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RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 8:50:30 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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doesn't really matter if roosevelt knew, i have no evidence for either for or against

just that it was good that the us entered the war in 1941, rather than 1946



usa and japan would have been at war whether pearl was a surprise or not

i saw a newspaper from december 8, 1941 that said the pacific fleet was NOT surprised

in fact it talks about the "battle of hawaii", and how 2 japanese carriers were sunk

other newspapers talked about colin kelley sinking a japanese battleship with his B17 - all BS



roosevelt's main achivement was to sour relations with japan so badly, that they would be inclined to make war

based on economic data, it was unlikely that the the us could possibly lose against japan, so there was little fear of japanese capabilities

and even if japan possessed some type of superweapon, it was no big loss


remember sir arthur harris "all the cities of germany, are not worth the bones of one british grenadier"

same manner of thinking




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Post #: 31
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 8:51:40 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Can some JFB tell us when the japanese planned the PH attack?
warspite1

Have a look at FDR's personal diary... he knew all about it apparently. On reflection it was probably his idea, and he discussed the details over tea with Tojo (with whom he was having an affair) - see post 7.

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Post #: 32
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 8:54:52 PM   
MBF

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

OK..this has gotten really weird, not to mention wrong forum for such discussion.




+1

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Post #: 33
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 8:55:11 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		You are right, if FDR new about it in May, and it was only only approved on 1 Dec, he must have been in on the detailed planning!!

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Post #: 34
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 9:37:24 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
my grandfather had a friend in germany, who was a pervert

he made the german girls working for him perform sexual favors, or else be fired

we took away all the germans' money in 1929 and made them work for us

he had friends in poland who joked wasze ulice, nascze kamenice mocking the poles that we owned all their real estate


Where did I hear that before? Goebbels' radio perhaps? Stormwolf has possibly read that in some Aryan Brotherhood forum

"Stormwolf" he he he nazi troll alert in case you have missed it

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Post #: 35
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 9:52:54 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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actually that girl's son joined the SS,

and he met with my father in the 1980s

seemed genuinely sorry for what they did, all of us

forgiveness can come, war has been over for a long time

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Post #: 36
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 10:27:51 PM   
slinkytwf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: moonraker
...but you have to ponder the fact that the Japanese main targets were out of the way that day which does leave some doubts it has to be said


You don't need to ponder that at all. Reading is sufficient to debunk it. Samuel E. Morison lays it out plainly in the official US Navy history. Everyone from the political leadership on down through the admiralty and general staff was expecting an attack, and had been on some level of alert for weeks. The Enterprise had been sent to deliver a squadron of Wildcats to Wake I. Halsey and Nimitz had discussed the Japanese threat before Enterprise left Pearl, and Halsey was of the opinion that if his TF so much as saw a Japanese fishing boat he'd blow it out of the water (and Nimitz apparently gave him permission to do so). I *think* Saratoga was on her way back to Pearl having come up through Panama. Can't remember what Lexington was up to (doing this off top of my head). Fact checkers can correct my memory if it is off.

(in reply to moonraker65)
Post #: 37
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 10:45:02 PM   
slinkytwf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
...roosevelt's main achivement was to sour relations with japan so badly...


Japan managed to sour the entire League of Nations against it by its war in China (especially the Nanjing massacre, which drew world-wide condemnation and made economic sanctions against Japan a political inevitability) and its continued expansion, first into northern Vichy Indochina and then finally gobbling up the rest of it.

c.f. The Origins of World War II in Asia and the Pacific, Akira Iriye among a plethora of other books on the political history.

