice hydrogen source at their door) and that could seal their reluctance to declare war.

Work on getting your reputation up so that you can slowly nibble away at their colonies in sneak attacks.  Lots of troops sounds good.  I wouldn't overdo the defensive bases personally but I think that is a matter of how cautious you want to be.

(in reply to Nedrear)
Post #: 6
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/20/2012 8:48:30 PM   
Pipewrench


Posts: 453
Joined: 1/5/2010
Status: offline 		Woodman you are doing a really good job.
It is always fun playing from a major disadvantage.

My 2 cents

James bond him and remember his fuel range if you can find out.
Sell your tech for cash to any and all because now is the time to throw the rulebook out the window.
Tech trade with any of his bordering empires that even remotely like you and see if you can create another war to keep them occupied.
Get your explorers working to find out where his small colonies are and build 1 troop ship to drop on each lightly defended planet when you declare war. Always leave the large planets alone on the first strike as you will need a response force when he counters.

Declare war when ready and pray.....

and when all is lost always remember

You can lose your colony and still pull the rabbit out of the hat. If you can hit his fleet hard enough and keep your fuel source his next strike will be much weaker....usually


edit

and in case he does declare, can you afford right now to build and set at a close fuel point a fleet with
1 or 2 escorts and 1 or 2 frigates with a loaded troop transport to hit his closest small colony? If you get lucky you can run the enemy fleet, who is returning home, out of fuel.






< Message edited by pipewrench -- 9/20/2012 9:05:06 PM >

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Post #: 7
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/21/2012 2:15:04 AM   
ehsumrell1


Posts: 2529
Joined: 8/17/2010
From: The Briar Patch Nebula
Status: offline 		Wow....nice! A virtual Star Fleet Academy of War Generals at your disposal Woodman!
Isn't that GREAT!

See what you get for having your Shipyards build the Legends shipsets!

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Shields are useless in "The Briar Patch"...

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Post #: 8
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/21/2012 9:36:35 AM   
Harrs


Posts: 64
Joined: 8/15/2012
Status: offline 		You can invade their undefended colonies in peace time..
Thats the dirtiest trick i know..

Send a troop ship to an undefended colony.. and strg+right click on the planet.. attack planet!
Bam the planet is yours..
In the moment you click all ships in the near will attack your troop carrier.. but its too late.
Most colonies have 1-3 troops and no star base.. And after his frigates are in the near of the planet.. it is allready yours. And they will quickly go out of the system..

You can do this several times.. before he declares war.. AI is a little bit stupid here.

(in reply to ehsumrell1)
Post #: 9
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/22/2012 6:37:44 AM   
AminMaalouf

 

Posts: 176
Joined: 1/6/2007
Status: offline 		Having 1 colonie against 20 on the other side could be difficult to resolve.

The savest might be to wait, colonise some additional systems and hope to find some larger relict spaceships before going to war.

(in reply to Harrs)
Post #: 10
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/22/2012 8:25:35 AM   
MartialDoctor


Posts: 388
Joined: 3/7/2011
Status: offline 		How did you get into this situation by chance? Were you hemmed in at the start or did you not expand rapidly in the beginning? Only having that one colony puts you at a big disadvantage.

In terms of defensive bases and troops, I, personally, would stay away. Only keep enough troops to defend against the few troop ships that would get by your defenses in the case of attack (4 - 8 has worked fine for me early game) and a few squads more when you want to use them to take out the AI's more undefended planets. Maybe a defensive base if you can afford it. I'd rely more on military ships as they can be mobile.

When I get into this type of situation where I'm definitely outgunned and the empire doesn't like me, I expand to a few colonies and build up my economy. I also use an ambassador to keep them from declaring war. Also giving small gifts here and there. Then I slowly start building my military to the point that I have a reasonable sized fleet to defend my homeworld.

The one thing you can guarantee with the way the AI works is, if their military score is much higher than yours, they will always come after your homeworld in the case of war, although they may hit other targets as well. You can use that to your advantage by having a defending fleet around your space-port when they arrive. You can take out a lot of their military this way as they are also stubborn and will send in more if they have them. While doing this you can take out their undefended colonies. Also, have a small fleet go around destroying their mines. Of course, you want to keep them from declaring war for as long as you can.

