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SU's in superior HQs - 3/15/2013 9:55:39 PM   
JeremyB

 

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Status: offline 		What's the point of having SU's in superior HQs? (say, Army for Germans, Fronts for Soviets)
Can the superior HQ send them through its subordinate echelons to the front units?

Thx
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RE: SU's in superior HQs - 3/19/2013 9:52:41 PM   
Gargoil

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeremyB

What's the point of having SU's in superior HQs? (say, Army for Germans, Fronts for Soviets)
Can the superior HQ send them through its subordinate echelons to the front units?

Thx


Support Unit transfers (manual or automatic) must follow the OOB structure to get from one crop (to be assigned to a subordinated) or directly to a Division (or smaller sized unit). So if you wnat 1st Corp/10th Army to get a SU from 3rd Corp/10th Army, it will have to travel thru 10th Army to get there (stopping for one or more turns there). If it were a DIFFERENT army, it would have to travel further up the command structure and back down again.

(in reply to JeremyB)
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RE: SU's in superior HQs - 3/20/2013 10:53:10 AM   
JeremyB

 

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Status: offline 		I meant, will a superior HQ ever send its attached SUs to a battle of units subordinated to a subordinate HQ? Or do superioir HQs just act as transit, but never assign SUs unless the battle included units directly attached to them?

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RE: SU's in superior HQs - 3/20/2013 2:08:57 PM   
Gargoil

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeremyB

I meant, will a superior HQ ever send its attached SUs to a battle of units subordinated to a subordinate HQ? Or do superioir HQs just act as transit, but never assign SUs unless the battle included units directly attached to them?


To be sure, we are going to need someone else to reply. I can tell you that I have always believed that a combat unit only gets support units from the HQ it is attached to (directly)... but of course, a unit can be attach to an HQ higher up the OOB, so could get support units directly from it.

Can anyone confirm?

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RE: SU's in superior HQs - 3/21/2013 1:56:34 PM   
Gunnulf


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Status: offline 		SU can be attached to any level HQ and will stand a chance to assist in combat.

However only if within 5 hexes. So Corps level HQ are more likely (if you are organised..) to be within range of the battle.
Also the chance of commitment is reduced depending on the number of combat SU attached to the HQ. So spreading them around corps HQ stand a better chance of getting the types you you want to commit if thats important (though if you really want them in the battle you can attach directly to a Div (its then free to unattach after).

So I guess in summary if you have a tightly packed front line then assigning to higher HQ is not a problem as they can assist more potential combats if in range. But the more you stack at each HQ the smaller chance each will commit (though you get more units trying and overall should get similar commitments. However makes sense to spread them across HQ with some direct attachments for important assaults or point defense.

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RE: SU's in superior HQs - 3/21/2013 2:17:27 PM   
Gargoil

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunnulf

SU can be attached to any level HQ and will stand a chance to assist in combat.

However only if within 5 hexes. So Corps level HQ are more likely (if you are organised..) to be within range of the battle.
Also the chance of commitment is reduced depending on the number of combat SU attached to the HQ. So spreading them around corps HQ stand a better chance of getting the types you you want to commit if thats important (though if you really want them in the battle you can attach directly to a Div (its then free to unattach after).

So I guess in summary if you have a tightly packed front line then assigning to higher HQ is not a problem as they can assist more potential combats if in range. But the more you stack at each HQ the smaller chance each will commit (though you get more units trying and overall should get similar commitments. However makes sense to spread them across HQ with some direct attachments for important assaults or point defense.



This is news to me (and good news) that an HQ can send support units into a battle to a subordinate of a subordinate. Surprized me really. You are sure?

Edit for Spelling

< Message edited by Gargoil -- 3/21/2013 2:19:11 PM >

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RE: SU's in superior HQs - 3/21/2013 2:32:08 PM   
swkuh

 

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Status: offline 		Can't say I'm sure of this, but there seems to be a limit to how many are ever comitted whatever the source. What support units assigned to which pieces and where is important. Popping 'em around w/o some plan is costly, as it takes a turn to allow one to activate.

Naive view, experience based, is that combat results are primarily determined by weight of force of main units. Support units, air support, artilliary all contribute to losses, though. Eventually it addsup, of course. But battle by battle seems its the main forces.

(in reply to Gargoil)
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RE: SU's in superior HQs - 3/21/2013 2:41:22 PM   
pompack


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Status: offline 		Deleted because Gunulf said the same thing better. I need to read the intermediate posts more closely

< Message edited by pompack -- 3/21/2013 2:45:48 PM >

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RE: SU's in superior HQs - 3/21/2013 3:14:34 PM   
Gunnulf


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Status: offline 		For Germany at least I would work on a plan of eventually (will take time and points) to set up all your Infantry Corps with 1 x Pioneer, 1 x Stug or PzJg, 1 x Mixed Flak, 3 x Art or Nebel. This will give you a good solid base of SU with a good chance of supporting combat. You can then hold more artillery and flak and spare pioneers at Army level (including heavy siege art and nebel maybe) and use these to respond across the army and maybe drill the heavy art and pioneers down to div level for specific urban attacks for example.

