RE: Pricing Hurting Sales?

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RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/9/2013 1:34:20 AM

Kayoz

Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mansen
@Kayoz: And again you seem to be missing basic understanding of a business. The way to make a profit was through moving products - also known as making a sale. More potential sales, more profit.

Higher sales does not necessarily equal higher profit. Nvidia had huge sales volume potential with their agreement with Microsoft, but as the record shows, the price for that increase in sales was a massive LOSS. Enormous volume, enormous loss.

Finding the "sweet spot" for pricing to maximize profit is in Matrix's interest. They have the studies, business plans and market data to make those decisions - you don't. You don't have ANY data. You're an armchair business analyst with nothing to contribute and no data to work with.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mansen
Of course the income from sales have to [snip drivel]

I'm quite sure that the bods at Matrix are capable of calculating all those factors into their business plan. Indeed, I'm quite sure that it's a professional requirement at the Matrix offices.

Given that they've made decisions based on those calculations - decisions which disagree with your own calculation and data free analysis... well, it's hardly a challenging task for any reader to see who's more likely to be correct.

Once again, you've posted another rant that presents your opinion with absolutely nothing to support it.

_____________________________

�That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.� ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to Mansen)

Post #: 181

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/9/2013 2:35:58 AM

lewdog64

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Joined: 5/7/2013
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quote:

(he is disabled so definately could not afford it himself)

That is exactly my problem, I too am disabled and cant afford to shell out the $100+us for the set. I however have heard it is a good game and would like to try it out. I could afford the base game, but that is 3 years old and doesn't represent where the game is today. I guess I'll have to wait till the sale and make my decision to get the base or just look elsewhere for one I can afford.

< Message edited by lewdog64 -- 5/9/2013 2:37:15 AM >

(in reply to Numdydar)

Post #: 182

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/9/2013 3:39:15 AM

zachm

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Joined: 5/9/2013
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Aren't you guys talking about two completely different groups of customers? I am brand new here and to me getting all possible expansions at first doesn't make sense. What if I don't like the game?

I see it as a $40 game, much like any other PC game. Then if I like it, it will cost more to get a better experience. I will know what the added benefits means. If that takes a few hours or days to appreciate so be it, it's not buying them all at once. Best case, I love the game right away and know the extra money is worth it. Worst case, I have just the $40 game I don't love. I can read about the expansions to see if the new features fix any issues I may have with it.

Civilization 5 Gold Edition is $50, first Expansion is $30, second one will be $30. Do people consider the game to be $110? Its a similar issue as people don't consider Civ 5 to be "good" without expansions. But most people start with the base game.

The idea of price hurting sales could happen, but why look at the game from the point of view as someone who can't live without the expansions? Price talk and issues should be based on who may get the game, someone who has never played it before.

(in reply to lewdog64)

Post #: 183

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/9/2013 9:00:53 AM

Mansen

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Your math is wrong though Zachm. The "gold version" includes the first expansion as well as all of the DLC released up to that point. You'd be paying roughly 80$ for all of the content (once the new expansion lands), not 110 (which is roughly what you pay for "DW complete" right now)

(in reply to zachm)

Post #: 184

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/9/2013 3:39:12 PM

Kayoz

Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mansen

Your math is wrong though Zachm. The "gold version" includes the first expansion as well as all of the DLC released up to that point. You'd be paying roughly 80$ for all of the content (once the new expansion lands), not 110 (which is roughly what you pay for "DW complete" right now)

You can't understand the difference between "no", "none" and "less" - and your criticizing his math?
You can't present a single fact to support your argument, and you're complaining about the sources he cites?
You can't understand the difference - and the similarities - between "payment", "payoff" and "payment in kind", and you imply that you better understand the issues?

This is like having Mother Theresa critiquing the sexual prowess of Nina Hartley.

_____________________________

�That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.� ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to Mansen)

Post #: 185

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/9/2013 4:14:42 PM

Webbco

Posts: 682
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Any chance this thread could be locked? Nothing is being accomplished now and I'm sure I'm not the only one tired of certain people being incessantly argumentative and obnoxious in their responses.

