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MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED

 
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MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/17/2013 1:55:41 AM   
AP514

 

Posts: 176
Joined: 11/26/2001
From: Houston,TX ,USA
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After playing the AI....I figured there was no real way to give a Human Opponent a game as the Russians but I thought I would give it a go...

CASE BLUE

Well, I just had my butt kicked in 2 turns by a GERMAN player.....he had netted(pocketed) over 145K in troops and that was the first 2 turns. No way to even put up a defense with that amount of losses. We were even playing the No cutting off troops using the North edge of the board. If we had not been using that house rule he would have pocketed another 50K-80K at least


Just confirms that I wasted my money on another Matrix game that is way out of balance for MP. To bad...



AP514
Post #: 1
RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/17/2013 2:45:33 AM   
heyhellowhatsnew


Posts: 306
Joined: 4/19/2012
From: New York
Status: offline 		That's usually the tactic in case blue, doesn't russia become a powerhouse towards late in the game? you should retreat your troops so they don't pocket it. I don't know. Maybe the player was a vet? This is a friendly community i'm sure people will come up with ways to help you out :)

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RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/17/2013 8:22:41 AM   
Isokron

 

Posts: 178
Joined: 7/31/2012
Status: offline 		While I agree that the caseblue scenario favours the germans I dont think its that totally unbalanced counting in the Soviets huge later reinforcements, you are not supposed to be able to defend at the start. We can do a new game with me as the soviets instead if you wish.

The Trappenjagd scenario is probably better balanced although favouring the soviets somewhat imho.

(in reply to heyhellowhatsnew)
Post #: 3
RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/18/2013 7:53:36 AM   
Bonners


Posts: 486
Joined: 8/24/2012
From: Kinmel bay
Status: offline 		It is a real shame that you have had a bad experience of the game, but I wouldnt write the game off after one PBEM. Without wanting to unduly embarrass him I would say that Isokron is one of the most experienced and clever players of Case Blue. Maybe you could take something else out of the game with him rather than writing it off completely? I played two games against Isokron and got severely walloped in both, but I learnt at lot and he gave me a lot of tips that I've tried to take forward in other games.

I'm currently playing Olivier at Case Blue as Germans and I think it is fair to say that the game could end up going the distance and the eventual winner is in the balance. I learnt from Isokron and had a good couple of first turns and wiped out or pocketed about 100k of Russian troops. Yet Olivier is still very much in the game two months later and the balance of power keeps swinging back and forth. So those catastrophic losses can be dealt with in the long term. We didnt even have a house rule for the Soviet aircraft, so I was able to wipe a large number out early on, yet he is now in the ascendancy in the air war.

I think it is fair to say that Olivier is a better player than me, but he is not too experienced as the Soviet side in the Case Blue scenario which has hopefully made it an even game. The point being that maybe it is possible for the game to carry on long term?

One other thing we have done is made a house rule that the German will not carry on the offensive in the north after Voronezh. I think that has been fairly vital as without it the Russian player cannot shore up his northern flank and it is very difficult to defend against. Maybe that is something you could consider for future games?

I hope the one experience doesnt put you off and you feel like you can have another go at the game, although I fully appreciate in can be frustrating when your Soviet forces get wiped off the map early on.
Post #: 4
RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/18/2013 1:54:16 PM   
Redmarkus5


Posts: 4456
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: 0.00
Status: offline 		I did exactly that (OP) to my Soviet MP opponent and then I raced east. However, by the time I got anywhere near Stalingrad, my supplies were a mess and the enemy was cutting my spearheads off left right and centre. Don't give up after two turns - it's tougher for the Axis than you think and they have a long way to go...

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(in reply to Bonners)
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RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/18/2013 3:51:50 PM   
olivier34

 

Posts: 1055
Joined: 5/10/2010
From: montpellier
Status: offline 		Absolutly. Follow Bonners AAR. I have suffer during the summer but things will change, my red baby is growing up and will be a giant when winter comes
The only thing that need to be fix is the oil problem that the axis should encounter at some point (like in history, right ?).

