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ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 11:05:49 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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For a long while I've been hearing that the Allied production numbers are just a portion of what the Allies get each month and that the incoming groups have a lot of extra planes that change the scope of the Allied OOB considerably. I finally had some time to explore this further.

I counted up the incoming group numbers, then calculated the production number for all nations throughout the war, including the Soviet numbers only for 45. For incoming US Navy groups I counted only the CVE replenishment groups, not the normal operating CV groups as the Japanese side also gets filled out groups for the CVs. This is really an assessment of how to think about the numbers to be able to compare the sides capabilities throughout the campaign.

Someone may have done this before, and I might have done a lot of work for nothing, but it was interesting and I learned a bunch. Here it is.

-

< Message edited by obvert -- 7/3/2013 11:20:38 AM >

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

Post #: 1

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 11:08:10 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

DECEMBER 41 - DECEMBER 42

FIGHTERS - Incoming groups

DECEMBER 41

25 P-40E
18 Hurri IIb
17 F4F-3
-------
60

JANUARY 42

25 P-40E
25"
25 "
25 "
5 "
16 Hurri IIb
16 "
16 "
16 Hurri IIa
16 "
12 B-339D
25 P-400
25 P-39D
25 "
25 "
5 "
25 "
25 "
25 "
5 "
----------------------
383

FEBRUARY 42

12 Beinheim IF
----------------------
12

MARCH 42

16 Hurri I
16 "
18 F2-A2
18 F4F-4
18 F2A-3
18 "
16 Hurri IIb
16 Kittyhawk IA
16 "
16 "
-----------------------
168

APRIL 42

12 F4F-3P
5 P-40B
16 Kittyhawk I
----------------------
33

MAY 42

18 F2A-3
18 "
16 Hurri IIc
16 Hurri IIc
25 P-40E
25 "
25 "
5 "
-------------------
148

JUNE 42

12 Kittyhawk IA
12 "
16 Hurri XIIb
16 "
16 Hurri IIc
16 Kittyhawk I
-------------------------
88

JULY 42

18 F4F-4
18 "
16 Mohawk
25 P-39D
25 "
25 "
25 P-38E
25 "
25 "
------------------------------
202

AUGUST 42

6 P-39D
16 Spitfire Vc
16 "
16 "
28 F4F-4
6 B-339-23
25 P-39D
6 "
---------------------
150

SEPTEMBER 42

25 P-38E
12 P-66
12 "
-----------------------
49

OCTOBER 42

18 F4F-4
28 "
28 "
28 "
25 P-39D
25 P-40E
12 Kittyhawk IA
-------------------------
164

NOVEMBER 42

25 P-38F
-------------------------
25

DECEMBER 42

0

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1744/13 = 134.2/month DEC 41 - DEC 42

PRODUCTION - DEC 41 through DEC 42

FIGHTERS

USAAF

P-39D
25/month x 13 months = 325

P-40E
35/month x 10 months = 350

P-400
36/month x 2 month = 72

P-38E
24/month x 1 month = 24

P-38F
40/month x 2 months = 80

p-43A-1
12/month x 1 month = 12

P-40K
65/month x 3 months = 195

P-38G
20/month x 3 months = 60
-----------------------------------------------------
1118

USN/USMC

F2A-3
28/month x 1 month = 28

F4F-3A
4/month x 3 months = 12

F4F-4
45/month x 10 months = 450

F4F-3P
8/month x 9 months = 72
-----------------------------------------------------
562

RAAF

B-339-23
7/month x 2 months = 14

Kittyhawk IA
15/month x 9 months = 135

Spitfire Vc
18/month x 3 months = 54
------------------------------------------------------
203

RNZAF

Kittyhawk IA
8/month x 6 months = 42
-------------------------------------------------------
42

RAF

Sea Hurri Ib
5/month x 11 months = 55

Hurri Ib
16/month x 8 months = 128

Martlet II
9/month x 6 months = 54

Mohawk IV
10/month x 4 months = 40

Buffalo I
12/month x 1 month = 12

Hurri IIc
36 x 7 months = 252
---------------------------------------------------------
541