(in reply to Kayoz)

Post #: 186

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/9/2013 4:14:53 PM

necaradan666

Posts: 256
Joined: 5/28/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

The price for a new Ferrari or Porsche is quite a lot higher than that of a Chevrolet. If we apply your statement to the automotive industry, then the executives at Porsche or Ferrari are clearly mad.

Such an unrealistic and flawed comparison.

A Ferrari is obviously cooler than a Chevy. But if like DW, as already mentioned in this thread, the information about how great a Ferrari is wasn't readily available, if the screenshots for a Ferrari looked more like a VW than a supercar, if when you buy a Ferrari you only get an inferior engine, like the original DW, and needed to also pay for the expansions that make it an awesome car... Most consumers would probably pay less for a Chevy and just start playing/driving.

Besides that, and using your own words against you, a Chevy is hardly a niche product. If your comparison was going to mean anything at all you'd have to compare the Ferrari to the Porche. Knowing little about the individual cars they both seem awesome to me, I'd buy the cheaper one if money was a concern and not worry about which is more quality built....

(in reply to Kayoz)

Post #: 187

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/9/2013 4:46:21 PM

necaradan666

Posts: 256
Joined: 5/28/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zachm

Aren't you guys talking about two completely different groups of customers? I am brand new here and to me getting all possible expansions at first doesn't make sense. What if I don't like the game?

I see it as a $40 game, much like any other PC game. Then if I like it, it will cost more to get a better experience. I will know what the added benefits means. If that takes a few hours or days to appreciate so be it, it's not buying them all at once. Best case, I love the game right away and know the extra money is worth it. Worst case, I have just the $40 game I don't love. I can read about the expansions to see if the new features fix any issues I may have with it.

Civilization 5 Gold Edition is $50, first Expansion is $30, second one will be $30. Do people consider the game to be $110? Its a similar issue as people don't consider Civ 5 to be "good" without expansions. But most people start with the base game.

The idea of price hurting sales could happen, but why look at the game from the point of view as someone who can't live without the expansions? Price talk and issues should be based on who may get the game, someone who has never played it before.

The few reviews I found when deciding if I wanted to purchase DW made a definite point to mention how lacking the original game is. Also merely checking the feature list after playing it for a while confirmed that the parts of the game I enjoyed most were all added by expansions, I doubt I would have purchased DW if the expansions hadn't enhanced the product so much.

In your Civ 5 example I'd say that if, as you assert, most people consider the game less than playable without expansions.. then yes I'd consider it too expensive. However with the gold edition actually including one expansion and at $50 it's still better priced than DW and I'd have no complaint.

As to your first point, for me.. if a game is a few years old I'd probably either never buy the game, or buy the 'complete' content all at once.

< Message edited by necaradan666 -- 5/9/2013 4:48:27 PM >

(in reply to zachm)

Post #: 188

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/9/2013 5:16:27 PM

doozie

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Yes, your prices ARE hurting your sales Matrix Games. They did just that earlier today when I didn't buy your Distant Worlds series.

< Message edited by doozie -- 5/9/2013 5:17:29 PM >

(in reply to necaradan666)

Post #: 189

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/9/2013 5:41:37 PM

Kayoz

Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: necaradan666

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

The price for a new Ferrari or Porsche is quite a lot higher than that of a Chevrolet. If we apply your statement to the automotive industry, then the executives at Porsche or Ferrari are clearly mad.

Such an unrealistic and flawed comparison.

Absolutely. It's an absurd argument. Thank you for agreeing with me.

I was pointing out the absurdity of comparing the prices between games that occupy different niches, have different perceived quality and replayability. To say that X should be the same price as Y, solely on the basis that it's the same sort of product (in this case, cars) is disingenuous and misleading.

quote:

ORIGINAL: necaradan666
Knowing little about the individual cars they both seem awesome to me, I'd buy the cheaper one if money was a concern and not worry about which is more quality built....

