Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 8:50:30 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

Posts: 1623
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

doesn't really matter if roosevelt knew, i have no evidence for either for or against

just that it was good that the us entered the war in 1941, rather than 1946



usa and japan would have been at war whether pearl was a surprise or not

i saw a newspaper from december 8, 1941 that said the pacific fleet was NOT surprised

in fact it talks about the "battle of hawaii", and how 2 japanese carriers were sunk

other newspapers talked about colin kelley sinking a japanese battleship with his B17 - all BS



roosevelt's main achivement was to sour relations with japan so badly, that they would be inclined to make war

based on economic data, it was unlikely that the the us could possibly lose against japan, so there was little fear of japanese capabilities

and even if japan possessed some type of superweapon, it was no big loss


remember sir arthur harris "all the cities of germany, are not worth the bones of one british grenadier"

same manner of thinking




_____________________________

"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf

(in reply to Footslogger)
Post #: 31
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 8:51:40 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Can some JFB tell us when the japanese planned the PH attack?
warspite1

Have a look at FDR's personal diary... he knew all about it apparently. On reflection it was probably his idea, and he discussed the details over tea with Tojo (with whom he was having an affair) - see post 7.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 32
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 8:54:52 PM   
MBF

 

Posts: 140
Joined: 3/25/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

OK..this has gotten really weird, not to mention wrong forum for such discussion.




+1

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 33
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 8:55:11 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline
You are right, if FDR new about it in May, and it was only only approved on 1 Dec, he must have been in on the detailed planning!!

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 34
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 9:37:24 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
my grandfather had a friend in germany, who was a pervert

he made the german girls working for him perform sexual favors, or else be fired

we took away all the germans' money in 1929 and made them work for us

he had friends in poland who joked wasze ulice, nascze kamenice mocking the poles that we owned all their real estate


Where did I hear that before? Goebbels' radio perhaps? Stormwolf has possibly read that in some Aryan Brotherhood forum

"Stormwolf" he he he nazi troll alert in case you have missed it

_____________________________

a nu cheeki breeki iv damke

(in reply to Commander Stormwolf)
Post #: 35
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 9:52:54 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

Posts: 1623
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

actually that girl's son joined the SS,

and he met with my father in the 1980s

seemed genuinely sorry for what they did, all of us

forgiveness can come, war has been over for a long time

_____________________________

"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 36
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 10:27:51 PM   
slinkytwf


Posts: 35
Joined: 3/22/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: moonraker
...but you have to ponder the fact that the Japanese main targets were out of the way that day which does leave some doubts it has to be said


You don't need to ponder that at all. Reading is sufficient to debunk it. Samuel E. Morison lays it out plainly in the official US Navy history. Everyone from the political leadership on down through the admiralty and general staff was expecting an attack, and had been on some level of alert for weeks. The Enterprise had been sent to deliver a squadron of Wildcats to Wake I. Halsey and Nimitz had discussed the Japanese threat before Enterprise left Pearl, and Halsey was of the opinion that if his TF so much as saw a Japanese fishing boat he'd blow it out of the water (and Nimitz apparently gave him permission to do so). I *think* Saratoga was on her way back to Pearl having come up through Panama. Can't remember what Lexington was up to (doing this off top of my head). Fact checkers can correct my memory if it is off.

(in reply to moonraker65)
Post #: 37
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 10:45:02 PM   
slinkytwf


Posts: 35
Joined: 3/22/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
...roosevelt's main achivement was to sour relations with japan so badly...


Japan managed to sour the entire League of Nations against it by its war in China (especially the Nanjing massacre, which drew world-wide condemnation and made economic sanctions against Japan a political inevitability) and its continued expansion, first into northern Vichy Indochina and then finally gobbling up the rest of it.

c.f. The Origins of World War II in Asia and the Pacific, Akira Iriye among a plethora of other books on the political history.

