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Mortar fire against adjacent hexes

 
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Mortar fire against adjacent hexes - 2/23/2001 1:49:00 AM   
Lorenzo


Posts: 26
Joined: 6/13/2000
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Hi, I already raised the issue of mortars firing 'direct' or 'indirect', and all my questions were kindly answered. However, am I wrong or it is possible for mortars to fire against adjacent hexes in SP:WAW 4.5? I seem to remember a scenario where I actually did so. If my memory does not fail me, that's a thing that should be corrected in version 5.0, at least for all mortars not being able of real direct fire, that is, not provided with a trigger. Just my 2 cents... :-) Lorenzo

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- 2/23/2001 4:49:00 AM   
BlitzSS

 

Posts: 253
Joined: 10/24/2000
From: wasChicagoLand, now DC
Status: offline 		It's a minimum range thing that has ever really been addressed in SP??. Rifle grenades(triggered fired)are indirect but their range should be small enough to lob one within 50m. As for mortars, there is a big differince between a 2" and a 120mm. This will depend on the decision of how small class mortars are to be handled. It is probably very simplistic to restrict adjacent hexes. This might be somewhat accurate for an 81mm while a 120mm might need a larger min. range. This is a good question. I'm curious on how it might get handled.

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Post #: 2
- 2/23/2001 5:11:00 AM   
skukko


Posts: 1928
Joined: 10/24/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Shall you count on this minimum range Japanese infantrys knee mortars also? Or 2inch mortars carried by some Btitish infantry squads? If one hex is 50 to 75 meters, how can you say denie mortar to shoot at the adjacent hexes? I've been shooting 120mm mortar to fifty meters...Riflegranade issue is something to be conserned. mosh

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Post #: 3
- 2/23/2001 6:57:00 AM   
Grumble

 

Posts: 471
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Omaha, NE, USA
Status: offline 		Rather than min range, my concern about mortars is their accuracy vs point-targets (vehicles). Maybe it's just my frustration, but I've seen repeatedly mortars op-firing on vehicles (open-top/unarmored) and scoring. WW2 mortars were fairly inaccurate weapons, primarily used for area suppressive fire. I'm finding it hard to believe they can score a direct hit a small MOVING armored target somewhere inside a 50m circle consistently. Soft vehicles no problem, the fragmentation alone could cause damage...

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Post #: 4
- 2/23/2001 7:47:00 AM   
USMCGrunt

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 1/17/2001
From: Yarmouth, ME, US
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Grumble: Rather than min range, my concern about mortars is their accuracy vs point-targets (vehicles). Maybe it's just my frustration, but I've seen repeatedly mortars op-firing on vehicles (open-top/unarmored) and scoring. WW2 mortars were fairly inaccurate weapons, primarily used for area suppressive fire. I'm finding it hard to believe they can score a direct hit a small MOVING armored target somewhere inside a 50m circle consistently. Soft vehicles no problem, the fragmentation alone could cause damage...
Grumble, I will agree that it would be very difficult for mortars to strike a moving vehicle target, I'm not sure how much of an issue it actually is. I've played many scenarios and used mortars in this role (Balkk's Finest Hour comes to mind played from the Russian side) and I can safely say that after approximately 100 rounds fired in these scenarios, I've had 3 actual hits on a vehicle. I don't think a 3% on target accuracy in a 50m box is out of the bounds of reality. I think there are historical precendents set that prove that mortars can be more accurate than that. I've heard veterans of Viet Nam recount tales of just how accurate the NVA and VC were with mortars, and it was remarked on several occasions that moving vehicles were struck and destroyed on a regular basis. While serving in the Marine Corps in 91, I witnessed a live fire event with 81mm mortars where the location of a foxhole was precisely determined with a Magellan GPS receiver and 4 out of 10 rounds from 1 tube landed in the hole. The other 6 were within 8 meters of the hole. Just something to think about. ------------------ USMCGrunt -When it absolutely, positively, has to be destroyed overnight.

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Post #: 5
- 2/23/2001 11:13:00 PM   
Grumble

 

Posts: 471
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Omaha, NE, USA
Status: offline 		True, but we're talking WW2 here, not some 30 years later. WW2 mortars were not much different than their WW1 counterparts, and due to their inherent inaccuracy were employed as area weapons. Don't want to flog this dead equine, but it happened again last night, five "shots" (who knows how many actual rounds) moving armored target two hits one kill.

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"...these go up to eleven."
Nigel Tufnel

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Post #: 6
- 2/24/2001 12:43:00 AM   
Charles22

 

Posts: 912
Joined: 5/17/2000
From: Dallas, Texas, USA
Status: offline 		Grumble: I have to agree with you. I think it's a bit absurd that I can send two or three PZIBs, PZIICs, or 251HTs into the enemy rear and encounter mortars who pose more a threat than the flank team. It makes you wonder why you just didn't send a team of mortars to the enemy rear, at least you would've been even-steven (or better yet mortar-based HTs).

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- 2/24/2001 8:44:00 AM   
Elvis

 

Posts: 86
Joined: 6/20/2000
From: Clarion, PA
Status: offline 		Couple of comments... mortar minimum ranges* 60mm M720/M889 (HE) - 70 meters 81mm M252 (HE) - 80 meters 120mm M57 (HE) - 200 meters * charge 0 Note that while these are representative of "modern" US mortars (M224, M252, and M120, respectively), it should be noted that these tubes (minus the 120mm) are direct descendants of the WW2-era M2/M19 (60mm) and M1 (81mm) mortars. Before another "yes, but that was 60 years ago" comment comes up, realize that there aren't that many differences between the tubes used then and now; the big ones are weight (better alloys), range (improved propellants), and lethality (improved projectiles and fuses). These differences aside, your standard infantry mortar isn't far removed from its WW2 counterpart. In game terms: calibers up to 60mm - minimum range 1 hex 81mm (and equivalent) - 2 hexes 120mm and up - 4 hexes mortars vs. vehicles A mortar, especially one engaging a target that the crew can see, would have one advantage in engaging a moving target - rate of fire. Both the 60mm and 81mm tubes have a maximum rate of fire of 30-35rpm (18rpm sustained). In short, a fresh, well-trained crew can put a *lot* of rounds onto a target in a short amount of time. Direct hits? perhaps, perhaps not, but the chance of one occuring would be significantly greater. ------------------ People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. -- George Orwell [This message has been edited by Elvis (edited February 23, 2001).]

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Post #: 8
- 2/24/2001 2:24:00 PM   
Stuart Millis

 

Posts: 217
Joined: 2/18/2001
From: British Columbia, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Grumble: Don't want to flog this dead equine, but it happened again last night, five "shots" (who knows how many actual rounds) moving armored target two hits one kill.
What kind of mortar are you using? Is this a mortar from mortar section or from a weapons team? Was this a Light Mortar, a mortar or a heavy mortar. Was this in direct fire? What Nation? What year? Stuart

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