RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Saper)

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RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/3/2013 1:09:33 AM

M60A3TTS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

5. Two airbases per Front are stacked with 9 fighter groups. Of the total of 18 fighter groups 4 or 5 are set to night missions as Saper loves to bomb my HQs at night. Two airbases per Front are stacked with from 6 to 9 tactical bomber groups. Two are stacked with 4 level bomber groups and the final airbase has 1 recon airgroup and 3 level bomber groups (with good range) set to Night missions.

Keep in mind that frontal aviation supports the front units. If a front is not active, planes don't fly. So be prepared to concentrate air units and their parent bases to be attached to fronts where the action is the hottest.

(in reply to Harrybanana)

Post #: 241

RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/3/2013 2:06:36 AM

Walloc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

Here is what I am doing:

1. Each turn as my first action I send to Reserve all air units that have morale of less than 45 (I note that MT uses the same number, what are the odds of that)
2. Each turn I also send to Reserve all units with less than 30% ready aircraft. This I learned from MT, but I can't remember now what number he uses as his %.
3. Each turn I make sure that all aircraft that I want to upgrade to newer aircraft are set to auto-upgrade and all others are set to Manual. I prefer to let the computer upgrade my aircraft for me to save APs, but sometimes I will upgrade a particularly high morale/high experience unit that is flying crap to a better model.

So what am I doing right and what am I doing wrong?

I read MT comments and wondered. I would say its not quite how i run my Red Airforce. My goal is to get a more competetive Red airforce. Thats mean u need the moral and exp to go up in the units. This is not some thing that is done over night. Less u get them up to "acceptble" levels they cant ever really compete with luftwaffe.
Since the rules are that u cant gain exp less u have moral higher than the experience of the unit and since the chance of exp rising is significantly higher if u have participated in combat that leads me to the following conclusion and how i have runned my red airforce.

Have units with significantly higher moral than exp used in the frontlines. As soon as moral falls to near or below exp move them to national pool to regain moral. Since u early on, easily can lose 15-20 moral if not more during one turn. i tend to have at leased 10-15+ moral over exp before i send them to the front lines. This require mucho micromanagement. This way i have an airforce that is "in constant" improvement. By mid to late 42 u will start to have a pool of fairly good figther units. There are exceptions ofc this is most importand to the tactical bomber and figther units.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 1/3/2013 2:50:50 PM >

(in reply to Harrybanana)

Post #: 242

RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/3/2013 11:48:49 AM

carlkay58

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Pelton and others:

I am playing Saper now at version 1.06.23 and he is STILL flying huge amounts of fuel to the front. In fact, he has come up with a new opening that leaves only two corps (the reserve infantry and airborne corps) not cut off after his Turn 1 moves in the Southern Front. By the time the Southwestern Front is activated, it too is cut off. In other words, AGS has almost no opponents left before the Soviets can do their first move. Couple that with his air supply tactics and his advances in the South are almost impossible to stop. His opening moves also require at least two Panzer Corps from AGC to shift to AGS.

I think he has turned off air support missions and is using the entire air force for supply drops. By focusing only on the Motorized Divisions (which require less fuel), he manages to keep these divisions in the 45+ MPs per turn. Between catching me flat footed and not being the best Soviet player around, he has done a great job on steam-rolling over the Soviets in the south and not bad in AGN or AGC either as he uses the same tactics in those two fronts.

(in reply to Walloc)

Post #: 243

RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/3/2013 12:30:19 PM

janh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
I am playing Saper now at version 1.06.23 and he is STILL flying huge amounts of fuel to the front. In fact, he has come up with a new opening that leaves only two corps (the reserve infantry and airborne corps) not cut off after his Turn 1 moves in the Southern Front. By the time the Southwestern Front is activated, it too is cut off. In other words, AGS has almost no opponents left before the Soviets can do their first move.

Hmmh, curious to see that one. The opening in the south already leaves a sour taste as it is, and it is hard not to give way to the temptation of such a save bet. Making it any harder om the Soviet...sounds almost like playing chess with a quarter of your board gone after the first white move. The I-Go-U-Go really ought to be augmented by something that allows the units to react during the static phases. Without it is really like playing chess. Maybe it can never capture the dynamics and excitment like a we-go system, but it could do a lot better to mimic it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
I think he has turned off air support missions and is using the entire air force for supply drops. By focusing only on the Motorized Divisions (which require less fuel), he manages to keep these divisions in the 45+ MPs per turn.