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RE: SU's in superior HQs - 3/21/2013 5:53:32 PM   
The Guru

 

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Status: offline 		Ok, so, an Army Group HQ, or even OKH, could actually send its own attached SU's to comat, the only condition eing it's within a 5 hexes range? Is this sure?

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RE: SU's in superior HQs - 3/21/2013 6:51:39 PM   
Gargoil

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Guru

Ok, so, an Army Group HQ, or even OKH, could actually send its own attached SU's to comat, the only condition eing it's within a 5 hexes range? Is this sure?


If this is true, then combats within 5 hexes of a corp HQ, Army HQ, Army Group HQ and High Command would have, even with reduced chances due to already commited SUs, significantly enhance chances of multiple support.

Up to now I always keep OKH quite far from the front, and AGs about halfway between OKH and their Armies. Only Armies themselves may (and may not) have a possibility of being within 5 hexes of combat. Wow... I may have to really push my HQs closer to the front. At least make sure Army HQs are within 5 hexes.

< Message edited by Gargoil -- 3/21/2013 6:52:54 PM >

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RE: SU's in superior HQs - 3/21/2013 7:36:44 PM   
The Guru

 

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quote:

Wow... I may have to really push my HQs closer to the front. At least make sure Army HQs are within 5 hexes.


that's if it is confirmed...

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Post #: 12
RE: SU's in superior HQs - 3/21/2013 10:04:09 PM   
Gunnulf


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Status: offline 		The advantage of HQs closer to the front is not just SU commitment - also the closer army and army group/front HQ are to the combat has a positive effect on passing secondary and tertiary test rolls if corps tests fail. I can't recall without checking the manual the exact distance that is optimum for that but I think the section is called 'command range modifier'. You don't need to go putting Army Group North & OKH right on the front line, but certainly shouldnt be sat back in Poland either :). But it can be worth making sure an Army Group HQ is near the right place in the line to influence as many critical attacks its subordinate units are going to be making.

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RE: SU's in superior HQs - 3/21/2013 10:08:20 PM   
Gunnulf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Guru

quote:

Wow... I may have to really push my HQs closer to the front. At least make sure Army HQs are within 5 hexes.


that's if it is confirmed...


Seeing is believing, try it out

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RE: SU's in superior HQs - 3/22/2013 2:37:13 PM   
Gargoil

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunnulf

The advantage of HQs closer to the front is not just SU commitment - also the closer army and army group/front HQ are to the combat has a positive effect on passing secondary and tertiary test rolls if corps tests fail. I can't recall without checking the manual the exact distance that is optimum for that but I think the section is called 'command range modifier'. You don't need to go putting Army Group North & OKH right on the front line, but certainly shouldnt be sat back in Poland either :). But it can be worth making sure an Army Group HQ is near the right place in the line to influence as many critical attacks its subordinate units are going to be making.


Woh, Nellie... On each subordinate there the name of its direct HQ, its distance and its max range. Format is this:

HQ NAME (Distance/Max Range) example: VI Corp (3/5), or 19th Army (12/15)...

Corps 5 range
Armies 15 range
Army Groups 45 range
Hi Command 90 range

(substitute Soviet Command Structure, works the same)

As far as I know, these are the only ranges from and to HQs/Units that matter for Command - unless I am totally delusional?

(in reply to Gunnulf)
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RE: SU's in superior HQs - 3/22/2013 4:22:06 PM   
loki100


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Status: offline 		well the manual states:

quote:

A command range modifier is applied to leader rating checks conducted by leaders in headquarters units to which the unit involved is not directly attached, i.e. HQ units higher up the chain of command. Naval and morale leader rating checks are exempt from the command range modifier.


which does imply that the numbers you have cited are the maxima but closer clustering makes the actual chance higher, viz:

quote:

For example, if the leader of an Army Group HQ unit that was 15 hexes away from a unit was conducting an initiative check, 5 (15/3) would be added to the random number value.


so here its dice + 5 against the commander rating, if the HQ was 9 hexes it would be dice + 3?

< Message edited by loki100 -- 3/22/2013 4:23:45 PM >

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RE: SU's in superior HQs - 3/22/2013 5:24:25 PM   
Gargoil

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

well the manual states:

quote:

A command range modifier is applied to leader rating checks conducted by leaders in headquarters units to which the unit involved is not directly attached, i.e. HQ units higher up the chain of command. Naval and morale leader rating checks are exempt from the command range modifier.


which does imply that the numbers you have cited are the maxima but closer clustering makes the actual chance higher, viz:

quote:

For example, if the leader of an Army Group HQ unit that was 15 hexes away from a unit was conducting an initiative check, 5 (15/3) would be added to the random number value.


so here its dice + 5 against the commander rating, if the HQ was 9 hexes it would be dice + 3?