DUTCH

Hurri IIb
12/month x 1 month = 12

P-40E
27/month x 1 month = 27
--------------------------------------------------------
39

CANADA

Kittyhawk I
8/month x 10 months = 80

Hurri XIIb
24/month x 3 months = 72

Kittyhawk III
12/month x 2 months = 24
---------------------------------------------------------
176

CHINESE

P-43A-1
12/month x 5 months = 60

P-66 Vanguard
13/month x 6 months = 78

P-40E
9/month x 1 month = 9
---------------------------------------------------------
147

TOTALS - Dec 41- Dec 42
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2505
+ 1744
------------------------------------------------
4279 (329.2/month)

-

< Message edited by obvert -- 8/14/2017 7:14:17 AM >

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 11:11:24 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

JANUARY 43 - DECEMBER 43

FIGHTERS - Incoming Groups

JANUARY 43

18 F4F-3
18 "
18 "
18 F4F-4
---------------------------------
72

FEBRUARY 43

25 P-38G
----------------------------
25

MARCH 43

25 P-39D
16 Kittyhawk III
----------------------------
41

APRIL 43

16 A-36
16 "
16 "
16 "
28 F4F-4
16 Spitfire Vc
--------------------------------
108

MAY 43

25 P-47D2
25 "
25 "
25 P-38G
25 "
25 "
---------------------------------
150

JUNE 43

25 P-40N-1
25 "
25 "
28 F4F-4
12 Kittyhawk III
16 "
-------------------------------------------
131

JULY 43

24 FM-1
24 "
24 F4U-1
24 "
25 P-38H
16 Kittyhawk III
-------------------------------------------
137

AUGUST 43

36 F6F-3
36 "
36 "
24 F4U-1
----------------------------------------
132

SEPTEMBER 43

25 P-38H
25 A-36
25 "
25 P-51A
16 Kittyhawk IV
36 F4U-1
--------------------------------------------
152

OCTOBER 43

24 F4U-1
25 P-47D-2
25 "
25 "
25 P-51A
-------------------------------------
124

NOVEMBER 43

16 Spit VIII
16 "
16 Hurri IIc
16 "
24 F4U-1
---------------------------------------
98

DECEMBER 43

12 Kittyhawk III
16 P-40N-26
18 Corsair II
--------------------------------
46

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1216/12 = 101.3/month JAN 43 - DEC 43

PRODUCTION - JAN 43 through DEC 43

FIGHTERS

USAAF

P-39D
25/month x 6 months = 150

P-40K
65/month x 7 months = 455

P-38G
20/month x 5 months = 100

P-38H
40/month x 6 months = 240

P-39N1
35/month x 7 months = 245

P-40N1
70/month x 1 month = 70

P-40N5
55/month x 6 months = 330

P-47D2
56/month x 6 months = 336

P-51A
9/month x 4 months = 36

A-36
6/month x 3 months = 18

P-38J
50/month x 1 month = 50

P-40N26
6/month x 1 month = 6

-----------------------------------------------------
2036

USN/USMC

F4F-4
45/month x 4 months = 180

F4F-3P
8/month x 9 months = 72

F4U-1
30/month x 9 months = 270

F6F-3
130/month x 9 months = 1170

FM-1
30/month x 8 months = 240

F4U-1A
78/month x 3 months = 234
-----------------------------------------------------
2166

RAAF

Kittyhawk III
35/month x 6 months = 210

Spitfire Vc
18/month x 10 months = 180

Kittyhawk IV
30/month x 6 months = 180

Spitfire VIII
20/month x 3 months = 60
------------------------------------------------------
630

RNZAF

Kittyhawk III
11/month x 5 months = 55

Kittyhawk IV
12/month x 7 months = 84
-------------------------------------------------------
139

RAF

Martlet IV
6/month x 9 months = 54

Spitfire Vc
12/month x 4 month = 44

Hurri IIc
36/month x 12 months = 432

Seafire IIc
6/month x 3 months = 18

Wildcat V
9/month x 3 months = 27

Spitfire VIII
32/month x 2 months = 64

Corsair II
16/month x 1 month =16
---------------------------------------------------------
655

CANADA

Kittyhawk IV
15/month x 3 months = 45
---------------------------------------------------------
45