That's what seems wisest, both. Saper uses a good economy of force, in a sense. In 1941 you really only need the Luftwaffe air support for strongly entrenched hexes in covered terrain, or major river crossings. Else, Wehrmacht makes its superiority in all areas felt quickly even without it. It changes later, though.

(in reply to carlkay58)

Post #: 244

RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/3/2013 5:11:18 PM

HITMAN202

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If Sapper had better luck at Rostov and non-random weather, Harrybanana would probably be a peeled, bald, rotted piece of fruit. Pelton said it takes 3 campaign games to get decent. Thus , look at my logo. NOSB and I have a practice game at move 54. Because of inexperience, it's been a comedy of errors (fortunately for NOSB more than I.)

If I would simply the key skill strategy for the Germans, they need to fly east into the motherland by taking calculated risks. Tactically they need to be efficent with an unstoppable offensive. Grinding is inevitable, but Sapper has shown it can be lessened by the above strategy.

I've not played the Soviets (I've tinkered with them), but planning the composition and structure of her forces is the key strategy. Tactically they need to know where and how to defend (building forts quckly is crucial.)

_____________________________

WITE is a good addiction with no cure.

(in reply to Harrybanana)

Post #: 245

RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/3/2013 7:22:14 PM

Harrybanana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

Pelton and others:

I am playing Saper now at version 1.06.23 and he is STILL flying huge amounts of fuel to the front. In fact, he has come up with a new opening that leaves only two corps (the reserve infantry and airborne corps) not cut off after his Turn 1 moves in the Southern Front. By the time the Southwestern Front is activated, it too is cut off. In other words, AGS has almost no opponents left before the Soviets can do their first move. Couple that with his air supply tactics and his advances in the South are almost impossible to stop. His opening moves also require at least two Panzer Corps from AGC to shift to AGS.

Carlkay, if you go back to page 1 of this AAR you will see that Saper used 2 corps from AGC against me as well and isolated a lot of my Southern units on Turn 1. He performed a similar opening in at least 2 previous AARs. Are you saying that he has improved on this opening yet again? I would be very interested to see that when/if you are at liberty to show same.

< Message edited by Harrybanana -- 1/3/2013 7:41:33 PM >

(in reply to carlkay58)

Post #: 246

RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/3/2013 7:30:39 PM

Harrybanana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

If Sapper had better luck at Rostov and non-random weather, Harrybanana would probably be a peeled, bald, rotted piece of fruit.

Not sure about the "luck" part as I don't think Saper ever failed in an important attack. Even if I hadn't reopened the regular supply lines I did have beachhead supply so Saper would have had a difficult time in blizzard causing many of my units to surrender. But you are right about the weather. If we had been playing with Non-random weather or I hadn't gotten so lucky with the mud coming just when and where I needed it, I would be in a much worse position (but how did you know I'm "bald"?).

(in reply to HITMAN202)

Post #: 247

RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/3/2013 8:03:24 PM

hfarrish

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I think if anything this just proves that random weather is a must. Without that check this and many other active games would be comedic parodies of warfare. Not saying this to be a Red Army fanboy because I would admit that the blizzard model is a mess and that the Soviets derive advantages elsewhere...but with the growing ability of German players to maximize '41 logistics a non-random game for most of us would simply be suicide.

_____________________________

(in reply to Harrybanana)

Post #: 248

RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/3/2013 8:07:36 PM

HITMAN202

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Your're probably in your mid 50's, presently single, graduate of a small liberal arts college in an eastern state (Penn ??) with a BS in math or science ???? Bald ??? A nickname is often used for reason of a lack of !!!!

Your AAR's are awesome and a great read !!!!

Sapper, I think, is in the process of a getting a major blizzard *ss whipping !!! I think, even with his proven skills, experience in blizzard is crucial. Ask Pelton.

I'm hestitant to ask about the banana part of your AKA.

I hesitate to inquire about the banana

_____________________________

WITE is a good addiction with no cure.

(in reply to Harrybanana)

Post #: 249

RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/3/2013 9:40:14 PM

gingerbread

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Don't hold victory scented lure to Harrybanana's nose - see saper222 vs Kamil for a very successful blizzard followed by a disastrous summer. An extra 100k or even 200k of German KIA/MIA will not win the '42 season but overreaching could very well loose it.

I think Kamil got too hungry for blood and then were unable to prepare for the time after the good. I would suggest that you have a 4-6 mth lead on you plans so right about now you should be asking: How many Infantry Divisions will I have in May? Do I need more?

Settle for the low hanging fruit and add Rostov and possibly Tula (though Tula can't be held 'til June) but forget Stalino and the 'K':s.