(in reply to Commander Stormwolf)
Post #: 38
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 11:07:01 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slinkytwf


quote:

ORIGINAL: moonraker
...but you have to ponder the fact that the Japanese main targets were out of the way that day which does leave some doubts it has to be said


You don't need to ponder that at all. Reading is sufficient to debunk it. Samuel E. Morison lays it out plainly in the official US Navy history. Everyone from the political leadership on down through the admiralty and general staff was expecting an attack, and had been on some level of alert for weeks. The Enterprise had been sent to deliver a squadron of Wildcats to Wake I. Halsey and Nimitz had discussed the Japanese threat before Enterprise left Pearl, and Halsey was of the opinion that if his TF so much as saw a Japanese fishing boat he'd blow it out of the water (and Nimitz apparently gave him permission to do so). I *think* Saratoga was on her way back to Pearl having come up through Panama. Can't remember what Lexington was up to (doing this off top of my head). Fact checkers can correct my memory if it is off.


a) Expecting a Japanese agressive move was not paranoia, a conspiracy. The analysis of the political situation led to that possible conclusion

b) Knowing that the Japanese were going to strike PH and not doing absolutely anything to alert that base is another thing.

The conspiracy nutters (with all due respect) believe the latter, not the former (a rational analysis, not ncessarily 100% accurate).

And in fact when they striked, some thought the attack had taken place in the Philipines, as attacking PH was really weird (militarily speaking).

_____________________________

a nu cheeki breeki iv damke

(in reply to slinkytwf)
Post #: 39
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 11:16:10 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

Posts: 1623
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

froze japanese assets, organized the oil embargo

taking away someone's money is a good way to make them upset



funny story, my friend's bank went bankrupt a few years ago
so they tried to foreclose his house

but he had some good contacts, he picked up some of the bailout money
no more mortgage

guess some things stay the same

_____________________________

"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf

(in reply to Commander Stormwolf)
Post #: 40
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 11:47:01 PM   
Footslogger


Posts: 1232
Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Washington USA
Status: offline
Why didn't the Japs send out another wave to attack the fuel depots? What would have happened if they did?

(in reply to Commander Stormwolf)
Post #: 41
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 11:51:57 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

Posts: 1623
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

second wave was quite risky, since the carriers were not in port

third wave would be totally pointless

japanese had no possible hope of reducing allied oil/supply resources

so they never bothered


german naval attache was begging the japanese to attack allied merchant ships, but the japanese were more sensible

and used their submarines to attack warships (and caused serious damage during 1942)

wasp/yorktown/saratoga torpedoed, without IJN subs, 1942 would have been a total disaster

but 1943 / 1944 / 1945 allied naval superiority forced the submarines to be used to haul food to island garrisons



_____________________________

"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf

(in reply to Footslogger)
Post #: 42
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/10/2012 11:54:35 PM   
Nami Koshino


Posts: 100
Joined: 4/22/2006
From: Salem, Oregon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Why didn't the Japs send out another wave to attack the fuel depots? What would have happened if they did?


Because Nagumo was amazed that he had pulled off the surprise attack with minor losses. The Japanese had expected to lose perhaps two carriers in the operation. He probably thought he would be pushing his luck by sticking around.

Besides, what good would destroying the fuel depots at Pearl do to the most oil rich nation on the earth? Especially when the most fuel hungry ships in the fleet were resting on the harbor bottom or destroyed? Hardly a major setback.

< Message edited by Nami Koshino -- 11/10/2012 11:55:24 PM >

(in reply to Footslogger)
Post #: 43
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 12:18:01 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
my grandfather had a friend in germany, who was a pervert


How strange-what a small world! I have a friend in the UK that is a pervert. I wonder if that makes me related to your Grandfather? Or perhaps my friend in the UK is related to your grandfather?

I won't divulge the name of my pervert friend in the UK, but just ask you a completely unrelated question. Have you seen the "Australian Beauties" thread on the General Forum? Go and vote for your favorites now!

_____________________________


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 44
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 12:31:52 AM   
jetjockey


Posts: 256
Joined: 11/23/2009
Status: offline
The theory that FDR had prior knowledge of and even abetted the attack on Pearl Harbor has always amused me since this would have made FDR some evil Machiavellian geopolitical super-genius. The necessary complicity of large segments of the military and government would have been a gross violation of Occam’s razor. A much simpler and more logical explanation would be that considering Japan’s precarious strategic situation, FDR chose to bully Imperial Japan into submission with regards to China. FDR erred by completely underestimating Japan’s psyche and was caught off guard by Japan’s rising militancy. FDR’s response was to launch an emergency military building program while ordering our Pacific forces into a passive pose in order to minimize the risk of unintentional conflict. Unfortunately for the U.S., this passivity was viewed by the Japanese as weakness.