< Message edited by MartialDoctor -- 9/22/2012 8:26:40 AM >

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Post #: 11
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/22/2012 9:52:17 AM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline 		If you want cheesy, I think you can always do a quick war, quick grabs and peace. A peace has a value, and if you have something of value, you can always get it.

Often you can find some 200M+ trade sanction once the game matures a bit... Maybe not only peace, but all his cash, galaxy map, territory map, and some tech too (it depends on what he opens for trade).

(in reply to MartialDoctor)
Post #: 12
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/24/2012 7:48:35 PM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Ol' Blighty
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MartialDoctor

How did you get into this situation by chance? Were you hemmed in at the start or did you not expand rapidly in the beginning? Only having that one colony puts you at a big disadvantage.


When I start a new game I often create little rules for the starting conditions, kind of roleplaying. This time around I decided to base the Empire size and tech level on the intelligence of the race and the Homeworld Quality on the type of native planet combined with population growth. Then, I used a random number generator to find out which race I would play. I could have got lucky, but it turns out I rolled Naxillian who by these rules have the lowest quality homeworld and tech level and empire size, hehe. I started next to the Quameno, who being the most intelligent Empire in the galaxy started with a wopping 16 colonies!

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Post #: 13
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/24/2012 9:15:19 PM   
Bingeling

 

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Status: offline 		But did you defeat them in war?

(in reply to WoodMan)
Post #: 14
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/24/2012 10:37:17 PM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Ol' Blighty
Status: offline 		Not yet, haven't had much time to play since my original post. I've got a second planet available to colonize as soon as I finish the tech required. At the moment they have 11,000 military power to my 1,100 ish though I haven't built up a military at all yet, just what I need to fend of the pirates and kill monsters at a wreck site. Unfortunately the only two wreck sites I've found are out of fuel range of all my ships except my Cruisers. So, I've sent my Cruisers to try and clear out the Kaltors, but they will have hardly any fuel when they get there, hopefully enough to fight the battle!

With those advanced ships I might be able to take on the Quameno who have a higher tech and much bigger economy.

< Message edited by WoodMan -- 9/24/2012 10:38:07 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 15
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/25/2012 9:02:13 AM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline 		You appear to be very low yourself, and some tech at least seems advisable.

I guess you don't have resupply ship tech either, to help you get there.

(in reply to WoodMan)
Post #: 16
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/25/2012 12:31:52 PM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Ol' Blighty
Status: offline 		No I don't have resupply ships yet! I think that will be the next tech to research in that tree. Sadly, my Cruisers made it there, but only had enough fuel to kill all the kaltors except one, lol. The remaining Kaltor always chases my Construction Ship away, doh. Also, my colonization tech had a critical failure, nightmare, hehe. My tech is low but I have gone four steps in Rail Gun, I think Rail Gun is the best way to fight a higher tech nation, bypass those higher tech shields a bit.

_____________________________

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Post #: 17
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/25/2012 3:41:16 PM   
MartialDoctor


Posts: 388
Joined: 3/7/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan


quote:

ORIGINAL: MartialDoctor

How did you get into this situation by chance? Were you hemmed in at the start or did you not expand rapidly in the beginning? Only having that one colony puts you at a big disadvantage.


When I start a new game I often create little rules for the starting conditions, kind of roleplaying. This time around I decided to base the Empire size and tech level on the intelligence of the race and the Homeworld Quality on the type of native planet combined with population growth. Then, I used a random number generator to find out which race I would play. I could have got lucky, but it turns out I rolled Naxillian who by these rules have the lowest quality homeworld and tech level and empire size, hehe. I started next to the Quameno, who being the most intelligent Empire in the galaxy started with a wopping 16 colonies!


Interesting way to start the game.

However, why just base it on intelligence level, native planet, and population growth? Considering how competitive and aggressive the Naxillian are, that would tend to make them quite expansive. Also, according to the galactopedia, they also have very advanced cities, even though most live in tribal areas. Thus, even though slightly stupid, they would still have a decent homeworld and tech level, I would think.