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Post #: 38
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 11:07:01 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slinkytwf


quote:

ORIGINAL: moonraker
...but you have to ponder the fact that the Japanese main targets were out of the way that day which does leave some doubts it has to be said


You don't need to ponder that at all. Reading is sufficient to debunk it. Samuel E. Morison lays it out plainly in the official US Navy history. Everyone from the political leadership on down through the admiralty and general staff was expecting an attack, and had been on some level of alert for weeks. The Enterprise had been sent to deliver a squadron of Wildcats to Wake I. Halsey and Nimitz had discussed the Japanese threat before Enterprise left Pearl, and Halsey was of the opinion that if his TF so much as saw a Japanese fishing boat he'd blow it out of the water (and Nimitz apparently gave him permission to do so). I *think* Saratoga was on her way back to Pearl having come up through Panama. Can't remember what Lexington was up to (doing this off top of my head). Fact checkers can correct my memory if it is off.


a) Expecting a Japanese agressive move was not paranoia, a conspiracy. The analysis of the political situation led to that possible conclusion

b) Knowing that the Japanese were going to strike PH and not doing absolutely anything to alert that base is another thing.

The conspiracy nutters (with all due respect) believe the latter, not the former (a rational analysis, not ncessarily 100% accurate).

And in fact when they striked, some thought the attack had taken place in the Philipines, as attacking PH was really weird (militarily speaking).

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Post #: 39
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 11:16:10 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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froze japanese assets, organized the oil embargo

taking away someone's money is a good way to make them upset



funny story, my friend's bank went bankrupt a few years ago
so they tried to foreclose his house

but he had some good contacts, he picked up some of the bailout money
no more mortgage

guess some things stay the same

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Post #: 40
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 11:47:01 PM   
Footslogger


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Status: offline 		Why didn't the Japs send out another wave to attack the fuel depots? What would have happened if they did?

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Post #: 41
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 11:51:57 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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second wave was quite risky, since the carriers were not in port

third wave would be totally pointless

japanese had no possible hope of reducing allied oil/supply resources

so they never bothered


german naval attache was begging the japanese to attack allied merchant ships, but the japanese were more sensible

and used their submarines to attack warships (and caused serious damage during 1942)

wasp/yorktown/saratoga torpedoed, without IJN subs, 1942 would have been a total disaster

but 1943 / 1944 / 1945 allied naval superiority forced the submarines to be used to haul food to island garrisons



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Post #: 42
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 11:54:35 PM   
Nami Koshino


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Why didn't the Japs send out another wave to attack the fuel depots? What would have happened if they did?


Because Nagumo was amazed that he had pulled off the surprise attack with minor losses. The Japanese had expected to lose perhaps two carriers in the operation. He probably thought he would be pushing his luck by sticking around.

Besides, what good would destroying the fuel depots at Pearl do to the most oil rich nation on the earth? Especially when the most fuel hungry ships in the fleet were resting on the harbor bottom or destroyed? Hardly a major setback.

< Message edited by Nami Koshino -- 11/10/2012 11:55:24 PM >

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Post #: 43
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 12:18:01 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
my grandfather had a friend in germany, who was a pervert


How strange-what a small world! I have a friend in the UK that is a pervert. I wonder if that makes me related to your Grandfather? Or perhaps my friend in the UK is related to your grandfather?

I won't divulge the name of my pervert friend in the UK, but just ask you a completely unrelated question. Have you seen the "Australian Beauties" thread on the General Forum? Go and vote for your favorites now!

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Post #: 44
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 12:31:52 AM   
jetjockey


Posts: 256
Joined: 11/23/2009
Status: offline 		The theory that FDR had prior knowledge of and even abetted the attack on Pearl Harbor has always amused me since this would have made FDR some evil Machiavellian geopolitical super-genius. The necessary complicity of large segments of the military and government would have been a gross violation of Occam’s razor. A much simpler and more logical explanation would be that considering Japan’s precarious strategic situation, FDR chose to bully Imperial Japan into submission with regards to China. FDR erred by completely underestimating Japan’s psyche and was caught off guard by Japan’s rising militancy. FDR’s response was to launch an emergency military building program while ordering our Pacific forces into a passive pose in order to minimize the risk of unintentional conflict. Unfortunately for the U.S., this passivity was viewed by the Japanese as weakness.