Regardless of whether FDR was a super-genius or a super-nit whit, it was once again the blood of America’s soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines that had to be spilt to amend for the mistakes of our politicians. Remember this on Veteran's Day.


< Message edited by jetjockey -- 11/11/2012 1:18:03 AM >

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 45
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 12:51:16 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

Posts: 1623
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

well at least back then they declared war on the country who attacked them

didn't the us just fight a war in iraq for 8 years, for no reason?

_____________________________

"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf

(in reply to jetjockey)
Post #: 46
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 1:19:14 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slinkytwf


quote:

ORIGINAL: moonraker
...but you have to ponder the fact that the Japanese main targets were out of the way that day which does leave some doubts it has to be said


You don't need to ponder that at all. Reading is sufficient to debunk it. Samuel E. Morison lays it out plainly in the official US Navy history. Everyone from the political leadership on down through the admiralty and general staff was expecting an attack, and had been on some level of alert for weeks. The Enterprise had been sent to deliver a squadron of Wildcats to Wake I. Halsey and Nimitz had discussed the Japanese threat before Enterprise left Pearl, and Halsey was of the opinion that if his TF so much as saw a Japanese fishing boat he'd blow it out of the water (and Nimitz apparently gave him permission to do so). I *think* Saratoga was on her way back to Pearl having come up through Panama. Can't remember what Lexington was up to (doing this off top of my head). Fact checkers can correct my memory if it is off.


You mean Kimmel - when Halsey took Enterprise to Wake, Nimitz wasn't at Pearl yet. Lady Lex was en route to Midway to deliver scout bombers. Sara was at San Diego picking up her air group after overhaul at Puget Sound Naval Yard.

About the myth of the "missing main targets" see http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/myths/Missing_Carriers.html - it concludes:

"Enterprise and Lexington were out of port on Dec. 7th under orders of Adm. Kimmel, not anyone in Washington D.C. Enterprise would have made it back into port on Dec. 5th if the weather hadn't delayed her. No human being prevented her from being there on the 7th. It was widely known that she was scheduled to be there on that date. After the start of hostilities both carriers were directed to locate and engage the enemy, despite facing unknown odds. It cannot be said, then that the carriers were "safely out of port" if they are just going to be sent to look for trouble when the shooting starts.

Given the above information it is clear that there was no "grand strategy" to save the carriers by someone who "knew" that the next war would be dominated by flat-tops. It is also clear that there were 8 "old and useless" battleships in Pearl that day because one of our most respected and talented admiral ordered three of them to proceed under normal schedule and return to harbor on the 6th. And finally, it is also clear that the carriers, instead of being wrapped in cotton and stashed away in a box like fragile Christmas ornaments, were being used as warships with orders to seek, locate and destroy. If there was any conspiracy surrounding Pearl Harbor it did not include carrier conservation in its plans."


< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 11/11/2012 1:30:09 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to slinkytwf)
Post #: 47
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 6:36:03 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
my grandfather had a friend in germany, who was a pervert


How strange-what a small world! I have a friend in the UK that is a pervert. I wonder if that makes me related to your Grandfather? Or perhaps my friend in the UK is related to your grandfather?

I won't divulge the name of my pervert friend in the UK, but just ask you a completely unrelated question. Have you seen the "Australian Beauties" thread on the General Forum? Go and vote for your favorites now!
warspite1



_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 48
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 11:07:01 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
my grandfather had a friend in germany, who was a pervert


How strange-what a small world! I have a friend in the UK that is a pervert. I wonder if that makes me related to your Grandfather? Or perhaps my friend in the UK is related to your grandfather?

