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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 9/25/2012 8:43:04 PM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
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Status: offline 		Yes, but in 1941 you will break right through them....


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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 9/26/2012 9:26:15 AM   
randallw

 

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Status: offline 		CVs of 50 or 75? Do you mean defensive CVs?

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 9/26/2012 11:09:27 AM   
janh

 

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Status: offline 		Sounds a bit like a case of FoW, though with picking the few really somewhat better infantry divisions and getting some level 2-3 forts up, it could be possible. In that case you need time, i.e. Axis arrive later than the typical turn 3 at the land bridge.

Even if Axis gets there by turn 3 -- and unlike in history-- is at large in shape to push on, I think this push must be contested. If Axis send 1 Panzergruppe from PG 2 and 3 south and north, it can really win some time to fortify the closer terrain around Moscow. At worst, Axis would have to wait a turn or two until the infantry comes up to breach the lines, but winning two turns is even better than two mud turns. Axis may even have to flex around the landbrigde thru the hills and woods to the north (Rshev), or cross a Djenpr and several minor rivers to the south of Smolensk. If nothing, this costs Axis more MPs, which means winning terrain and time. SHC is definitely getting a pounding on the landbridge, though, and its is surely poor defensive terrain. But at least the terrain means somewhat easier establishment of your flank security. I don't think surrendering it and holding closer to Rhev-Vjasma-Brijansk right away is often so much better.

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Post #: 123
RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 9/26/2012 11:16:33 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Wow.

Red Army is just going to blow up now. You might even run into supply issues in 42, try not to lose any more HI.

I think sitting tight is the right way to go. Frankly, you don't even need to run a full bore blizzard counteroffensive. That's just going to get you out of your forts and terrain features and strain your logistics. Keep the rifle divisions sitting tight and send out your cavalry and tank brigades forward to maintain contact with him and encourage him to keep retreating. When March hits, your mobile units can fade back to the interior and make him waste time taking back this buffer zone. You won't get many guards this way, but whatever. He's not going to get anywhere either, and then you just wait until 43 to roll out Red Army 2.0.

Pelton just doesn't get the attrition or grinding part of the game at all. Axis can easily maintain 5:1+ loss ratios until blizzard in 41 if they just keep pounding away. Deliberate assaults with the landsers are no joke. The worst thing you can do is what he's doing and give the Soviets a free ride. He's not pressuring your replacement situation at all. Your armament pools may never bottom out, either.


Don't count Pelton out of this game yet!

I don't know his OOB strength but I suspect that it is high (in both men and tanks)... the 1942 might be very interesting here regardless of Red Army size and numbers...


Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 124
RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 9/26/2012 11:17:07 AM   
Michael T


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Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Quick update. I have just finished the second mud turn (T19) and Pelton is in a fully fledged flight back to Poland it would seem, who knows where he will stop. I think its nuts, but who knows, it is certainly unexpected. I thought he would run in the blizzard, but he has been running from turn 16/17. Maps at the end of the mud.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 9/26/2012 2:37:05 PM   
Ketza


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quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

Sounds a bit like a case of FoW, though with picking the few really somewhat better infantry divisions and getting some level 2-3 forts up, it could be possible. In that case you need time, i.e. Axis arrive later than the typical turn 3 at the land bridge.

Even if Axis gets there by turn 3 -- and unlike in history-- is at large in shape to push on, I think this push must be contested. If Axis send 1 Panzergruppe from PG 2 and 3 south and north, it can really win some time to fortify the closer terrain around Moscow. At worst, Axis would have to wait a turn or two until the infantry comes up to breach the lines, but winning two turns is even better than two mud turns. Axis may even have to flex around the landbrigde thru the hills and woods to the north (Rshev), or cross a Djenpr and several minor rivers to the south of Smolensk. If nothing, this costs Axis more MPs, which means winning terrain and time. SHC is definitely getting a pounding on the landbridge, though, and its is surely poor defensive terrain. But at least the terrain means somewhat easier establishment of your flank security. I don't think surrendering it and holding closer to Rhev-Vjasma-Brijansk right away is often so much better.


I am on the road right now so I dont have the screenshots but it wasnt fog of war. There was one very large assault where I hit him with 6 fully rested infantry divisions of 9th army and got a hold. Next turn was a little better but its gonna be a tough road. I am sure he filtered all of his repacements to his landbridge army but did a much better job of it then I usually do. I was planning on doing an AAR but so far my progress is typica of banging your head against the wall of a good Soviet playerl and nothing really different to report

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Post #: 126
RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 9/26/2012 3:50:45 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Ketza, if he's massing on the landbridge he won't be able to defend Leningrad in any great force. There's not enough early on to properly contest both places. You either send the reserve armies one place or the other. So smash him north of Vitebsk and then turn the center around Velikiye Luki after pushing past Pskov towards Leningrad.

