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Strategic Space Exploration / Empire Building Games - 8/22/2013 10:35:51 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline 		Have always enjoyed the big picture games and high tech graphics were never really important. I bought DW'a some time ago, but have struggled with the video game/cartoon like graphics of the ships which are (intentionally) badly out of scale. Is there some mod to dumb these down to something else ..... ?

Also, does anyone have alternate game suggestions of this gender ?
Post #: 1
RE: Strategic Space Exploration / Empire Building Games - 8/22/2013 10:49:03 PM   
Trev_lite

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 7/12/2013
Status: offline 		i would like a mod that made systems 1000 times smaller and things to scale.
note:
i'm ok if planet size, stellar distances and ship size had different scale.

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 2
RE: Strategic Space Exploration / Empire Building Games - 8/23/2013 1:16:53 PM   
Anthropoid


Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline 		I think if the ships were "to scale" they'd be invisible. I agree the graphics are not the greatest. But overall they are _good_. They are effective. They are functional and to me, whatever shortcomings they suffer does not detract from the game.

Sorry to hear that it seems to be a bummer for you. I can sympathize because, when DW first came out, I found it to be virtually unplayable as a result of how the small fonts and UI text were rendered in tiny-tiny pixels on my "monitor" (42" plasma screen TV).

I'm guessing however, that the sort of graphics 'soup up' that would fix your problem would probably involve "Distant Worlds Part Deux: Re-Return of the Shakturi"

@Trev-lite: I also agree that a graphical interface that was even -more- accurate in terms of scale would be swell. However, a couple points that make me a bit 'meh' on this. First of all, DW is just about the best galactic + solar system scale I have seen in _any_ space game. EVE Online certainly has pretty graphics, and their scaling is okay. But at the end of the day, you don't get the kind of clear hierarchical relationships between planets-moons-stars-galactic structures in EVE in a zoomable interface.

I reckon there are some inherent limitations to how far one could go with shifting the scaling in the game to be more accurate for the simple reason that, it would like make the game much more of a memory hog.

So, again, I fear that this is eomething that is maybe for DW 2.

< Message edited by Anthropoid -- 8/23/2013 1:20:54 PM >

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

(in reply to Trev_lite)
Post #: 3
RE: Strategic Space Exploration / Empire Building Games - 8/23/2013 5:01:33 PM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid




Total agree with all your comments and disagree with the other two posters. I've been around a long time and have seen the evolution of games from the very simply 8 bit game graphics cira 1980 to the stunning graphics of single person shoot-em-ups of today. This type of game does not need that sophistication for it's graphics. Seen it attempted before on remakes and although the graphics look good playability is lost.

As far as scaling goes, have they ever heard of perspective?

(in reply to Anthropoid)
Post #: 4
RE: Strategic Space Exploration / Empire Building Games - 8/23/2013 9:44:46 PM   
Anthropoid


Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline 		What do you mean by "perspective" Chris?

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 5
RE: Strategic Space Exploration / Empire Building Games - 8/24/2013 9:18:05 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

What do you mean by "perspective" Chris?


Objects that are closer to you appear bigger and as you are viewing ships against the back ground of a planet this is the affect the artists have generated in game. Having said that the persepective effect generated by the artist is excessive but that is artistic licence. In any case if you made the ships smaller selecting them would be a nightmare.

(in reply to Anthropoid)
Post #: 6
RE: Strategic Space Exploration / Empire Building Games - 8/24/2013 11:23:11 AM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H
Objects that are closer to you appear bigger and as you are viewing ships against the back ground of a planet this is the affect the artists have generated in game. Having said that the persepective effect generated by the artist is excessive but that is artistic licence. In any case if you made the ships smaller selecting them would be a nightmare.

If you want realistic sizes...

Diameter of the earth: 7927 miles
Distance from the sun: 93,000,000 miles
Diameter of the solar system: 24,000,000,000,000 miles

Unless you have a monitor about 12k pixels wide, you wouldn't be able to see the the Earth and the Sun on the same screen. Not to mention that the Earth would be a single pixel. Now, to fit the solar system on your monitor with the Earth a single pixel, you'd require a horizontal display width of about 3 billion pixels.

I think it's understandable that Elliot and Erik have applied artistic license in the display of planets and ships.

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 7
RE: Strategic Space Exploration / Empire Building Games - 8/24/2013 11:27:15 AM   
Lucian

 

Posts: 279
Joined: 12/1/2012
Status: offline
quote:

I think it's understandable that Elliot and Erik have applied artistic license in the display of planets and ships.


Yes, there has to be some suspension of disbelief in any game - particularly space games - or it would be unplayable. Total realism is neither required or desirable.

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 8
RE: Strategic Space Exploration / Empire Building Games - 8/24/2013 11:30:28 AM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian
Yes, there has to be some suspension of disbelief in any game - particularly space games - or it would be unplayable. Total realism is neither required or desirable.

If he's willing to spring for a graphics card and monitor capable of displaying that resolution, I would be happy to work on a mod to his specifications.

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to Lucian)
Post #: 9
RE: Strategic Space Exploration / Empire Building Games - 8/25/2013 12:12:18 AM   
Trev_lite

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 7/12/2013
Status: offline
quote:


If you want realistic sizes...

