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First impressions with 1.05beta --> prestige

 
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First impressions with 1.05beta --> prestige - 12/8/2012 11:52:22 PM   
Reconvet

 

Posts: 355
Joined: 1/17/2011
Status: offline 		Good thing with 1.05beta is that the soviet Trappenjagd player should be able to easily avoid dismissal even if he can't grab his initial prestige objective Kharkow. Potentially bad could be that Trappenjagd axis seems to lose the prestige race - and with this the attrition race - too early.

I have just played a fast Trappenjagd test game for 5-10 turns, basically only moving on the crimea. Soviet side drew 2 defensive minor objectives before the end of may, each worth 2 prestige points. So if we assume that red players get 1 new minor objective each week then he will be able to harvest about 8 prestige per month under the new rules.

In a pbem Axis players will initially have to play defensively north of the crimea and will need to use most if not all reinforcements defensively until week 2 of june if he doesn't want to risk his regiments on weaker fronts worn down and broken, so he probably won't be able to grab his incoming minor offensive objectives until at least mid-june. In addition to that axis will automatically get a very tight timetable (dished out on june 5th if Kerch and Sewastopol are conquered or not) to grab Voronezh, Millerowo and Rostow, so if his minor objectives don't happen to lie near these attack vectors then axis will lose most/all his prestige he can gain via grabbing Kerch+Sewastopol by the end of june due to his failed minor objectives.

If my projections are more or less on target then axis will end june in Trappenjagd with about 12-16 prestige points, while the soviet player should be able to reach about 25-30. If so then the game balance seems to be off in this full-length scenario, as axis players will need to put a large portion of his political points into more time cards (due to the very tough deadlines for Voronezh, Millerowo and Rostow) while he'd need those pp to buy replacement cards to keep his german units strong enough during his breakout phase towards Stalingrad and/or the caucasus. At the same time the soviet player can use his prestige advantage to strenghten his forces to a degree where axis will have lost the attrition race as soon as august/september.

My suggestion would be: No defensive objectives for soviets until early june, and move the axis automatic deadline for Voronesz/Millerowo and Rostow closer to the Case Blue deadlines (early/mid-july is way too tough against a decent soviet player). Soviet pbem players more often than not will be able to reach the Case Blue start date with significantly stronger forces due to avoiding the historical Izium pocket, so for balance's sake soviets should not get a significant prestige advantage on top of that. Trappenjagd scenario (full campaign) has great potential for a nicely balanced game, so please let's keep an eye on prestige developments in the AARs that will pop up in the coming days/weeks.


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The biggest threat for mankind is ignorance.

Post #: 1
RE: First impressions with 1.05beta --> prestige - 12/9/2012 1:04:48 AM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 2811
Joined: 6/24/2008
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In my Trappen game with Wallas, I reduced the Strategic Position of the Russians so that they would get defensive major/minor missions. Our game ended on October 7th, and this is the graph of the prestige.

What was happening in the early game, is the Russians were getting minor missions to hold cities, and I was overrunning most of them before he could gain prestige for them, and instead lost it.

The major mission he kept getting was Rostov, but even then he held it for two missions and lost it on the third for a net gain of 16.

Towards the end, though, he was getting missions for cities I could no longer take...and was starting to gain and gain and gain prestige. For example, he keeps getting Stalingrad as a major mission to hold, and I was in no condition (and played the no Stalingrad card) to take it.

Most of the Russian political points Wallas spent was on the Fortification card, and moving better generals into his HQ's, and not so much on playing his replacement cards. He is always going on and on about how many points it costs to reorganize his army.

What I was hoping to do was to push him to the No Retreat stage, so he would lose his prestige faster then he could gain it...but I didn't quite make it.






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_____________________________

“My logisticians are a humorless lot … they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.” – Alexander the Great

(in reply to Reconvet)
Post #: 2
RE: First impressions with 1.05beta --> prestige - 12/9/2012 12:23:09 PM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		Maybe it is an idea to make the intelligence card a little cheaper so the germans are better able to put pressure on the defensive objectives of the Soviets?

Do you guys ever use the intelligence card?

Best,
Vic



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(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 3
RE: First impressions with 1.05beta --> prestige - 12/9/2012 1:00:40 PM   
stonestriker

 

Posts: 475
Joined: 9/29/2012
Status: offline 		Well, I have only played the AI for now, but I have never used it.

Perhaps late game, once the Replacement cards and More Time has gotten really expensive, it might be valuable to know if the Germans have played Avoid Stalingrad. But as you only get intelligence of 1? enemy High Command order, you can even be sure in this case.


(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 4
RE: First impressions with 1.05beta --> prestige - 12/9/2012 3:39:15 PM   
Reconvet

 

Posts: 355
Joined: 1/17/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Maybe it is an idea to make the intelligence card a little cheaper so the germans are better able to put pressure on the defensive objectives of the Soviets?

Do you guys ever use the intelligence card?

Best,
Vic



I haven't bought intelligence so far, there just always seemed to be more important stuff on which to invest/save my limited pp for. Might become a necessary tool if soviet players really manage to get ahead on the prestige curve.



_____________________________

The biggest threat for mankind is ignorance.


(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 5
RE: First impressions with 1.05beta --> prestige - 12/9/2012 4:08:49 PM   
Reconvet

 

Posts: 355
Joined: 1/17/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky
In my Trappen game with Wallas, I reduced the Strategic Position of the Russians so that they would get defensive major/minor missions.

What was happening in the early game, is the Russians were getting minor missions to hold cities, and I was overrunning most of them before he could gain prestige for them, and instead lost it.