(in reply to Redmarkus5)
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RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/19/2013 8:20:33 AM   
Bonners


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From: Kinmel bay
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quote:

ORIGINAL: olivier34

.....my red baby is growing up and will be a giant when winter comes



....and the bigger they are the harder they fall

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RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/20/2013 11:32:25 AM   
jonny211

 

Posts: 96
Joined: 11/13/2003
Status: offline 		Hiya AP514,

I feel your pain as the Russians, particularly against Mr. Isokron who is one of the better players... I have heard that when Zhukhov went to bed he asked the majors to check in the wardrobe and under the bed just in case Isokron was hiding there.

In any case I think that the Case Blue scenario is still unbalanced for PBEM, the Germans can of course cut off and destroy a huge chunk at the beginning but the reinforcements still don't come fast enough for the Russians and if the dismissal rule is being used then the Russian player loses even faster.

If the Germans had less divisions perhaps the it may be a bit more balanced but as it is Rostov is only hard part and once the Germans are into the Caucasus it's game over for any Russian divisions in the south. In the north the Germans can press on past Voronezh and then once Saratov is taken (and that's not hard) then it's game over for any Russians west of the Wolga.

Just my tuppence.

Jon

[edit] As an afterthought does the game have any way to recognize if a town has been taken or not.. say if Usman, Dobrinka etc in the north fall under German control another Russian infantry division arrives at Saratov.

< Message edited by jonny211 -- 2/20/2013 12:09:21 PM >

(in reply to Bonners)
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RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/21/2013 4:49:36 PM   
Isokron

 

Posts: 178
Joined: 7/31/2012
Status: offline 		Don't say stuff like that or I might never find an opponent again, who would risk playing against someone that could lay in ambush under your bed?

(in reply to jonny211)
Post #: 9
RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/22/2013 8:33:58 PM   
Uxbridge


Posts: 1505
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Uppsala, Sweden
Status: offline 		Fancy a game Isokron, with you as the Germans?

Nay, only kidding.

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Post #: 10
RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/23/2013 11:28:16 PM   
Keunert


Posts: 886
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Status: offline 		you really stopped after two turns?

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RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/24/2013 12:35:28 AM   
Toby42


Posts: 1626
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: Central Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Keunert

you really stopped after two turns?


Yea, his story doesn't make sense???

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Tony

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Post #: 12
RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/24/2013 3:24:26 AM   
CarnageINC


Posts: 2208
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: Rapid City SD
Status: offline 		A rage quiter! NICE! You don't see these very often

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Post #: 13
RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/24/2013 8:42:20 PM   
Keunert


Posts: 886
Joined: 9/9/2010
Status: offline 		early birds catch the rage

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Post #: 14
RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/25/2013 12:05:56 AM   
parusski


Posts: 4804
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Jackson Tn
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Keunert

you really stopped after two turns?


I am on my millionth turn. What does that make me??

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(in reply to Keunert)
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RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/25/2013 12:21:02 AM   
Toby42


Posts: 1626
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: Central Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: Keunert

you really stopped after two turns?


I am on my millionth turn. What does that make me??


But are you winning, or losing ???

_____________________________

Tony

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 16
RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/25/2013 1:02:37 AM   
LiquidSky


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Joined: 6/24/2008
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There is a fairly steep difficulty between playing an AI and playing a human. Even if you think you have got the game beat, playing against the AI, there will be a rude shock the first time you play PBEM.

The best way to look at it, is those enemy pieces will move in a way that will screw you up the most. Always. If you think you are about to encircle them, they will escape. If you leave weak flanks, they will get attacked. If you try and stand up against the enemies strength, you will get blown over.

And don't throw your mechanized forces too far ahead, or they will be attacked.

And get worried if the front seems too quiet. Humans are smart enough to (try) hide their strength

_____________________________

“My logisticians are a humorless lot … they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.” – Alexander the Great

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Post #: 17
RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/25/2013 8:07:50 AM   
AP514

 

Posts: 176
Joined: 11/26/2001
From: Houston,TX ,USA
Status: offline

It is not Rage Quit..........On a side note I never recieved the turn back from my Opponent....so no I Did not RAGE QUIT...:P


Im state'n the fact that the game is unbalanced in MPlayer......(Maybe the German starts out with too many Points to use the Force march and Aattack cards together)....

In history the reason the germans did not win was because the russians ran away faster than the germans could move...this is why not alot of encirclements happened durimg this campaign.

in 2 turns the German has captured over 1/3 of the enemy Inf....200K out of 500K..and it is not that I had not or could have run but did not. He had them encircled on the First turn....they could not run fast enough after that.