But that's just me rambling. Don't let me spoil your fun.

(in reply to WoodMan)
Post #: 18
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/26/2012 9:09:24 AM   
AminMaalouf

 

Posts: 176
Joined: 1/6/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan
The remaining Kaltor always chases my Construction Ship away, doh.

Are there gas gigants with a fuel source at the relict site?


(in reply to WoodMan)
Post #: 19
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/26/2012 10:02:18 AM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Ol' Blighty
Status: offline 		I've found a third derelict site, this one, although still miles away is within fuel range. Those other two were out of fuel range, I had to get my construction ship to refuel at another empires spaceport on the way But of course my military ships couldn't do that. Not sure if there is fuel there, but, due to the distance between my nearest spaceport and the system, I couldn't build a mine there without the ship running out of fuel and travelling very slow on the way.

This is turning out to be one of the most difficult games of DW I have played! My continental research is nearly done, then I can at last get the one colonizable planet I've found not already colonized.

Actually, I recently noticed a Desert planet too, again in my territory safe from the other Empires, so once I research that I can get my Empire to a total of three colonies.

quote:

Interesting way to start the game.

However, why just base it on intelligence level, native planet, and population growth? Considering how competitive and aggressive the Naxillian are, that would tend to make them quite expansive. Also, according to the galactopedia, they also have very advanced cities, even though most live in tribal areas. Thus, even though slightly stupid, they would still have a decent homeworld and tech level, I would think.


I have done things like that in the past

This time around I wanted to advantage the Human, Kiadian and Quameno a bit simply because they usually do very poorly under the AI, the Merchant Guilds and Utopias leaving them in the dust early on!

_____________________________

"My body may be confined to this chair, but my mind is free to explore the universe" - Stephen Hawking

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RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/26/2012 5:14:40 PM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Ol' Blighty
Status: offline 		Things are looking up

I got my second colony, a continental world with high quality! Also, I managed to make a defence pact with the Kiadian who are the most powerful after the Quameno. The Quameno went all the way up to 20k military, then for some reason their reputation went diabolical and the Ancient Guardians declared war on them, now they are down to only 12k military, getting their butts kicked! I've got Ocean tech too now, stole it from them, but still only low quality worlds available

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RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/27/2012 2:10:02 AM   
Pipewrench


Posts: 453
Joined: 1/5/2010
Status: offline 		sit back

and watch them fight it out

great strategy Woodman!


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Post #: 22
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/27/2012 10:27:10 AM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline 		You do AI designs, right? Does the AI understand to use rail guns, and not replace them with some dinky blasters all by itself, or do you adjust the tech priorities in the empire settings?

In the game i currently run (that I have not visited since declaring war) I have AI research and design, and have the joy of watching the "breadth first" research of the AI. It will surely be useful to research one step of each weapon before heading any deeper...

(in reply to WoodMan)
Post #: 23
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/27/2012 11:12:00 AM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Ol' Blighty
Status: offline 		Hey Bing!

Yes I use AI designs, but I do my own research. I sometimes get problems where the AI uses the wrong stuff, but not so far in this particular game. I think it uses the best you have, but sometimes if you research another tech of the same level that you don't want to use, you may end up with the AI switching to it (like if you found the tech in a wreck for example, and wouldn't have otherwise researched it).

_____________________________

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Post #: 24
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/27/2012 9:14:21 PM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline 		Thanks for the answer. And the AI uses two kinds of weapons, so you ought to level two, right?

There are of course not only weapons, but as you mention one need to be very retire happy (on inherited pirate ships), or find tech to have too much problems.

(in reply to WoodMan)
Post #: 25
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/27/2012 9:17:42 PM   
Wild_Bill


Posts: 41
Joined: 7/21/2012
Status: offline 		Woodman when speaking of the tech in a wreck you bring up a point that has been bothering me. Earlier in my current game I salvaged a MUCH advanced tech Cruiser I found abandoned. It had advanced weapons, energy storage, engines, hyper, shielding etc. All across the board but I saw NO improvement in my own tech.

