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Tips for SC TF composition - 4/23/2013 3:28:37 AM   
TonyNewman

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 4/22/2013
Status: offline 		Hi Guys, I am a newb looking for some tips on putting together SC TFs. I haven't been able to find much info via the search tool (probably my fault).

For example,
How important is it have ships of similar speed? What happens if a slow vessel is part of the SC?
Does having radar equipped ships give a big advantage in night SC? Day SC?
Is there an ideal mix of BB/CA/CL/DD?
How important are the SC TF leader ratings?
How important are the ship captain ratings?
Any thoughts on torpedos in SC?

Appreciate any input.
Post #: 1
RE: Tips for SC TF composition - 4/23/2013 4:09:52 AM   
Quixote


Posts: 773
Joined: 8/14/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyNewman

Hi Guys, I am a newb looking for some tips on putting together SC TFs. I haven't been able to find much info via the search tool (probably my fault).

For example,
How important is it have ships of similar speed? What happens if a slow vessel is part of the SC?
Does having radar equipped ships give a big advantage in night SC? Day SC?
Is there an ideal mix of BB/CA/CL/DD?
How important are the SC TF leader ratings?
How important are the ship captain ratings?
Any thoughts on torpedos in SC

Appreciate any input.


1. Slower vessels don't belong in an effective SCTF. They really don't belong if you are the aggressor.
2. Night time, yes, it's an advantage (excepting very early engagements), daytime - not so much.
3. No ideal mix. Depends on what you expect to encounter, what you have to work with, and what you hope to accomplish.
4. Depends on how important a particular engagement is to you. For major engagements, having Tanaka or Lee can be critical. For smaller engagements, it may well not be worth the PPs to put a specific leader in charge.
5. The more important the ship, the more important its leader's attributes are.
6. Early war, as the Japanese torpedoes can easily win you an engagement you should by all rights otherwise lose - especially at night. Later in the war, it's the exact opposite.

(in reply to TonyNewman)
Post #: 2
RE: Tips for SC TF composition - 4/23/2013 4:16:15 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Quixote


quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyNewman

Hi Guys, I am a newb looking for some tips on putting together SC TFs. I haven't been able to find much info via the search tool (probably my fault).

For example,
How important is it have ships of similar speed? What happens if a slow vessel is part of the SC?
Does having radar equipped ships give a big advantage in night SC? Day SC?
Is there an ideal mix of BB/CA/CL/DD?
How important are the SC TF leader ratings?
How important are the ship captain ratings?
Any thoughts on torpedos in SC

Appreciate any input.


1. Slower vessels don't belong in an effective SCTF. They really don't belong if you are the aggressor.
2. Night time, yes, it's an advantage (excepting very early engagements), daytime - not so much.
3. No ideal mix. Depends on what you expect to encounter, what you have to work with, and what you hope to accomplish.
4. Depends on how important a particular engagement is to you. For major engagements, having Tanaka or Lee can be critical. For smaller engagements, it may well not be worth the PPs to put a specific leader in charge.
5. The more important the ship, the more important its leader's attributes are.
6. Early war, as the Japanese torpedoes can easily win you an engagement you should by all rights otherwise lose - especially at night. Later in the war, it's the exact opposite.


I do believe that you should try to mix like guns with like guns, particularly among ship types (all 8" CAs or all 14" BBs, for example). I think range is the most important factor here.

I have noticed that when I mix Yamato and Mutsu, for instance, sometimes Mutsu barely fires while Yamato empties her magazines (one time Mutsu didn't fire at all...). In similar TFs that have 2 Kongos instead of Yamato/Mutsu, both Kongos fire everything they've got.

< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 4/23/2013 4:17:11 AM >

(in reply to Quixote)
Post #: 3
RE: Tips for SC TF composition - 4/23/2013 4:33:44 AM   
TonyNewman

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 4/22/2013
Status: offline 		Thank you both.

Two very helpful replies in quick time - much appreciated

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Post #: 4
RE: Tips for SC TF composition - 4/23/2013 9:38:07 AM   
Barb


Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		1. Do not mix fast and slow ships for SCTF (like Iowa+Tennessee) - fast ship will lose its advantage as it will try to remain in formation
2. Radar do help, especially at night and in later years - that way even 50exp US ship can engage 70exp Jap ship
3. Ideal mix - does not exist. But I usually try to use ships of the same/similar stats - when in BB duel in daylight (long range), CLs are of almost no value (of course, they are one more target to shoot at)
4. SCTF leaders - how effective the TF is. Naval skill and aggressivity determine if combat occure, interception probability, rounds of combats, relative position of TFs, etc..
5. Ship leaders - best captain in a DD probably wont turn battle, but in command of mighty battleship....
6. Torpedoes are effective at short range - so use night and low visibility if you want to take advantage of torpedoes. Firing long lances in daylight at 20k yards is not going to produce many hits

Of course do not forget to escort heavy combatants (BBs, BCs, CAs, CLs) with appropriate destroyers. If going for gunnery duel, use destroyers with 5-8 guns and some torpedoes. If going for torpedo duel (Jap CAs), use destroyers with more torpedo tubes.