Regardless of whether FDR was a super-genius or a super-nit whit, it was once again the blood of America’s soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines that had to be spilt to amend for the mistakes of our politicians. Remember this on Veteran's Day.


< Message edited by jetjockey -- 11/11/2012 1:18:03 AM >

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Post #: 45
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 12:51:16 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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well at least back then they declared war on the country who attacked them

didn't the us just fight a war in iraq for 8 years, for no reason?

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Post #: 46
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 1:19:14 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slinkytwf


quote:

ORIGINAL: moonraker
...but you have to ponder the fact that the Japanese main targets were out of the way that day which does leave some doubts it has to be said


You don't need to ponder that at all. Reading is sufficient to debunk it. Samuel E. Morison lays it out plainly in the official US Navy history. Everyone from the political leadership on down through the admiralty and general staff was expecting an attack, and had been on some level of alert for weeks. The Enterprise had been sent to deliver a squadron of Wildcats to Wake I. Halsey and Nimitz had discussed the Japanese threat before Enterprise left Pearl, and Halsey was of the opinion that if his TF so much as saw a Japanese fishing boat he'd blow it out of the water (and Nimitz apparently gave him permission to do so). I *think* Saratoga was on her way back to Pearl having come up through Panama. Can't remember what Lexington was up to (doing this off top of my head). Fact checkers can correct my memory if it is off.


You mean Kimmel - when Halsey took Enterprise to Wake, Nimitz wasn't at Pearl yet. Lady Lex was en route to Midway to deliver scout bombers. Sara was at San Diego picking up her air group after overhaul at Puget Sound Naval Yard.

About the myth of the "missing main targets" see http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/myths/Missing_Carriers.html - it concludes:

"Enterprise and Lexington were out of port on Dec. 7th under orders of Adm. Kimmel, not anyone in Washington D.C. Enterprise would have made it back into port on Dec. 5th if the weather hadn't delayed her. No human being prevented her from being there on the 7th. It was widely known that she was scheduled to be there on that date. After the start of hostilities both carriers were directed to locate and engage the enemy, despite facing unknown odds. It cannot be said, then that the carriers were "safely out of port" if they are just going to be sent to look for trouble when the shooting starts.

Given the above information it is clear that there was no "grand strategy" to save the carriers by someone who "knew" that the next war would be dominated by flat-tops. It is also clear that there were 8 "old and useless" battleships in Pearl that day because one of our most respected and talented admiral ordered three of them to proceed under normal schedule and return to harbor on the 6th. And finally, it is also clear that the carriers, instead of being wrapped in cotton and stashed away in a box like fragile Christmas ornaments, were being used as warships with orders to seek, locate and destroy. If there was any conspiracy surrounding Pearl Harbor it did not include carrier conservation in its plans."

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 11/11/2012 1:30:09 AM >

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Post #: 47
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 6:36:03 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
my grandfather had a friend in germany, who was a pervert


How strange-what a small world! I have a friend in the UK that is a pervert. I wonder if that makes me related to your Grandfather? Or perhaps my friend in the UK is related to your grandfather?

I won't divulge the name of my pervert friend in the UK, but just ask you a completely unrelated question. Have you seen the "Australian Beauties" thread on the General Forum? Go and vote for your favorites now!
warspite1



_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 48
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 11:07:01 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
my grandfather had a friend in germany, who was a pervert


How strange-what a small world! I have a friend in the UK that is a pervert. I wonder if that makes me related to your Grandfather? Or perhaps my friend in the UK is related to your grandfather?