Most of the Russian political points Wallas spent was on the Fortification card, and moving better generals into his HQ's, and not so much on playing his replacement cards. He is always going on and on about how many points it costs to reorganize his army.


We'll probably just have to gather some data to see how the prestige curves will turn out with games started with 1.05beta.

You were able to rapidly gain ground early in the game, while I (playing soviets) was able to block axis forces way west of Voronesz and also hold Rostow and Millerowo. Playing with 1.04beta this meant I never got to the point to draw defensive orders. I never dropped below my initial strategic level and had it up to 6 at the end of july, while my prestige had dropped to zero in the first week of june (due to Kharkow failure and unfeasible minor offensive orders) and it remained there until the end of the game in mid august (I'm lagging badly behind in my AAR, will try to add some decisive moments and other data once I find the time).

I probably used my very limited pp in a pretty similar way as your opponent. Even with just 5 pp per turn (you get that with zero prestige) I was able to fortify all important hexes around Rostow and between the hills on the approach to Millerowo (I had also placed all my digging generals in this region) by early july even while all my fronts and all but one army had received decent leaders (not top but with an org level preventing out of depth penalties). So the soviet player should get along with a prestige level a bit lower than what Wallas was able to work with.

If this had happened playing with 1.05beta my opponent would have been dismissed in early june by the way while I would have been able to get a very decent prestige level. Not all Axis players will get breakthroughs as fast as you achieved them and/or can get the soviets on the run fast enough, and if the kill-ratio rather tends toward the soviet side then Axis will run into a brick wall quite soon if he also loses the prestige race (due to bleeding out his divisions and not being able to replace enough of his losses via card investments).

We'll have to wait and see if in Trappenjagd (full campaign) Axis shouldn't get some more love prestige-wise early in the game, or at least less strict deadlines for Voronesz/Millerowo/Rostow (closer to the deadlines in the CB scenario) to prevent the forced derailing of his political points for ever more costing more time cards.



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The biggest threat for mankind is ignorance.


(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 6
RE: First impressions with 1.05beta --> prestige - 12/9/2012 10:11:12 PM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 2811
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline

My goal is to get two of the three objectives..actually, it is to get Millerowo with a two pronged panzer attack, and either Rostov or Voronezh using all my artillery, and the 11th army. Two of the three isn't too bad, as that nets me 8 prestige.

One of the reasons I started the Russians at a defensive level was because I joked that I could win the game by not taking any of the cities that allow the Russians to go defensive. But it seems that Vic has that fixed.

My gut feeling is that the Russians will gain prestige easier then the Germans, unless they get hit by No Retreat. If that happens, will the Russians have enough prestige to weather the loss of vps/prestige until they can stabilize the front during winter?

As for the intelligence card, I would never play it, even if it was cheap. It is easy to figure out what major's the enemy has (and are usually cities I am pushing for anyways), and a lot of the times, I could figure out when my opponent was trying to hold a minor.

Perhaps the major missions should be tied together. If the Germans get a mission to take Stalingrad, the Russians should get one to defend it. The minors could be similar.

_____________________________

“My logisticians are a humorless lot … they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.” – Alexander the Great

(in reply to Reconvet)
Post #: 7
RE: First impressions with 1.05beta --> prestige - 12/10/2012 4:57:01 PM   
wallas

 

Posts: 219
Joined: 2/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic
Do you guys ever use the intelligence card?
Best,
Vic


I never played it was a luxury I felt I could not afford.

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 8
RE: First impressions with 1.05beta --> prestige - 12/11/2012 2:08:11 AM   
BossGnome

 

Posts: 658
Joined: 5/29/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Same.

I see it in the same way as the "ambition" card; there is no guarantee that it will provide a benefit, except that with ambition at least you get an immediate "1" prestige bonus. I might play the card sometimes if it was the same price as "ambition."

_____________________________

"Hard pressed on my right; my left is in retreat. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking."
-Gen. Joffre, before the battle of the Marne

(in reply to wallas)
Post #: 9
RE: First impressions with 1.05beta --> prestige - 12/11/2012 5:59:10 AM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 2811
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline

Ambition I played lots as the german. Probably 4 or 5 times. I think all but one succeeded too.

I played them in the beginning, when the Russians begin their retreat to the Don river. At least twice I got an empty city near the front lines. Although in other games, I have gotten Azov.

If you know your opponent is going to retreat, or is retreating, then the card can be useful. Similar for the Russians..if they know they are not going to retreat for a while (winter hits), then they can play it to get some free prestige.

_____________________________

“My logisticians are a humorless lot … they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.” – Alexander the Great

(in reply to BossGnome)
Post #: 10
RE: First impressions with 1.05beta --> prestige - 12/11/2012 6:19:35 AM   
BossGnome

 

Posts: 658
Joined: 5/29/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I absolutely agree; I also have played ambition quite a few times as the germans. Usually in the opening turns it is great as the Soviets will need to retreat, and high command's objectives are usually very reasonable.

The intelligence card would benefit from a) being much, much cheaper (im picturing 5 pps), and from giving an immediate small bonus, like the Ambition card does. As to what that bonus might be, I really don't know.

_____________________________

"Hard pressed on my right; my left is in retreat. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking."
-Gen. Joffre, before the battle of the Marne

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 11
RE: First impressions with 1.05beta --> prestige - 12/11/2012 7:26:42 AM   
Bonners


Posts: 486
Joined: 8/24/2012
From: Kinmel bay
Status: offline 		If you play the ambition card as Soviets and you are classed as being on the defensive, does that mean you get hold objectives, rather than take ones?

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Post #: 12
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