CHINESE

P-40E
9/month x 5 month = 54

P-40N
8/month x 5 month = 40
---------------------------------------------------------
94

TOTALS - Jan 43- Dec 43
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5765

+1216
-----------------------------------------
6981 (581.8/month) JAN 43 - DEC 43

-

< Message edited by obvert -- 7/3/2013 11:30:53 PM >

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 3

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 11:14:40 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

JANUARY 44 - DECEMBER 44

FIGHTERS - Incoming groups

JANUARY 44

24 F4U-1
24 "
24 "
-----------------------------------
72

FEBRUARY 44

16 P-40N26
25 P-40N5
25 "
25 "
25 "
18 F4U-1A
18 "
16 Hurri IIc
25 P-40N5
25 "
--------------------------------------
218

MARCH 44

0

APRIL 44

36 Seafire
---------------------------------------
36

MAY 44

15 F4U-1D
27 F6F-3
----------------------------------------
42

JUNE 44

15 F4U-1D
24 F4U-1
--------------------------------------------
39

JULY 44

18 Corsair II
25 P-47D25
24 F4U-1A
27 F6F-3
--------------------------------------
94

AUGUST 44

15 F4U-1D
-----------------------------------------
15

SEPTEMBER 44

18 F4U-1A
18 "
18 F4U-1D
15 F4U-1D
25 P-47D25
-----------------------------------------
95

OCTOBER 44

25 P-51D
25 "
--------------------------------------
50

NOVEMBER 44

0

DECEMBER 44

25 P-51D
25 "
18 F4U-1A
18 F6F-5
25 P-47D25
25 "
25 "
33 F6F-5
38 F6F-3
--------------------------------------------
232

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
893/12 = 74.4/month JAN 44 to DEC 44

PRODUCTION - JAN 44 through DEC 44

FIGHTERS

USAAF

P-40N5
55/month x 6 months = 330

P-47D2
56/month x 2 months = 110

P-51A
9/month x 1 months = 9

A-36
6/month x 1 month = 6

P-38J
80/month x 5 month = 400

P-40N26
6/month x 10 month = 60

P-47D25

175/month x 4 months = 700

P-51B
30/month x 8 months = 240

F-6C
8/month x 5 months = 40

P-38L
30/month x 7 months = 210

F-6D
25/month x 2 months = 50

P-51D
150/month x 2 months = 300
-----------------------------------------------------
2455

USN/USMC

F6F-3
130/month x 6 months = 580

FM-1
30/month x 1 months = 30

F4U-1A
78/month x 12 months = 936

FM-2
128/month x 11 months = 1418

F6F-5
180/month x 6 months = 2160

F4U-1D
158 x 4 months = 632
-----------------------------------------------------
5756

RAAF

Kittyhawk IV
30/month x 12 months = 360

Spitfire VIII
20/month x 12 months = 240
------------------------------------------------------
600

RNZAF

Kittyhawk IV
12/month x 5 months = 60

F4U-1D
25/month x 4 months = 100
-------------------------------------------------------
160

RAF

Spitfire Vc
12/month x 6 month = 72

Hurri IIc
36/month x 4 months = 144

Seafire IIc
6/month x 12 months = 72

Wildcat V
9/month x 12 months = 108

Spitfire VIII
32/month x 12 months = 384

Corsair II
16/month x 9 month = 144

Hellcat I
7/month x 10 months = 70

Thunderbolt I
40/month x 6 months = 240

Seafire L III
52/month x 3 months = 156

Thunderbolt II
45/month x 3 months = 135

Hellcat FII
4/month x 1 month = 54
---------------------------------------------------------
1579

CHINESE

P-40N
8/month x 12 month = 96

P-51D
12/month x 1 month = 12
---------------------------------------------------------
108

TOTALS - Jan 44- Dec 44
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10658
+893
---------------------------------------------
11551 (962.6/month)

-

< Message edited by obvert -- 7/3/2013 11:43:08 PM >

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 4

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 11:17:45 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