I suspect that many Ferrari owners would disagree.

_____________________________

�That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.� ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to necaradan666)

Post #: 190

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/9/2013 5:53:53 PM

Bleek

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Joined: 10/26/2011
From: United Kingdom
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Oh dear guys come on, DW is great but it's no Porsche 911!

(in reply to Kayoz)

Post #: 191

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/9/2013 6:48:39 PM

Kayoz

Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bleek

Oh dear guys come on, DW is great but it's no Porsche 911!

Nope, it isn't. No wheels.

I wouldn't complain to Porsche that their cars are too expensive and that they could make more money by lowering their prices - as I don't know anything about their business. Yet somehow, here on Matrix forums, some people think they know better than Matrix what is good for Matrix.

Absurd? Absolutely.

Let them run their business.

_____________________________

�That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.� ― Christopher Hitchens

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Post #: 192

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/9/2013 7:05:56 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
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Hi everyone,

We hear and understand all sides on this. I can only say that we're doing the best we can to make DW as successful as possible. Not all of these efforts are seen by all customers and not all of them have come to fruition yet, but this is a top tier release for us and we are promoting it to the best of our experience and based on our best data. We agree that it has mainstream potential, though we see DW2 as the most likely point for DW as a series to truly "break out" mainly because of the engine that the original DW is based on.

It's worth pointing out that we were involved in DW from very early on. We've supported it and funded it throughout and have put in the time not just as a publisher but as a development and design partner to make it as good as it can be. We are as interested as any of you in making sure it reaches the widest possible audience and has the greatest possible success.

It's also worth noting that you do not have to buy all the releases at once. I realize the expansions add a lot and for that reason folks like to jump in at the most recent level, but many also forget that the original game is pretty darn good and for someone who has never played DW before, it still serves as a great starting point if budget is a concern.

Final point, please keep things civil and agree to disagree when necessary or I will have to lock this thread.

Regards,

- Erik

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 5/9/2013 7:06:54 PM >

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For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to Kayoz)

Post #: 193

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/9/2013 7:12:53 PM

Gargoil

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bleek

Oh dear guys come on, DW is great but it's no Porsche 911!

Nope, it isn't. No wheels.

I wouldn't complain to Porsche that their cars are too expensive and that they could make more money by lowering their prices - as I don't know anything about their business. Yet somehow, here on Matrix forums, some people think they know better than Matrix what is good for Matrix.

Absurd? Absolutely.

Let them run their business.

I was staying out of this, but here someone finally struck a nerve. I finally see what the difference in both camps are now.

1) the people for better pricing and bundling - they want a larger playerbase, be that their own sale or sales to others.
2) the people to leave Matrix to their own devices feel Matrix knows what's best for Matrix, and that is automatically what's best for the game, and by default, what is best for the players.

I have to say I fall in with 1) above. Publishers will not conscentrate on their BEST games, it will put them into their MOST POPULAR ones. Hell, their most popular is their BEST from their standpoint. DW is definately one of Matrix's best products. They have judge it to be "niche". So there model for a niche game is to keep pricing high that Matrix applies to DW,

(in reply to Kayoz)

Post #: 194

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/9/2013 8:05:14 PM

lewdog64

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dw2 huh, maybe I'll just wait for that, if I still remember this game and this company after that 2 years in development.

(in reply to Gargoil)

Post #: 195

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/9/2013 8:36:16 PM

Kayoz

Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gargoil
2) the people to leave Matrix to their own devices feel Matrix knows what's best for Matrix, and that is automatically what's best for the game, and by default, what is best for the players.

I think you are misunderstanding what I've written.

I do not believe that "Matrix knows what's best for the game". Erik has gone to great pains to solicit advice and suggestions from the community. Many things have been changed since the initial release. The participation in the community and Matrix's (largely positive) response to the community shows quite clearly that they would not claim to "know what's best for the game", nor that they know "what's best for the players". To state that the community or Matrix engages in practices agreeing with your statement is contradictory to the historical evidence.