Geez, if what you found is really saying that there is a difference in the modifier, not just based on if the HQs are in range, but how "much" of that range is under the max, then that AGAIN changes what methods I use to control my organization. In effect, I would want to move higher level HQs closer front, and not only that, but specifically move them closest to where I need to ensure the best chance of the Command Modifier coming up successful. This may be were I need full movement, or were I need reserves to commit, etc.

So no longer just be sure all subordinates are "within" range, but make sure to "lean" the HQ toward situations that are currently in crucial command control areas. I must admit, it is another layer of sophisticated gameplay that I was unaware of.

Can anyone confirm that what Loki's interpretation of what he found within the rules is correct?

(in reply to loki100)
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RE: SU's in superior HQs - 3/22/2013 5:31:09 PM   
Gunnulf


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Status: offline 		I don't think its a case of interpretation - the manual is pretty clearly saying that yes. Always worth a re-read. Commanders should be in a position where they can best influence the critical battles, in command and SU commitment, while ideally being able to stay in range of other sectors of the front that are less critical too.

(in reply to Gargoil)
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RE: SU's in superior HQs - 3/22/2013 5:31:18 PM   
morvael


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Status: offline 		A little bit off topic, but once you move your HQs closer to the front lines, leaders start to die in droves.

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RE: SU's in superior HQs - 3/23/2013 2:52:47 PM   
jack54


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Status: offline 		Here is a link to a nice discussion on the SU topic ... the consensus seems to be that HQ SU's will only aid units in combat that are attached to that HQ.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2658528&mpage=1&key=support%2Cunits?

From the manual..

15.4. Support Units in Combat

Support units attached to headquarters units must pass a series of checks in order to be committed to a battle. Headquarters units can only commit support units to attached combat units. The HQ unit must be within five hexes of attached combat units and be able to trace an indeterminate path of friendly hexes, which can be in EZOC, to those same combat units in order to commit support units during combat.

< Message edited by jack54 -- 3/23/2013 3:00:33 PM >

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RE: SU's in superior HQs - 3/23/2013 5:14:52 PM   
pompack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jack54

Here is a link to a nice discussion on the SU topic ... the consensus seems to be that HQ SU's will only aid units in combat that are attached to that HQ.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2658528&mpage=1&key=support%2Cunits?

From the manual..

15.4. Support Units in Combat

Support units attached to headquarters units must pass a series of checks in order to be committed to a battle. Headquarters units can only commit support units to attached combat units. The HQ unit must be within five hexes of attached combat units and be able to trace an indeterminate path of friendly hexes, which can be in EZOC, to those same combat units in order to commit support units during combat.



Don't have the manual in front of me but IIRC there is a distinction made between "attached" and "directly attached"

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RE: SU's in superior HQs - 3/23/2013 5:24:58 PM   
pompack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack


quote:

ORIGINAL: jack54

Here is a link to a nice discussion on the SU topic ... the consensus seems to be that HQ SU's will only aid units in combat that are attached to that HQ.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2658528&mpage=1&key=support%2Cunits?

From the manual..

15.4. Support Units in Combat

Support units attached to headquarters units must pass a series of checks in order to be committed to a battle. Headquarters units can only commit support units to attached combat units. The HQ unit must be within five hexes of attached combat units and be able to trace an indeterminate path of friendly hexes, which can be in EZOC, to those same combat units in order to commit support units during combat.



Don't have the manual in front of me but IIRC there is a distinction made between "attached" and "directly attached"


OK, now have the manual in front of me. The most significant entry is in section 3.1 where it defines "attached unit"

"Attached Unit: A unit that has been assigned to a headquarters unit, or in the case of support units, directly attached to an eligible combat unit. Unit attachments define the chain of command of units from a High Command level headquarters unit through any intermediateheadquarters units down to combat and support units by which command and control (C2) is exercised through the headquarters unit’s leaders. "

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RE: SU's in superior HQs - 3/23/2013 6:31:51 PM   
jack54


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quote:


Don't have the manual in front of me but IIRC there is a distinction made between "attached" and "directly attached"

quote:


OK, now have the manual in front of me. The most significant entry is in section 3.1 where it defines "attached unit"

"Attached Unit: A unit that has been assigned to a headquarters unit, or in the case of support units, directly attached to an eligible combat unit. Unit attachments define the chain of command of units from a High Command level headquarters unit through any intermediateheadquarters units down to combat and support units by which command and control (C2) is exercised through the headquarters unit’s leaders. "



Thank you very much... that's good enough for me!

< Message edited by jack54 -- 3/23/2013 9:48:32 PM >

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