JANUARY 45 - DECEMBER 45

FIGHTERS - Incoming Groups

JANUARY 45

24 FM-2
16 Spitfire VIII
16 Hurri IIc
16 Spitfire VIII
33 F6F-5
--------------------------------------------
105

FEBRUARY 45

25 P-51D
25 "
25 "
18 F6F-5
15 F4U-1D
---------------------------------------------------
108

MARCH 45

25 P-47D25
33 F6F-5
33 F4U-1D
---------------------------------------------
91

APRIL 45

33 F6F-5
--------------------------------------------
33

MAY 45

25 P-47N
25 "
25 "
33 F6F-5
----------------------------------------------
108

JUNE 45

25 P-47N
25 "
25 "
32 Yak-9
32 "
32 La-7
32 "
32 Yak-9U
32 "
32 "
32 "
32 "
32 LaGG-3
32 "
32 "
32 La-5FN
32 Yak-7B
32 "
------------------------------------------
480

JULY 45

16 Spitfire VIII
16 "
24 Seafire III
----------------------------------------
66

AUGUST 45

18 Corsair IV
18 "
-----------------------------------------
36

SEPTEMBER 45

-------------------------------------
0

OCTOBER 45

16 F6-D
16 "
25 P-51H
25 "
25 "
25 "
25 "
25 "
-----------------------------------------
182

NOVEMBER 45

25 P-47N
25 "
25 "
25 "
25 "
25 "
25 "
25 "
25 "
--------------------------------------------
225

DECEMBER 45

25 P-80A
25 "
25 "
25 P-82B
25 "
25 "
25 P-47N
25 "
25 "
25 "
25 P-51H
25 "
25 "
25 "
--------------------------------------------
350

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1676/12 = 139.7/month

PRODUCTION - JAN 45 through DEC 45

FIGHTERS

USAAF

P-38L
80/month x 12 months = 960

F-6D
25/month x 12 months = 300

P-51D
150/month x 8 months = 1200

P-47N
100/month x 10 months = 1000

P-51H
412/month x 4 = 1648

P-80A
75/month x 2 months = 150

P-82B
25/month x 1 month = 25
-----------------------------------------------------
5283

USN/USMC

F4U-1A
78/month x 6 months = 468

FM-2
128/month x 8 months = 1024

F6F-5
180/month x 11 months = 1980

F4U-1D
158/month x 6 months = 948

F4U-4
115/month x 7 months = 805

F8F-1
215/month x 4 months = 840

FR-1
18/month x 4 months = 52
-----------------------------------------------------
6117

RAAF

Kittyhawk IV
30/month x 2 months = 60

Spitfire VIII
20/month x 6 months = 120

P-51D
40/month x 6 months = 240
------------------------------------------------------
440

RNZAF

P-51D
64/month x 5 months = 320

F4U-1D
25/month x 8 months = 200
-------------------------------------------------------
520

RAF

Spitfire VIII
32/month x 4 months = 128

Corsair II
16/month x 9 month = 144

Seafire L III
52/month x 7 months = 364

Thunderbolt II
45/month x 12 months = 540

Hellcat FII
54/month x 12 month = 648

Corsair IV
45/month x 9 months = 405

Wildcat VI
12/month x 9 months = 108

Spitfire F XIV
48/month x 7 months = 336

Seafire FX
52/month x 4 months = 208

Spitfire FR XIVe
16/month x 4 months = 64

Corsair V
36/month x 3 months = 108

Mustang IV
60/month x 3 months = 180

Tempest F2
36/month x 3 months = 108
---------------------------------------------------------
3341

CHINESE

P-40N
8/month x 12 month = 96

P-51D
12/month x 12 month = 144
---------------------------------------------------------
240

SOVIET

Yak-9
144/month x 12 month = 1728

La-5FN
80/month x 11 month = 880

Yak-9D
48/month x 11 months = 228

La-7
144/month x 7 months = 1008

Yak-9U
32/month x 7 months = 224
---------------------------------------------------------
4068

TOTALS - Jan 45- Dec 45
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
20109
+1676
---------------------------------------------
21785 (1815.4/month)

-

< Message edited by obvert -- 7/4/2013 8:51:33 AM >

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 5

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 11:51:14 AM

czert2

Posts: 508
Joined: 2/10/2013
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wow, realy interesing post and very informative, put this way...i never thought that allied build up was so masive. And having something similiar for bombers will be another eye opener too :).