I won't divulge the name of my pervert friend in the UK, but just ask you a completely unrelated question. Have you seen the "Australian Beauties" thread on the General Forum? Go and vote for your favorites now!
warspite1


warspite1

Oh and btw, the current competition - to celebrate 50 years of the longest running film franchise - is for the best i.e. most beautiful, Bond Girl. We have reached the last four, these being:

Izabella Scorupco (Poland) - Natalya Simonova - GoldenEye
Jane Seymour (United Kingdom) - Solitaire - Live and Let Die
Olga Kurylenko (France) - Camille - Quantum of Solace
Eva Green (France) - Vesper Lynd - Casino Royale

I would welcome your votes.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 49
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 3:50:01 PM   
geofflambert


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Status: offline 		I'm not even sure the Japanese knew about the attack in May.

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Post #: 50
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 7:56:14 PM   
Banzan

 

Posts: 288
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From: Bremen, Germany
Status: offline 		In general, most theories of conspiration fail the main test: How many people would have known of it, and for how long?
One person can keep a secret for his/her life, 2 people and its already difficult, 3 or more and its nearly impossible, 5+ and its impossible.

For example, "if" Richard Sorge would have informed Stalin about the attack in May '41 already and Stalin would have decided to tell the americans immediately about it, how many people would have known about it already, till President Roosvelt would have got the message?

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Post #: 51
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 8:04:30 PM   
jeffk3510


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


well at least back then they declared war on the country who attacked them

didn't the us just fight a war in iraq for 8 years, for no reason?


What is your problem?

...and I thought my wife was crazy.

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Currently chasing three kids around the Midwest.

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Post #: 52
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 8:50:25 PM   
Dixie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Can some JFB tell us when the japanese planned the PH attack?
warspite1

Have a look at FDR's personal diary... he knew all about it apparently. On reflection it was probably his idea, and he discussed the details over tea with Tojo (with whom he was having an affair) - see post 7.


Probably when they met Churchill who knew as well when they were on board the real Titanic. But of course Wiston would've already known as the Royal Family would have known, as part of the Illuminati (and undercover space lizards to boot) they would have secretly been pulling the strings behind everything that happened during WW2. It's probably the same venue when they decided to fake the moon landings and assassinate Kennedy.

The truth is out there! They just don't want you to know. Oh, hello nurse, time for my pills already?

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Post #: 53
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 10:37:17 PM   
jetjockey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510


quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


well at least back then they declared war on the country who attacked them

didn't the us just fight a war in iraq for 8 years, for no reason?


What is your problem?

...and I thought my wife was crazy.

FDR Fanboy.

(in reply to jeffk3510)
Post #: 54
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 11:42:00 PM   
Grfin Zeppelin


Posts: 1515
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From: Germany
Status: offline 		After reading this thread I am certainly a bit dumber than before...thanks for that.

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Post #: 55
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/12/2012 1:51:06 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie
Oh, hello nurse, time for my pills already?


I ask this on behalf of a certain pervert I know from the UK: "What is your nurse wearing?"

Again, completely unrelated to this is the fierce voting underway in Warspite1's "Australian Beauties" thread. Get out the vote!

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Post #: 56
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/12/2012 7:22:42 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
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From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie
Oh, hello nurse, time for my pills already?


I ask this on behalf of a certain pervert I know from the UK: "What is your nurse wearing?"

Again, completely unrelated to this is the fierce voting underway in Warspite1's "Australian Beauties" thread. Get out the vote!
warspite1

I think you are flogging a dead horse on the AB front CB But thank-you anyway.......



_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 57
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/12/2012 8:37:43 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline 		The only useful piece of information in this entire thread is ... Jane Seymour.

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Post #: 58
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/12/2012 12:35:34 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

The only useful piece of information in this entire thread is ... Jane Seymour.
warspite1

In which case obvert old son, may I suggest you head off to the General Discussion forum and the Australian Beauties thread? The luvverrlly Ms Seymour needs your vote! as do either Olga Kurylenko or Eva Green

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 59
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/12/2012 4:29:14 PM   
ilovestrategy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


well at least back then they declared war on the country who attacked them

didn't the us just fight a war in iraq for 8 years, for no reason?



Well at least you're not talking about Japanese float planes attacking the West Coast and interrupting US production.

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Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!

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Post #: 60
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