Maybe he can post a screen shot of his turn before this next move starts...and you will see...


AP514

On the Comments .....as in most of your Post I just read them..I will not make a comment on them.

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 18
RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/25/2013 10:59:15 AM   
Isokron

 

Posts: 178
Joined: 7/31/2012
Status: offline 		Well you stated both in game chat and here that you had given up the game so I assumed it was over. But I will send you a turn tonight then. It will probably be quite rough for you though since you only seemed to have moved about half your stuff on turn two so there will be a lot of extra encirclements on turn 3.

(in reply to AP514)
Post #: 19
RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/25/2013 11:12:46 AM   
AP514

 

Posts: 176
Joined: 11/26/2001
From: Houston,TX ,USA
Status: offline
Actually I think the game is over I just wanted you to post a few Screens.........I really think that with the 28th and the 9th armies gone on the first turn there would be no way to even slow you down.

I also think the supply for the Germans should be looked at...they were short on supplies in the campaign but here you have all you ever need.

< Message edited by AP514 -- 2/25/2013 12:11:57 PM >

(in reply to Isokron)
Post #: 20
RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/25/2013 6:32:57 PM   
Isokron

 

Posts: 178
Joined: 7/31/2012
Status: offline 		Ok here is turn3 before I move for those interested. I think its more or less standard to lose some armies in the mid-north of the map for the soviets. Oliver seems to lose most of them to Bonners in their recent aar and seems to be winning anyway.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to AP514)
Post #: 21
RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/25/2013 7:03:13 PM   
LiquidSky


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Joined: 6/24/2008
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Actually, the reason there wasn't a lot of encirclements during Case Blue is because the Russians ran from the Germans. They did not try and hold them back, or even slow them down much.

As for the battle of Voronezh, it wasn't much of a battle..the Germans pretty much took out all the Russians and walked into the city.

In fact, the Russians didn't draw a line in the sand until they got in front of Stalingrad. The Germans had to push them back into the city before assaulting it. You can afford to trade space for time. Just retreating one hex back can make a huge difference. Hold only when you hit a river line....or if you can sit in hilly terrain.


I have played a few games now as the Germans. The Case Blue start does doom some Russian units to a painful death. So be it. In the fall, you will receive more units as reinforcements then you have starting on the map. Trappenjagd start will give you more units, but it will also give the Germans more time to gain territory and kill Russians.

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“My logisticians are a humorless lot … they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.” – Alexander the Great

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Post #: 22
RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/25/2013 7:36:12 PM   
Bonners


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From: Kinmel bay
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Isokron

Ok here is turn3 before I move for those interested. I think its more or less standard to lose some armies in the mid-north of the map for the soviets. Oliver seems to lose most of them to Bonners in their recent aar and seems to be winning anyway.


That doesnt seem far too different from the game against Olivier I've done a very rough comparison. Unfortunately I dont have the end of turn screenshots, so this is after my 30th June turn. yes Isokron has got further, but looking back I think I ended up pocketing and destroying the pocket by XXXX corps anyway the turn after.

SO Isokron's analysis of the game not quite being over may be true. The only obvious flaw I can see in Isokron's argument is that the Soviet forces under Olivier are about to be ground into the dust and Stalinist Russia will be just a vague memory in a few more turns

Slightly more seriously, Olivier is certainly not out of the game and I'd even grudgingly admit he is probably winning and this after he has suffered well over 600k casualties.


Attachment (1)

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RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/25/2013 8:45:27 PM   
Jay Doubleyou

 

Posts: 245
Joined: 8/12/2004
Status: offline 		Well I think the Case Blue scenario is a bit in favor of the Axis. In a match between an equal Axis and Russia player the Axis will always win.

I don't see how the Russians can recover. In recent games the Russians always drops under 400K troops, while the Axis stay around 760. That's almost twice as much! Even with the latest patch.
Once 5th Tank Army is neutralised the north is wide open and you can march on to Saratov.
The Russian reinforcement arrive to late, by the time they really arrive in large numbers the Axis player can and will be at Stalingrads doorsteps and deep into the Caucausus.
Imo a big plus for the attackers (which developers seem to forget) is the high morale. Every won battle gives you 5 extra morale. Within 10 turns all Axis units are around 90 morale, even the Axis minors become stong that way. The defender experiences the opposite, making it even harder...