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 6

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 12:27:58 PM

RogerJNeilson

Posts: 1277
Joined: 4/12/2012
From: Bedlington, Northumberland, UK
Status: offline

Agreed, very useful.... even more so in a spreadsheet if anyone fancies doing it.

A shame due to the 'flexibility' of the Empire's production there can be no comparison for production.

Roger

_____________________________

An unplanned dynasty: Roger Neilson, Roger Neilson 11, Roger Neilson 3 previous posts 898+1515 + 1126 = 3539.....Finally completed my game which started the day WITP:AE was released

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Post #: 7

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 12:53:00 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

Agreed, very useful.... even more so in a spreadsheet if anyone fancies doing it.

A shame due to the 'flexibility' of the Empire's production there can be no comparison for production.

Roger

Well, that is the next part. I'd like to go back from my own IJ games and do an 'average' production count, and then there could be some discussion as to what flexibility would be possible and likely given different scenarios and situations.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to RogerJNeilson)

Post #: 8

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 1:01:32 PM

Historiker

Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline

Don't forget that there are many, many groups that have to be withdrawn - often losing their planes.

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(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 9

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 2:23:00 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Don't forget that there are many, many groups that have to be withdrawn - often losing their planes.

I have only played the Allies a few years back, so I don't remember exactly how many, but I know there are some. Only a portion are 'disband only' though, right? Even of those isn't it often possible if planned in advance to 'save' many of those planes or substitute an obsolete airframe type to be lost?

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 10

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 2:37:58 PM

Alfred

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

In practice not so easy as you need to completely fill the TOE of a withdrawing air unit to salvage what may well be a partial TOE of a frontline plane. Plus arriving groups don�t necessarily arrive with a filled TOE.

Alfred

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 11

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 2:47:50 PM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

Wow! Amazing effort Erik. This should be stickied in the war room.

I will certainly refer to this thread the next time I see the not so unusual "don�t forget the allies gets twice their production in incoming groups"

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 12

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 2:56:12 PM

crsutton

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From: Maryland
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Well, at first I was going to make some sort of snide remark about you having too much time on your hand and in sore need of a girlfriend.

But after reading through the numbers found your charts to be very informative and useful. So, thanks and just forget about that girlfriend..

_____________________________

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Post #: 13

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 3:18:30 PM

Canoerebel

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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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Thanks for the hard and useful work on this, Erik. Now, I'm looking forward to seeing you (and others) analyze the data to draw conclusion. I'm one of those Allied players convinced that the pool limitations are radically unfair to the Allies. Is that right or does the information prove differently? (I think it's right.)

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 14

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 3:35:28 PM

Skyros

Posts: 1570
Joined: 9/29/2000
From: Columbia SC
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Here is a spreadsheet with stock allied air production on it. Maybe we can graft this data into it.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3282207

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Post #: 15

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 3:54:12 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well, at first I was going to make some sort of snide remark about you having too much time on your hand and in sore need of a girlfriend. But after reading through the numbers found your charts to be very informative and useful. So, thanks and just forget about that girlfriend..

Well, we're engaged now, so I have a bit more time until the 'planning' begins in ernest.

I am a teacher, so these first few weeks of summer I can do some things at leisure before my other projects are in full swing.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 16

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 3:58:09 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
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Walloc (Rasmus) pointed out that I've not included the upgrade to the P-38 line factory for the next model. If the Allied players can confirm this is how it works then I'll adjust those numbers.

Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes.

I'd like to get the details more or less correct, but now also get up some estimates for the Japanese side, which will come in the next day.

quote:

PRODUCTION - JAN 43 through DEC 43

FIGHTERS

USAAF
P-38G
20/month x 5 months = 100

P-38H
20/month x 6 months = 120

P-38J
10/month x 1 month = 10

As its 3 seperate factories in LA they will upgrade and continue to produce. U set it up as replacements(stopping at X date), not production aka once the G stops u dont add the 20 G model that will upgrade to the H model and keep producing and so on.

So IMO it should look like this, not counting in that factories doesnt necesarrily upgrade on day one. So while overall numbers are right the individual numbers of each model can vary depending on day of upgrades in each different game.