I contend that Matrix's business decisions should be left to them. However, some people post drivel on the forums that challenge their business activities without any quantitative knowledge of the factors going into those decisions. That is - they make statements based on ignorance and supposition, with nothing more than their bloated egos to support their arguments. If one is not in a position of ignorance, and can present an argument for a change in their business practices that is supported by documented fact... well, I'm still awaiting that forum post.

< Message edited by Kayoz -- 5/9/2013 8:46:54 PM >

_____________________________

�That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.� ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to Gargoil)

Post #: 196

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/9/2013 8:58:05 PM

Gargoil

Posts: 389
Joined: 1/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gargoil
2) the people to leave Matrix to their own devices feel Matrix knows what's best for Matrix, and that is automatically what's best for the game, and by default, what is best for the players.

I think you are misunderstanding what I've written.

I do not believe that "Matrix knows what's best for the game". Erik has gone to great pains to solicit advice and suggestions from the community. Many things have been changed since the initial release. The participation in the community and Matrix's (largely positive) response to the community shows quite clearly that they would not claim to "know what's best for the game", nor that they know "what's best for the players". To state that the community or Matrix engages in practices agreeing with your statement is contradictory to the historical evidence.

I contend that Matrix's business decisions should be left to them. However, some people post drivel on the forums that challenge their business activities without any quantitative knowledge of the factors going into those decisions. That is - they make statements based on ignorance and supposition, with nothing more than their bloated egos to support their arguments. If one is not in a position of ignorance, and can present an argument for a change in their business practices that is supported by documented fact... well, I'm still awaiting that forum post.

Kayoz, I respect your logic, and actually agree with it.

But, selfishly on my part, I am stating that what is best for us players is not necessarily being served by Matrix in their pricing and bundling policies. I concede that it is, in their best judgement, what is best for their company.

Erik has been exceptional, and this game shows it. It went from a fairly good game to a truely great game. And this new expansion is sure to boost it even further, probably into an all time great. But I am sure that the portion of the playerbase that is arguing for lower pricing and better bundling are thinking that it cannot be an all time great if the number of people who try it does not rise dramatically.

So, Kayoz, you are not wrong, but please understand that the others on this forum who are pushing for this game to be more more accessible to the masses have a vested interest for that to occur. They may not be right, but their opinions are base on some very solid ground that it would be better for us, the players who love this game.

< Message edited by Gargoil -- 5/9/2013 9:00:16 PM >

(in reply to Kayoz)

Post #: 197

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/9/2013 10:45:05 PM

necaradan666

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@Kayoz

Hahaha. Truly amusing way to respond, you know instead of actually deliberating. It's okay, I was bored anyway and the lack of reading comprehension, contradictory statements and general hostility in this thread were wearing thin.

Glad to see so many posts from Erik in here, proves they understand our concerns. Looking forward to Shadows.

< Message edited by necaradan666 -- 5/9/2013 10:46:51 PM >

(in reply to Kayoz)

Post #: 198

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/10/2013 1:47:30 AM

Lithari

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Believe it or not, I never even heard of this game before a couple of days ago, I was playing Stardrive, a decent game, still has bugs, which is fine and all and I think if the game is good, its worth the price and I am not cheap in the sense that if its more then �10 I skip it, but I am a bit cautious about spending nearly �63 all at once for a single game and 2 expansions.

I am not a marketing or a business genius or anything, I just think a 'all-in-one' boxset would be more worthwhile, where you save like �10 or something when buying them all in one package.

(in reply to DMan777)

Post #: 199

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/10/2013 4:01:58 AM

Numdydar

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Joined: 2/13/2004
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But you do get a discount if you by the base game and the two expansions at the same time. So there is a 'bundled' price already avaiable. And the discount is not time limited or anything

. It will be there today and a month from now.