Michael, if he's running to Poland this will be an interesting exercise in self restraint on your part. I know how I would respond to this but I'm doubting it fits your temperament.



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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 9/26/2012 10:03:04 PM   
Michael T


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Status: offline 		Well, he has me thinking.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 9/26/2012 11:20:38 PM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
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Status: offline 		Resist temptation: do not do it.

I did and got my ass handed to me by a monstrous Panzer fist: my opponent amassed everyone of his well-rested Panzer/MTZ units into an unstoppable chainsaw; I was saved only by mud. In the end it did not matter because I made up the losses in 2 turns but still, it is a bad day to open up a turn and see 10 - 20 divisions ensnared in a 1942 Panzer trap.

Your army is still more fragile than you think...becareful.


Mark

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Post #: 129
RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 9/27/2012 9:17:55 AM   
randallw

 

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Status: offline 		I suppose you can keep marching west a bit, just to regain territory and force him to reconvert the hexes once he ( Pelton ) goes back on the offensive and use up some MPs.

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Post #: 130
RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 9/27/2012 2:23:14 PM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
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Status: offline 		Yes: the trick is to get a picket line next to him so he will lose more due to attrition; but do not overexpose. The Soviet army in 1942 is a true paper tiger.

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Post #: 131
RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 9/29/2012 6:59:24 PM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		Here is the battle I mentioned.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 9/30/2012 10:31:08 AM   
janh

 

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Status: offline 		Modified AV only 40% better, despite being thrice the number of much better trained units.

But: No German against 701 russian tanks, of which surely not all where BT-5/7, T-26 and other obsolete types, at this point in time when German ID had a best poor AT capabilities against heavier tanks (37mm, or a few 88mm AAA if attached)! This probably one of the combats one should watch (ideally replay) with more message details.

Looking at the casualties, your ID still did do good damage: 108 AFV!

< Message edited by janh -- 9/30/2012 10:33:08 AM >

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Post #: 133
RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/3/2012 1:16:38 PM   
mmarquo


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Status: offline 		Also no air, virtually no artillery and only one pioneer (status)?

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Post #: 134
RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/3/2012 10:37:02 PM   
Michael T


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From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Your opponent is relying on that front line holding. Not much depth. Surely a breakthrough with gased up Mech units would be a major disaster for him. I would like to take this guy on sometime if he does server games.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/4/2012 12:35:44 AM   
Michael T


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From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Looking at this situation again I probably would have gone through the hex 2 hexes to the south (open ground) of where you attacked, and then pushed through the open ground hexes and turned up behind these guys in the woods.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/4/2012 10:57:51 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
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From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		End Soviet Turn 21 (6 Nov 1941) Mud

Well, will the running stop now we have snow on T22. I have half kind of tempted an attack from his units in front of Smolensk. He has always professed he likes to start his 'AP Crunch' in Nov 41. So trying to make an offering to lure him forward again. He seems prepared for it. Hopefully it won't blow up in my face…

I have his T22 in the box but can't open it till I get home later on.

Sov OOB 5.96
Sov Cas 2.1
Sov Dis 780
Sov Man 2848
Tr Pool 216
Tr Units 132
Tr Repair 48
Total Tr 396

Ger OOB 3.38
Ger Cas 0.53
Ger Dis 351
OP AFV 2125





Attachment (1)

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/5/2012 8:10:16 AM   
Michael T


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From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Nope, he is still running. Will report again at end of snow or some change in attitude.

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Post #: 138
RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/5/2012 2:16:23 PM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		Michael,

Becareful....your army is a paper tiger....


Marquo

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Post #: 139
RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/5/2012 5:41:15 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Nope, he is still running. Will report again at end of snow or some change in attitude.


Ah the chicken!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Michael,

Becareful....your army is a paper tiger....

Marquo


The thing is -if he is truly heading for Poland (chicken!!)- paper tiger or not, he will spend half of the summer offensive approaching the Soviet lines. Then Michael still can afford land. By the end of 1942 the many Stavka/Fronts/Armies HQs cocktail cabinets should be necessarily closer to Berlin than their historical counterparts.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/5/2012 5:53:59 PM   
Michael T


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From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		To be perfectly honest if I had known he was going to pull this kind of stunt I would not have entered in to the game. Its absurd. I am in half a mind to simply call it off. Its bloody boring and not my idea of fun at all. I am chomping at the bit to get my chance as Axis against him to tear his sorry arse apart. I just have to be patient and sit on my hands for 50 turns or so. Frustrating.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/5/2012 5:59:37 PM   
sillyflower


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Status: offline 		I can't imagine that it was anything other than a reaction to your successes.

Not that the explanation makes it less boring/silly for you.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/5/2012 6:01:23 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Tullius, that's only true if the mass of the Red Army doesn't chase him all the way to the border and offers itself up in large digestible chunks to the Wehrmacht. What Pelton wants and needs is a rope a dope.