P-38G
20/month x 5 months = 100

P-38H
40/month x 6 months = 240

P-38J
50/month x 1 month = 50

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by obvert -- 7/3/2013 4:09:52 PM >

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Post #: 17

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 4:01:16 PM

catwhoorg

Posts: 686
Joined: 9/27/2012
From: Uk expat lving near Atlanta
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes.

I literally just received some groups with 1-2 planes as the allies against the AI.
(October 1941)

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 18

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 4:19:59 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes.

I literally just received some groups with 1-2 planes as the allies against the AI.
(October 1941)

Later there are lots and lots of bomber groups which are just HQ cadre. Two planes.

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The Moose

(in reply to catwhoorg)

Post #: 19

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 4:22:05 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes.

I literally just received some groups with 1-2 planes as the allies against the AI.
(October 1941)

Wow, and I've never gotten planes in October 41! How did you do that?

It's been so long since really playing through the Allied side for me I'm not sure how often groups arrive unfilled, but most Allied players have mentioned that the groups usually do come complete and from what I can remember that seems right. That was the entire reason for starting this process.

If there is more variability in this then I guess this list is not as useful as I'd hoped.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 20

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 4:22:51 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes.

I literally just received some groups with 1-2 planes as the allies against the AI.
(October 1941)

Later there are lots and lots of bomber groups which are just HQ cadre. Two planes.

Since this is only fighters though, is that also true of fighter groups?

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 21

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 4:29:51 PM

fcharton

Posts: 1112
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: France
Status: offline

Hi Erik

There's a glitch in your 1945 figures, you reported the reinforcements for 44 (893) instead of those for 45 (1676), the total is correct, though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes.

I'd like to get the details more or less correct, but now also get up some estimates for the Japanese side, which will come in the next day.

I think you have the figures in Tracker plane production tab: under the TBO.YTA column, you two figures : the total number of planes, and the number you need to build, the difference is the number of planes that arrive as reinforcements throughout the game. For instance, in scen 2, the british avenger II are 0 (12), which mean the twelve of them arrive as reinforcements.

In my opinion, there is no need to take withdrawing squadrons into account. The point of this analysis is to show what kind of losses the Allies can sustain before having to cut operations down. If you reach that level, as the allies, your squadrons will withdraw empty anyway.

Francois

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 22

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 4:30:34 PM

catwhoorg

Posts: 686
Joined: 9/27/2012
From: Uk expat lving near Atlanta
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes.

I literally just received some groups with 1-2 planes as the allies against the AI.
(October 1941)

Wow, and I've never gotten planes in October 41! How did you do that?

It's been so long since really playing through the Allied side for me I'm not sure how often groups arrive unfilled, but most Allied players have mentioned that the groups usually do come complete and from what I can remember that seems right. That was the entire reason for starting this process.

If there is more variability in this then I guess this list is not as useful as I'd hoped.

1942 ... stupid fat fingers.

I'd have to check if they were all bombers, or some fighter groups.

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 23

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 4:42:04 PM

Walloc

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes.

I literally just received some groups with 1-2 planes as the allies against the AI.
(October 1941)

Later there are lots and lots of bomber groups which are just HQ cadre. Two planes.

Since this is only fighters though, is that also true of fighter groups?

Just did a fast check at the USAAF F unit arriving in '42. Only 5 arrived with the full 25. Actually one had 32. Others vary much. 23, 18/17, 12, 6 , 2 being the most common numbers that the different groups arrives with. If u want it accurate then i fear u hafta go through them individually.

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 7/3/2013 4:43:40 PM >

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 24

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 4:42:47 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

Hi Erik

There's a glitch in your 1945 figures, you reported the reinforcements for 44 (893) instead of those for 45 (1676), the total is correct, though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes.

I'd like to get the details more or less correct, but now also get up some estimates for the Japanese side, which will come in the next day.

I think you have the figures in Tracker plane production tab: under the TBO.YTA column, you two figures : the total number of planes, and the number you need to build, the difference is the number of planes that arrive as reinforcements throughout the game. For instance, in scen 2, the british avenger II are 0 (12), which mean the twelve of them arrive as reinforcements.