What suprises is me beside that is that Russia experiences supply problems, while the Germans have no issues at all. And even now oil is never a problem, just happily race on.

They only way to make it more interesting is using a houserule about the Axis not moving to Saratov after Voronezh. In my current game we installed this houserule in turn 18 to balance the game.


(in reply to Bonners)
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RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/25/2013 11:34:00 PM   
LiquidSky


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Actually, as the germans I would never try and advance to Saratov. You have to conserve the Axis strength. They only get 300 infantry a turn. I found that when I reach September, I only fight in limited areas. In October, I only fight in one area...until finally, I can't fight no more, as my divisions are all getting too beat up.

One very effective tactic that my opponent likes to do is to group all his tank brigades into one tank army with a good leader, then throw them at an infantry line. They cause a lot of damage. (like 1200 men lost per battle.) And while they are very easy for me to counterattack...it sets up a chain reaction where my units that counterattacked have loss readiness, and can in turn be reattacked. They can also be railed around easily.

And the Russians can afford the tank losses. I can't afford the infantry.

Unless the game ends in an automatic surrender, (and that means Uralsk or Baku) you are going to be playing until spring 1943. At some point you are going to collapse as the Axis.

_____________________________

“My logisticians are a humorless lot … they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.” – Alexander the Great

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Post #: 25
RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 2/26/2013 4:02:26 AM   
WilliePete

 

Posts: 265
Joined: 8/27/2010
Status: offline 		Those are strong words and it just makes you sound like a sore loser. Have you played the game much? Are you familiar with the real history of Case Blue? Seems like you simply used the wrong strategy.

I agree with LiquidSky here. Pull back in the areas where you face multiple Panzer Divisions to avoid encirclement. You can't afford to stand and fight everywhere along the entire front. Give up land for time, and look for German spearheads that go too far and cut them off!

I would change your thinking around about the game and take a different perspective. This is a great opportunity to challenge yourself to figure out how to make the Soviets work out for you.

This is an excellent game, give it some love!

< Message edited by WilliePete -- 2/28/2013 2:23:33 AM >

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RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 3/2/2013 1:00:19 PM   
AP514

 

Posts: 176
Joined: 11/26/2001
From: Houston,TX ,USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



Actually, the reason there wasn't a lot of encirclements during Case Blue is because the Russians ran from the Germans. They did not try and hold them back, or even slow them down much.

As for the battle of Voronezh, it wasn't much of a battle..the Germans pretty much took out all the Russians and walked into the city.

In fact, the Russians didn't draw a line in the sand until they got in front of Stalingrad. The Germans had to push them back into the city before assaulting it. You can afford to trade space for time. Just retreating one hex back can make a huge difference. Hold only when you hit a river line....or if you can sit in hilly terrain.




This is so true...but in the game the Russians can not run away........the Russains ran as fast and as far as they could...until the german Supply lines were at the longest.

Also I did not just move back a hex or 2...in most cases I ran Full move to the rear....still not enough movement to get out of pockets or be caught in 1 for the next turn...




< Message edited by AP514 -- 3/2/2013 1:05:39 PM >

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 27
RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 3/2/2013 6:06:02 PM   
olivier34

 

Posts: 1055
Joined: 5/10/2010
From: montpellier
Status: offline 		You could have maybe let some units well entrench slow down the ennemy...and you have the ability to rail in the rear every turn a few divisions, something that I found very useful. (you see a division that have a low morale and integrity, you rail it to Stalingrad. One that is in a good shape, you rail it around Millerowo to build a new line of defense). I have used that a lot in my game and sometimes I have rail units that were very close to be encircled. Of course you have to accept to see a lot of your troops destroyed. The only thing that need to be fix is the oil problem that the axis should encounter at some point. The axis player should not be abble to move all his units at full speed every turn.

(in reply to AP514)
Post #: 28
RE: MP-Case BLUE WAY UNBALANCED - 3/5/2013 7:33:03 PM   
wallas

 

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Joined: 2/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Isokron

Don't say stuff like that or I might never find an opponent again


I will play you as the Russians but as I have a busy life and a game going the best I can promise is a turn a month.

(in reply to Isokron)
Post #: 29
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