The trick here is to follow up that retreat with just enough stuff to encourage it, tear up all the rail lines, but leave the main line of resistance well behind a buffer zone of destroyed rail lines, so the spring and early summer Axis counteroffensive is wasted on empty space and repair, while the Red Army sits tight and digs in behind good terrain. (I like the Dnepr line here for the MLR.) But if the the pursuit force is too weak, then the Germans might stop running. So it's a tricky balancing act, and some bait may be required, with the expectation that said bait is potentially expendable.

Michael, the experience you're getting here in how to build Red Army 2.0 unmolested will stand you in good stead for future and more conventional games. Most players have to learn how to do it under far less favorable conditions and mostly get it wrong the first time around. You'll have a perfect blueprint in hand and can avoid those errors. So it's not a complete waste.

I also want you to show how wrong headed this entire Polish runaway strategy is and discourage anybody else from doing it in the future. Think of it as a public service anouncement to the PBEM community.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 10/5/2012 6:26:11 PM >

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/5/2012 7:26:44 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

To be perfectly honest if I had known he was going to pull this kind of stunt I would not have entered in to the game. Its absurd. I am in half a mind to simply call it off.


If he's lost this game (and yes, he has, no matter what), it's not because of this run-run-run-for-your-lives thing. He's done a horrible summer campaign. And of course you've done an excellent campaign.

It was clear (to him) that you did not care about the South. And yet in the two other main areas he spared one: the Center... Leningrad was his only target, and he did not even use the shortest, direct approach (and almost nothing can stop the German infantry + engineers + artillery + air support when sort of concentrated), but a long route via really tough hexes (south of the lake Ilmen). And to add insult to injury, you correctly detected his plan and thus concentrated your forces there.

He's done a really gross strategic mistake. But again, his opponent (aka you) has to be there to exploit it. And you skillfully were there!

He simply does not know what to do. Well, one thing he knows: he does not want to be destroyed during the winter. And given that Pelton is somewhat an extremist... to Poland, schnell schnell!!

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/5/2012 9:33:31 PM   
Michael T


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From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Flavius your explanation of the situation and the reaction proposed is exactly what I intend. I have come to the conclusion I can do nothing in 1942 other than defend. So I will defend as far forward as safe to do so. Meanwhile I pursue but I have a leash, my ever diminishing truck pool. So this limits the number of pursuers anyhow. But he might also resign at the end of 42 when he realizes the futility of it all.

< Message edited by Michael T -- 10/5/2012 11:00:54 PM >

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/6/2012 3:57:50 AM   
Ketza


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From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		I had a player sort of do the same thing but I had destroyed a whole bunch of his army first due to him being out of position in the mud.

It took until the late summer of 42 to get the logistics sorted out. I did as mentioned here and tore up rail tracks and converted terrain with a scouting army. The game sort of fizzled around Nov 42 but I had a huge Soviet army just getting a massive winter offensive underway that was fun to build.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/6/2012 11:53:56 AM   
Balou


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Status: offline 		Michael,
what can one expect in sov OOB by mid or end 42 whithout serious enemy contact/fighting ? Are sov numbers more important than their exp/mor?

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/6/2012 8:53:42 PM   
Farfarer61

 

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Status: offline 		Pelton likely tried a win everywhere and won not everyhwere. I submit he is experimenting. If he or she made great strides, a standard blizzard fallback would be worth it. But now that it is pooched, why not a withdrawal, save 1,000,000 casualties, and attack the 8 million man Ant Army in 1942 ? A poster, I think he was Flavius :) said "1941 is foreplay".

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Post #: 148
RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/6/2012 10:34:45 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Farfarer, because time and space, properly deployed, will defeat the rope a dope. You also were able to unleash the Finns and open up the entire northern flank; that's not going to happen here.

All Micheal need do is stall and deploy time and space until Red Army 2.0 comes online, and then he starts to push west for real, and will do so from a position far in advance from where the Soviets were historically, with his replacement pools filled to the brim.

If the Soviet player knows his business, the runaway will not only fail, but lead to an early end to the war, possibly a year or more in advance. You can't just run and give the Red Army a pass. It must be pressured.



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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/6/2012 10:50:45 PM   
Michael T


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quote:

Michael,
what can one expect in sov OOB by mid or end 42 whithout serious enemy contact/fighting ? Are sov numbers more important than their exp/mor?


I think he intends to play 1942 like 1941 again, so there should be some hard fighting. But I expect to have around 8 million men by the start of the summer of 1942, maybe more. I will have 6.5 million by the time the blizzard starts. My Arm points are still above 200K.

I can't afford to build a bunch of INF Corp in 1942, they cost too much. So my offensive capabilities are very limited.



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