(in reply to HITMAN202)

Post #: 250

RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/3/2013 10:54:56 PM

carlkay58

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Harry - yes he has improved his AGS attack. Where he is against you on Turn 4 was Turn 2 vs me. Turn 3 saw all of Southern Front cut off.

He has streamlined his attack - less extraneous effort - more focused and MUCH deadlier. Turn 2 is at the Dnepr, Turn 3 is almost to Kharkov, Turn 4 is the Dnepr bend. Some of it is probably my mistakes - I was expecting a bit more like his play against you and the others - but he has improved his plan.

I would post pictures, but I am letting him get another one or two victims first - and I can't figure how to post it unless I own the thread . . .

(in reply to gingerbread)

Post #: 251

RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/4/2013 12:31:50 AM

Schmart

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana
So what is the solution than, or is there one? With attrition + combat losses+ further and further from supply the front line infantry divisions deplete very quickly and without those merges I will soon (ie 2 or 3 turns without doing this) have very few units capable of attacking, particularly in those difficult to supply areas. Not saying you are not right, I am burning through a lot of APs to build more brigades, just don't know what the answer is. I suppose I could turn my TOE down to 50% on all units not engaged in combat, in partucular the newly arrived units that need time to train up anyway. But will the replacements reach the front line units anyway? Another possibility is to rotate units in and out of the front lines. But this is difficult when the front lines are in places 2 or 3 turns marching distance from the nearest railheads.

Largely the nature of the beast that is the Russian blizzard offensive. What I try to do, is set my attacking armies to refit, so that they get priority for repalcements. Typically one has to mass enough units in areas to get the offensive going, so that you aren't getting all units into the line all at once anyways. Armies thus end up attacking in echelon: Army X pushing ahead for a couple turns with Army Y following (on refit building strength). When Army X starts losing strength, Army Y takes over giving Army X a couple turns of rest and rebuild on refit. Alternatively, only half (or so) of each Army X and Y are attacking each turn, leaving the other half to rest, rebuild, and catch up.

You can't attack the way the Germans do. You're pumping large numbers of men (and large casualties) into the battle, but that's just a good old fashioned meat-grinder of the proletariate!

(in reply to Harrybanana)

Post #: 252

RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/4/2013 1:52:26 AM

Harrybanana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

Don't hold victory scented lure to Harrybanana's nose - see saper222 vs Kamil for a very successful blizzard followed by a disastrous summer. An extra 100k or even 200k of German KIA/MIA will not win the '42 season but overreaching could very well loose it.

I think Kamil got too hungry for blood and then were unable to prepare for the time after the good. I would suggest that you have a 4-6 mth lead on you plans so right about now you should be asking: How many Infantry Divisions will I have in May? Do I need more?

Settle for the low hanging fruit and add Rostov and possibly Tula (though Tula can't be held 'til June) but forget Stalino and the 'K':s.

I have completed most of my next turn (though I won't be able to finish up until later tonight) and you are right (as usual) gingerbread. First of all I don't think I was giving him much of beating even in the December blizzard. I had one good turn of causing 12 units to surrender (of which 10 were regiments) but on most turns I am only destroying 3 regiments or less. I'll have to look back, but in our first game I think I destroyed over 50 division equivalents during blizzard. This game I'll be lucky to destroy 12. And, of course, even though I am winning most of the battles my casualties from "winning" are generally greater than Saper's from "losing" the battle. So if I don't destroy a lot of units my overall casualties will be greater than his.

Now that January has rolled around things are getting quite a bit tougher. It is my inexperience in blizzard (this is only my 2nd afterall) not saper's that is beginning to show. I'll show you what I mean when I finish my turn and get a chance to post.

(in reply to gingerbread)

Post #: 253

RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/4/2013 1:56:29 AM

Harrybanana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

Harry - yes he has improved his AGS attack. Where he is against you on Turn 4 was Turn 2 vs me. Turn 3 saw all of Southern Front cut off.

He has streamlined his attack - less extraneous effort - more focused and MUCH deadlier. Turn 2 is at the Dnepr, Turn 3 is almost to Kharkov, Turn 4 is the Dnepr bend. Some of it is probably my mistakes - I was expecting a bit more like his play against you and the others - but he has improved his plan.

I would post pictures, but I am letting him get another one or two victims first - and I can't figure how to post it unless I own the thread . . .

Wow! I think this will be my last game against Saper. He is like one of those alien monsters in the movies that learns and adapts quickly and comes back stronger each time (or am I thinking of a superbug virus?).