Do you (or someone else for that matter) know how it works and what I should expect? Since then I haven't been retiring/salvaging my relics but instead using them in my fleets or as single ships.

(in reply to WoodMan)
Post #: 26
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/27/2012 10:30:16 PM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Ol' Blighty
Status: offline
quote:

Thanks for the answer. And the AI uses two kinds of weapons, so you ought to level two, right?

There are of course not only weapons, but as you mention one need to be very retire happy (on inherited pirate ships), or find tech to have too much problems.


Hey Bing,

In my experience the AI designs use a main weapon and a secondary. Main weapon will be either lasers/phasers or rail guns. Secondary will be torpedo or missile. Then it also uses extras like ion, point defense and bombardment in lesser numbers. I'm guessing it uses Area weapons as extras too, but I tend to avoid those if I can anyway.

So wise course is to either research lasers/phaser or rail guns and also research one of torpedo or missile. In this particular game I have gone for rail guns and missiles. Of course, this is just assuming you are using AI designs, you could mix it up and use all sorts if you designed them manually to do that.

quote:

Woodman when speaking of the tech in a wreck you bring up a point that has been bothering me. Earlier in my current game I salvaged a MUCH advanced tech Cruiser I found abandoned. It had advanced weapons, energy storage, engines, hyper, shielding etc. All across the board but I saw NO improvement in my own tech.

Do you (or someone else for that matter) know how it works and what I should expect? Since then I haven't been retiring/salvaging my relics but instead using them in my fleets or as single ships.


Hey Bill,

When you retire a advanced ship you must retire it at a shipyard, not retire it immediately. So choose the retire at nearest shipyard option. It should then fly to the nearest shipyard and deconstruct and when it finishes you should then get a message in the scrolling messages at the top of the screen telling you what technology was enhanced. You can then check your tech tree, the yellow bar for that tech will have advanced or you will have gained the tech entirely.

The same happens when stealing tech. Don't expect to steal a tech in one go, it will simply advance the yellow bar for that tech in the tech tree. I had to send my agent four times to get Ocean colonization in my current game.

The research costs you chose at the start of the game do come into play here I think aswell as in general research.

_____________________________

"My body may be confined to this chair, but my mind is free to explore the universe" - Stephen Hawking

(in reply to Wild_Bill)
Post #: 27
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/27/2012 10:31:20 PM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline 		You must retire it at a shipyard (retire order). Once done you will get a popup with advanced understanding, and the tech it advances.

As far as I know, you get some extra research progress in a single tech.

I have never payed too much attention to it, but I do see the small progresses (or large) in things I have never researched. Like finally unlocking the fusion reactor even though I went the quantum line myself and never researched it.

(in reply to Wild_Bill)
Post #: 28
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 9/28/2012 9:46:18 PM   
Wild_Bill


Posts: 41
Joined: 7/21/2012
Status: offline 		Thanks guys

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Post #: 29
RE: Defeating A Much More Powerful Empire? - 11/12/2012 5:05:03 AM   
unidterror

 

Posts: 43
Joined: 11/3/2012
Status: offline 		I dont know if this will help.. Try trading tech with other empire build up a lot of cash and pay the second largest empire to goto war with the biggest empire. in the meanwhile you work dipplomatic relations(agents) and sabotage hes smaller planets (incite rebellion)99% is what i like.. but you can do 87% and fill up transports with the most amount of troops you can and send them to their smaller colonies, so get 15-25 transports full of troops and try to attack each colony simultaneously, you should scout the defense of each planet your going to attack with explorers. form small quick squadrons 3-5 ships and let the fighters go first if heavy resistance, if no defences are near, sneak your transport in(make sure your transport is fast 30 speed and can take damage and doesnt try to flee at first sign of attack.. troop attacking planet atleast go for 4/1 ratio this way if backup reaches planet you have time to get more troops down to reenforce your guys on the ground.
Do all this without declaring war on him.
Let him declare on you.
Thats what i would do anyways.
some planets will be re-taken perhaps but you have just squished alot of ressources and income for his empire.
Just be ready to goto war with him when hes pissed off.

(in reply to WoodMan)
Post #: 30
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