Diameter of the earth: 7927 miles
Distance from the sun: 93,000,000 miles
Diameter of the solar system: 24,000,000,000,000 miles



my idea was that planets and distances would be to scale but have different scales.
planets would be to scale with other planets, orbits would be to scale with other orbits but planets would still be visible from solar system view.
the inner and outer solar system might need different zoom levels though.

the zoom could handle the vast differences in stellar and interstellar distances.

i'm ok with ships looking the same size as planets but having a galaxy packed like a globular cluster just seem so wrong.

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 10
RE: Strategic Space Exploration / Empire Building Games - 8/25/2013 12:36:36 AM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Trev_lite
my idea was that planets and distances would be to scale but have different scales.
planets would be to scale with other planets, orbits would be to scale with other orbits but planets would still be visible from solar system view.
the inner and outer solar system might need different zoom levels though.

I don't understand. That's what you have - a different scale.

If what you're asking for is relative sizes of planets displayed on the UI - you will need to note that if Earth is one unit wide, Jupiter would be 10 wide. And the Sun about 100 units wide. Putting this into a workable UI would be problematic at best. I don't think it's feasible to do it on today's computers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trev_lite
the zoom could handle the vast differences in stellar and interstellar distances.

You do realize how mind-bogglingly enormous interstellar distances are, don't you?
http://youtu.be/S23cId7AskM

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trev_lite
i'm ok with ships looking the same size as planets but having a galaxy packed like a globular cluster just seem so wrong.

Again, we're dealing with numbers which boggle the mind. There are about 300,000,000,000 stars in our galaxy. Putting that many stars into DW would rather significantly increase the game's system requirements. I don't think an accurate representation of our galaxy is possible.

But let's say you only want the size of the galaxy represented accurately. The solar system is about 0.5 to 4AU across (depending on how you measure it). The galaxy is something like 100-120,000AU across. Putting that sort of scale into a game would be insanely difficult from the UI design perspective.


< Message edited by Kayoz -- 8/25/2013 12:56:11 AM >

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to Trev_lite)
Post #: 11
RE: Strategic Space Exploration / Empire Building Games - 8/25/2013 4:35:28 AM   
Darkspire


Posts: 1986
Joined: 6/12/2003
From: My Own Private Hell
Status: offline
quote:

You do realize how mind-bogglingly enormous interstellar distances are, don't you?


This one still makes me feel like a tiny person

Star Size Comparison HD

Darkspire

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(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 12
RE: Strategic Space Exploration / Empire Building Games - 8/25/2013 4:55:36 AM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkspire
Star Size Comparison HD

I love the "Earth (you are here)"!

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to Darkspire)
Post #: 13
RE: Strategic Space Exploration / Empire Building Games - 8/25/2013 5:33:39 AM   
Lucian

 

Posts: 279
Joined: 12/1/2012
Status: offline 		He he. Nice link Darkspire, it perfectly illustrates the reason that realistic distances and proportions wouldn't work in a 4x space game. Well done!

(in reply to Darkspire)
Post #: 14
RE: Strategic Space Exploration / Empire Building Games - 8/25/2013 9:03:22 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H
Objects that are closer to you appear bigger and as you are viewing ships against the back ground of a planet this is the affect the artists have generated in game. Having said that the persepective effect generated by the artist is excessive but that is artistic licence. In any case if you made the ships smaller selecting them would be a nightmare.

If you want realistic sizes...

Diameter of the earth: 7927 miles
Distance from the sun: 93,000,000 miles
Diameter of the solar system: 24,000,000,000,000 miles

Unless you have a monitor about 12k pixels wide, you wouldn't be able to see the the Earth and the Sun on the same screen. Not to mention that the Earth would be a single pixel. Now, to fit the solar system on your monitor with the Earth a single pixel, you'd require a horizontal display width of about 3 billion pixels.

I think it's understandable that Elliot and Erik have applied artistic license in the display of planets and ships.


I do not disagree with anything you have said.

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 15
RE: Strategic Space Exploration / Empire Building Games - 8/25/2013 3:10:51 PM   
mSterian

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 7/25/2013
Status: offline 		You know.. that's what zooming is for. If one of the planets gets too small at your zoom level, replace it with an icon. And if you zoom in enough, you start to see it.

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 16
RE: Strategic Space Exploration / Empire Building Games - 8/25/2013 5:33:40 PM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mSterian

You know.. that's what zooming is for. If one of the planets gets too small at your zoom level, replace it with an icon. And if you zoom in enough, you start to see it.


Is directed at me? If so I suggest you re-read my post. On this subject I have never complained, moaned or otherwise besmirched the game. What I attempted to do was explain to someone else why the graphics look like they did.

< Message edited by Chris H -- 8/25/2013 5:38:55 PM >

(in reply to mSterian)
Post #: 17
RE: Strategic Space Exploration / Empire Building Games - 8/25/2013 7:31:49 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		Just to put in my $.02 here. If everything was done to scale, in order for the ships to be big enough to see and select, they'd need to be the same as they are now, and the planets would literally not be able to fit on the screen at maximum zoom.

You really have to think of the DW graphics in the sense of a military strategy map. Where the things that represent the ships, planets, etc are not to scale on the flat map table. Basically think of yourself as the Emperor sitting in his war room as his aides move little models of ships to points on a big map table of the galaxy, instead of taking the literally sense of seeing it from a point in space.

_____________________________

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'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 18
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