In my opinion, there is no need to take withdrawing squadrons into account. The point of this analysis is to show what kind of losses the Allies can sustain before having to cut operations down. If you reach that level, as the allies, your squadrons will withdraw empty anyway.

Francois

Thanks. I'll correct that. The first was without the Soviets I think and I didn't change the top number.

Yeah, all of this has been done without tracker so far as I just wanted to dig through the groups first and do it manually. Kind of let me get a feel for it. I also have more trouble 'seeing' the details in tracker, simply due to the visuals. I don't do as well with things that look like spreadsheets.

I'll check it out though as I continue.

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Post #: 25

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 4:45:08 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes.

I literally just received some groups with 1-2 planes as the allies against the AI.
(October 1941)

Later there are lots and lots of bomber groups which are just HQ cadre. Two planes.

Since this is only fighters though, is that also true of fighter groups?

Just did a fast check at the USAAF F unit arriving in '42. Only 5 arrived with the full 25. Actually one had 32. Others vary much. 23, 18/17, 12, 6 , 2 being the most common numbers that the different groups arrives with. If u want it accurate then i fear u hafta go through them individually.

Rasmus

Insteresting.

I wonder if there is variability in these numbers or if they always come the same, for instance if one P-40E unit always arrives with 12 out of 25?

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Post #: 26

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 4:50:53 PM

janh

Posts: 1216
Joined: 6/12/2007
Status: offline

Nice work, obvert! One kind of knows that there is a lot in the queue all the time, but seeing these totals black on blue still gives a different feel to it. And this is only the F part, the bombers are surely just as impressive.

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 27

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 6:21:17 PM

Cap Mandrake

Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline

Many Allied fighter squadrons in 43 arrive without a full complement. A good example are teh FM-1 equipped squadrons which arrive even before "production" starts.

I had always assumed that arriving understrength squadrons had something to do with depleted pools....but quite possibly I made this up.

(in reply to janh)

Post #: 28

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 9:48:13 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

I took a quick look in the editor and it does seem there are some that don't arrive as full. I won't be able to edit to each partially full unit, but I'll have a look later at tracker and the Editor again and see if it's possible to approximate the numbers better.

In the meantime I'll be working toward an 'average' Japanese production schedule.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)

Post #: 29

RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 10:45:09 PM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Walloc (Rasmus) pointed out that I've not included the upgrade to the P-38 line factory for the next model. If the Allied players can confirm this is how it works then I'll adjust those numbers.

Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes.

I'd like to get the details more or less correct, but now also get up some estimates for the Japanese side, which will come in the next day.

quote:

PRODUCTION - JAN 43 through DEC 43

FIGHTERS

USAAF
P-38G
20/month x 5 months = 100

P-38H
20/month x 6 months = 120

P-38J
10/month x 1 month = 10

As its 3 seperate factories in LA they will upgrade and continue to produce. U set it up as replacements(stopping at X date), not production aka once the G stops u dont add the 20 G model that will upgrade to the H model and keep producing and so on.

So IMO it should look like this, not counting in that factories doesnt necesarrily upgrade on day one. So while overall numbers are right the individual numbers of each model can vary depending on day of upgrades in each different game.

P-38G
20/month x 5 months = 100

P-38H
40/month x 6 months = 240

P-38J
50/month x 1 month = 50

Kind regards,

Rasmus

This is missing P-38L production which would be 80 planes/month beginning with 44/06 until wars� end.

P-38J production is 50 planes/month beginning with 43/12 for 6 months, thats 300, not 50.

Then theres P51B production beginning 44/03 @ 30/month, after that P51D beginning 44/11 @ 120/month (the upgrading B plus the 90 D R&D), after that the P51H beginning 45/09 @ 250/month (the upgrading D plus the 130 H R&D).

Great effort obvert, but the xls linked by Skyros practically covers everything already.

Edit: Should there still be doubt: Yes, the factories upgrade to the most recent model at production start date immediately and completely. So for example all 50 P-38J change to L version on 44/06, adding to the 30 R&D, resulting in a total per month production of 80 beginning 44/06.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 7/3/2013 10:54:15 PM >

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