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Post #: 5
RE: Tips for SC TF composition - 4/23/2013 11:21:26 AM   
TonyNewman

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 4/22/2013
Status: offline 		Great stuff. Thank you

(in reply to Barb)
Post #: 6
RE: Tips for SC TF composition - 4/23/2013 11:33:15 AM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		There was a reason that 'sister ships' operated together. You usually want CL/CA/BB together by class. Having a SC TF with some BBs, CAs, CLs, and then some DDs together in what you hope is a floating "Death Star" will not work the way you want. In that example, you may see the CLs fire all their ammo while the BB don't use their main guns at all. Ideally through testing of others, the largest size of a SC TF should be 12 ships. Next, you want the main guns to have ranges very close together for the largest ships. Like a poster just said, have the Yamato's 18" guns with another BB with 14" guns will not work out well. I tend to have 4 large warships with 8 DDs in a SC TF if I go that large. Playing Allies, I like 4 Cleveland CLs and 8 Fletcher DDs. Unless they run into BBs, they can handle themselves very well.

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Post #: 7
RE: Tips for SC TF composition - 4/23/2013 6:43:26 PM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		12 ships is a good size for an SC TF - w/ more than that, you get more risk of collisions during combat.

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Post #: 8
RE: Tips for SC TF composition - 4/23/2013 9:15:37 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		Also remember that any SAG that has over 15 ships gets a penalty.

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Post #: 9
RE: Tips for SC TF composition - 4/23/2013 11:14:51 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Also remember that any SAG that has over 15 ships gets a penalty.


Not really a penalty, just diminishing return. But, there is quite substantial downside with big SC TF. If there are too many ships, most of them may never get into combat, plus chance of collisions is way higher.

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Post #: 10
RE: Tips for SC TF composition - 4/23/2013 11:30:14 PM   
TonyNewman

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 4/22/2013
Status: offline 		Some real gems for the newbs like me in these replies - thanks again.

Is this thread worthy of a sticky? I did a search prior to starting this thread and couldn't find much at all regarding SC TF.

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 11
RE: Tips for SC TF composition - 4/24/2013 7:38:34 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Sorry to disappoint but plenty of other threads have covered the same topic.

It is practically impossible to get anything stickied on this forum. Don't know why. Just means you have to do your own individual searching of the forum.

Alfred

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Post #: 12
RE: Tips for SC TF composition - 4/24/2013 2:21:42 PM   
towers58

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 1/25/2013
Status: offline 		I have found that an Allied 12 x Fletcher class DD Tf w/Burke, Smoot, or Moosbrugger (sp?) to be pretty effective. Great speed and excellent for hitting an atoll from about 11K yards.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 13
RE: Tips for SC TF composition - 4/24/2013 3:38:51 PM   
rockmedic109

 

Posts: 2390
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
Status: offline 		I think there is a break point on aerial spotting at 9 ships. Higher chance of spotting from the air if more than nine. Something to consider if operating near enemy airbases.

(in reply to towers58)
Post #: 14
RE: Tips for SC TF composition - 4/24/2013 4:29:47 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		I don't put the smaller old US BB's in SAG's any more. They are very vulnerable to any kind of flooding damage, especially from the Japanese LL torpedoes. They may be the same speed as the other old BB's but their use in surface combat is minimal. If I've got only old BB's to choose from I take the newer ones (West Virginia, Tennessee classes) and keep the others in bombardment TF's.

Right now I've got to IJN SAG's that keep attacking my amphibious TF's at Hollandia. The AI has Haruna in one TF and Kongo in the other, and they tag team my TF's every time I send one to resupply my division fighting there already. I've got two CV's patrolling offshore plus a half dozen CVE's but they've not been able to stop the night attacks. Unfortunately all my new BB's are at PH or in the Central Pacific escorting other CV TF's; I've only got Washington and some CA's escorting the two CV's nearby. Looks like it's time for a Guadalcanal-type night engagement; I can't afford losing too many more APA's...

(in reply to rockmedic109)
Post #: 15
RE: Tips for SC TF composition - 4/27/2013 6:07:26 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		The Prewar USN BB's should not be used in a SCTF except in extremis or when you have reasonable confidence they will meet only the older IJN BB's.

They are usefull in bombardment groups and in amphbious task froces (even late in the war) to suppress shore guns without taking severe damage. They can also be useful as bomb magnets.

< Message edited by Cap Mandrake -- 4/27/2013 6:08:40 PM >

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Post #: 16
RE: Tips for SC TF composition - 4/27/2013 6:21:33 PM   
1EyedJacks


Posts: 2244
Joined: 3/12/2006
From: The Eastern Sierras
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Also remember that any SAG that has over 15 ships gets a penalty.


Another point about a large SAG is it is easier to detect. If you are going for a sneak you might want to try a smaller force.

Detection level of your opponent increases accuracy during combat and in Bombardment TFs. Having a few ships that carry FP can help you out in the DL and they can help your screening force if set to fly ASW.

_____________________________

TTFN,

Mike

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 17
RE: Tips for SC TF composition - 4/27/2013 7:19:22 PM   
rms1pa

 

Posts: 370
Joined: 7/4/2011
Status: offline 		note those Brit C and D class cruisers top speed is 29 kts

and the one Aus Cl is 24 kts.

mixing them with a 35 knt STF is not advisable.

sad really the C&Ds have good night experience.

rms/pa

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there is a technical term for those who confuse the opinions of an author's characters for the opinions of the author.
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Post #: 18
RE: Tips for SC TF composition - 4/28/2013 9:46:06 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		I've used the old BBs up in Alaska's waters... had a few BB to BB actions up there thanks to so few airfields...

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Post #: 19
RE: Tips for SC TF composition - 4/29/2013 12:08:03 AM   
TonyNewman

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 4/22/2013
Status: offline 		Thanks again to everyone that is contributing to this thread.

Great info for newbs like me.

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 20
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