(in reply to carlkay58)

Post #: 254

RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/5/2013 3:59:44 AM

Harrybanana

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T29

Saper's Defence is starting to stiffen big time in a number of areas. His overall defensive plan at this point seems to be to hold strong in a few key areas, while allowing me to advance against weak oppositon in other areas. The fact that two of the key areas he seems to want to hold are NW and SW of Moscow lead me to believe that Moscow may be on his radar for summer 1942. If past history is to be belived his preferred method to accomplish the capture of Moscow is by way of pincer movements made North and South of the City. Not saying this is his plan mind you, but I certainly have to consider that it may be.

Below is a screenshot of the Kalinin area after my turn. As you can see Saper wants to hold the area around Kalinin. I had to move some pretty strong stacks just to advance the 1 or 2 hexes I did around this city this turn.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Harrybanana -- 1/5/2013 4:00:56 AM >

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RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/5/2013 4:03:04 AM

Harrybanana

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On the other hand his defences a few hexes South of Kalinin appear to be relatively weakly defended. It would certainly be easier for me to attack the more weakly defended hexes. But to what end? Even if I could advance all the way to Smolensk (which is doubtful), if I left him alone in Kalinin I would just have to retreat back at the end of blizzard or risk encirclement.

Meanwhile you can see that his defences near Kaluga (which required considerable effort for me to capture this turn) are also strong. I think advacning too far towards Smolensk would be like walking into a trap.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Harrybanana -- 1/5/2013 5:23:31 AM >

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RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/5/2013 5:24:58 AM

Harrybanana

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As you can see below he is also strongly defending the area fromTula to Orel.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Harrybanana -- 1/5/2013 5:28:36 AM >

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RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/5/2013 5:27:57 AM

Harrybanana

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While the road to Kharkov appears to be open to me.

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RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/5/2013 5:31:48 AM

Harrybanana

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In the South he has a few pretty impressive stacks.

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RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/6/2013 3:55:09 PM

Harrybanana

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T30

One advantage to me of Saper's decision to hold in force in certain areas is that it does allow me to bag a few more units. But Saper probably isn't too worried, his manpower is still well over 3 million. Of the 11 units I have isolated this turn 9 are regiments and only 2 are divisions.

Kalinin Area

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Post #: 260

RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/6/2013 3:56:29 PM

Harrybanana

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Vyazma Area

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RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/6/2013 3:57:37 PM

Harrybanana

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Tula to Kursk

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RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/6/2013 3:59:11 PM

Harrybanana

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Kharkov Area

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RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/6/2013 4:00:12 PM

Harrybanana

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South

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RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/6/2013 4:28:55 PM

Harrybanana

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These are my top fighter air groups rated in order of experience. I have no idea if I am doing well or not in this regard. I do know that Saper continues to win almost all the air battles; which perhaps is at it should be.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/6/2013 4:30:21 PM

Harrybanana

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My top Tactical airgroups

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RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/6/2013 4:31:28 PM

Harrybanana

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My top level bomber airgroups

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RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/6/2013 5:17:08 PM

gingerbread

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Some numbers would be interesting - OOB, losses, men & ARM.

Try to extract you remaining mountain units to be used in the Caucasus Mountains (see saper vs Kamil). You might be able to hold him at Rostov/the Don, but it's by no means certain.

(in reply to Harrybanana)

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RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/6/2013 5:37:35 PM

Wuffer

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"...only a few units"??

Very well accomplished, comrade! :-)

And I disgree with Pelton, it's definitely not Sapper's inexperience in blizzard...

edit: look at the herding: last turn there was only one isolated reg S/E of V'lovgrad...

< Message edited by Wuffer -- 1/6/2013 5:40:11 PM >

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Post #: 269

RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/6/2013 8:46:35 PM

Harrybanana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

Some numbers would be interesting - OOB, losses, men & ARM.

Your wish is my command. The below figures are from prior to my Turn 30.

As you can see Saper still has more than 3 million Germans, while I am approaching 6 million. The German minor allies have hardly been scratced the whole game. I have bagged some German units this turn which I hope to destroy next turn; but overall I have destroyed very few units. I don't want to show my own destroyed units as Flavius and others are bound to chastize me for all the rifle brigades I have merged. I hope to have 400 rifle division equivalents by June 42. Of curse if Saper bags any during the Spring that could reduce that number.

Despite disbanding virtually all of my motorcycle regiments and setting my artillery TOEs at 50%, I can't seem to get my Armaments much above 200,000. Not shown is that I am still only building 31 T34s per turn. I am also only building 10 IL 2's per turn. Had I known I was going to hold Moscow I could have evacuated far more IL2 factories. Oh well.

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