I won't divulge the name of my pervert friend in the UK, but just ask you a completely unrelated question. Have you seen the "Australian Beauties" thread on the General Forum? Go and vote for your favorites now!
warspite1


warspite1

Oh and btw, the current competition - to celebrate 50 years of the longest running film franchise - is for the best i.e. most beautiful, Bond Girl. We have reached the last four, these being:

Izabella Scorupco (Poland) - Natalya Simonova - GoldenEye
Jane Seymour (United Kingdom) - Solitaire - Live and Let Die
Olga Kurylenko (France) - Camille - Quantum of Solace
Eva Green (France) - Vesper Lynd - Casino Royale

I would welcome your votes.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 49
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 3:50:01 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
I'm not even sure the Japanese knew about the attack in May.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 50
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 7:56:14 PM   
Banzan

 

Posts: 288
Joined: 3/13/2010
From: Bremen, Germany
Status: offline
In general, most theories of conspiration fail the main test: How many people would have known of it, and for how long?
One person can keep a secret for his/her life, 2 people and its already difficult, 3 or more and its nearly impossible, 5+ and its impossible.

For example, "if" Richard Sorge would have informed Stalin about the attack in May '41 already and Stalin would have decided to tell the americans immediately about it, how many people would have known about it already, till President Roosvelt would have got the message?

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 51
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 8:04:30 PM   
jeffk3510


Posts: 4132
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


well at least back then they declared war on the country who attacked them

didn't the us just fight a war in iraq for 8 years, for no reason?


What is your problem?

...and I thought my wife was crazy.

_____________________________

Life is tough. The sooner you realize that, the easier it will be.

Currently chasing three kids around the Midwest.

(in reply to Commander Stormwolf)
Post #: 52
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 8:50:25 PM   
Dixie


Posts: 10303
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Can some JFB tell us when the japanese planned the PH attack?
warspite1

Have a look at FDR's personal diary... he knew all about it apparently. On reflection it was probably his idea, and he discussed the details over tea with Tojo (with whom he was having an affair) - see post 7.


Probably when they met Churchill who knew as well when they were on board the real Titanic. But of course Wiston would've already known as the Royal Family would have known, as part of the Illuminati (and undercover space lizards to boot) they would have secretly been pulling the strings behind everything that happened during WW2. It's probably the same venue when they decided to fake the moon landings and assassinate Kennedy.

The truth is out there! They just don't want you to know. Oh, hello nurse, time for my pills already?

_____________________________



Bigger boys stole my sig

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 53
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 10:37:17 PM   
jetjockey


Posts: 256
Joined: 11/23/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510


quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


well at least back then they declared war on the country who attacked them

didn't the us just fight a war in iraq for 8 years, for no reason?


What is your problem?

...and I thought my wife was crazy.

FDR Fanboy.

(in reply to jeffk3510)
Post #: 54
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/11/2012 11:42:00 PM   
Grfin Zeppelin


Posts: 1515
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline
After reading this thread I am certainly a bit dumber than before...thanks for that.

_____________________________



(in reply to jetjockey)
Post #: 55
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/12/2012 1:51:06 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie
Oh, hello nurse, time for my pills already?


I ask this on behalf of a certain pervert I know from the UK: "What is your nurse wearing?"

Again, completely unrelated to this is the fierce voting underway in Warspite1's "Australian Beauties" thread. Get out the vote!

_____________________________


(in reply to Dixie)
Post #: 56
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/12/2012 7:22:42 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie
Oh, hello nurse, time for my pills already?


I ask this on behalf of a certain pervert I know from the UK: "What is your nurse wearing?"

Again, completely unrelated to this is the fierce voting underway in Warspite1's "Australian Beauties" thread. Get out the vote!
warspite1

I think you are flogging a dead horse on the AB front CB But thank-you anyway.......



_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 57
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/12/2012 8:37:43 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
The only useful piece of information in this entire thread is ... Jane Seymour.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 58
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/12/2012 12:35:34 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

The only useful piece of information in this entire thread is ... Jane Seymour.
warspite1

In which case obvert old son, may I suggest you head off to the General Discussion forum and the Australian Beauties thread? The luvverrlly Ms Seymour needs your vote! as do either Olga Kurylenko or Eva Green

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 59
RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? - 11/12/2012 4:29:14 PM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3611
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


well at least back then they declared war on the country who attacked them

didn't the us just fight a war in iraq for 8 years, for no reason?



Well at least you're not talking about Japanese float planes attacking the West Coast and interrupting US production.

_____________________________

After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!

(in reply to Commander Stormwolf)
Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> RE: President FDR Knew About the Attack in May? Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.672