(in reply to Lithari)

Post #: 200

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/10/2013 4:47:54 AM

Kayoz

Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lithari
I am a bit cautious about spending nearly �63 all at once for a single game and 2 expansions.

Erik has posted that there will be a bundle discount when Shadows is released. I'd suggest waiting for Shadows before buying, if you want to save a few bob.

_____________________________

�That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.� ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to Lithari)

Post #: 201

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/10/2013 6:29:06 AM

Lithari

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lithari
I am a bit cautious about spending nearly �63 all at once for a single game and 2 expansions.

Erik has posted that there will be a bundle discount when Shadows is released. I'd suggest waiting for Shadows before buying, if you want to save a few bob.

Already bought the game and the 2 expansions, though the game is confusing me all to hell. lol

Still trying to figure out how to make it work the way I want, the right stuff automated and stuff like that.

(in reply to Kayoz)

Post #: 202

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/10/2013 9:15:42 AM

Mansen

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Joined: 5/3/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lithari

Still trying to figure out how to make it work the way I want, the right stuff automated and stuff like that.

The easiest way to adapt to the game in my opinion is to head over to the options menu and automate everything on the left side, and change all of the right side options to "Suggest". This way you can let the AI handle the game for you, but still allowing you to take control of anything you wish - and it suggests everything to you, so that you know what is appropriate to do at the time.

Watching a few episodes of Das's playthroughs on Youtube doesn't hurt either to get acquainted with the interface and initial goals.

(in reply to Lithari)

Post #: 203

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/10/2013 9:44:14 AM

Kayoz

Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lithari
Still trying to figure out how to make it work the way I want, the right stuff automated and stuff like that.

I's suggest Jeeves' "quick strategy guide". It has most of the "gotchas" for new players covered. I have some quibbles with her methods (her advised custom base research megacenter seems like a rule-rape, and she doesn't mention chromium as a common resource bottleneck). That said, it's probably the best, most comprehensive starter guide I've seen.

_____________________________

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Post #: 204

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/10/2013 10:02:51 AM

Bleek

Posts: 720
Joined: 10/26/2011
From: United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lithari

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lithari
I am a bit cautious about spending nearly �63 all at once for a single game and 2 expansions.

Erik has posted that there will be a bundle discount when Shadows is released. I'd suggest waiting for Shadows before buying, if you want to save a few bob.

Already bought the game and the 2 expansions, though the game is confusing me all to hell. lol

Still trying to figure out how to make it work the way I want, the right stuff automated and stuff like that.

Make sure you watch Das's walkthroughs on YouTube, they will help you a lot!

(in reply to Lithari)

Post #: 205

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/10/2013 12:02:31 PM

Mansen

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Joined: 5/3/2013
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Any chance you could divulge when the sale will be on, Erik? My cold turkey is starting to itch

(in reply to Bleek)

Post #: 206

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/10/2013 12:07:38 PM

Bleek

Posts: 720
Joined: 10/26/2011
From: United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mansen

Any chance you could divulge when the sale will be on, Erik? My cold turkey is starting to itch

You should see a doctor about that.

(in reply to Mansen)

Post #: 207

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/10/2013 12:42:30 PM

Webbco

Posts: 682
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bleek

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mansen

Any chance you could divulge when the sale will be on, Erik? My cold turkey is starting to itch

You should see a doctor about that.

Too much info. Hope Shadows will be enough to scratch his Cold Turkey good and proper.

(in reply to Bleek)

Post #: 208

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/10/2013 12:45:00 PM

Mansen

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One can only hope - I have to admit it is a very addictive game.

(in reply to Webbco)

Post #: 209

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 5/10/2013 2:18:37 PM

necaradan666

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Joined: 5/28/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lithari
Still trying to figure out how to make it work the way I want, the right stuff automated and stuff like that.

It's probably not necessary to add.. read everything.
kids these days can't figure games out even when it says 'press X to continue' right on the screen, so I'm just making sure.

(in reply to Kayoz)

Post #: 210