Lame production/research modeling

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Lame production/research modeling - 1/15/2003 10:28:44 PM

EricLarsen

Posts: 458
Joined: 7/9/2002
From: Salinas, CA Raider Nation
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The more I play the game the less I like the lame production/research all-or-nothing modeling design decision. That is so unrealistic and it's a waste of having the population divvied up into specialzed worker groups.:(

It's very unrealistic to assume that all of a world's population is going to drop what they're doing and go work on one specific project. The scientists aren't going to drop their micrometers to go man the production line, and the engineers aren't going to abandon the production line to go pick up micrometers just because the world only revolves around one item of interest at a time. After giving us four nice distinct worker castes they ruin any distinction with the all-or-nothing approach to economic modeling.

The way it should work is each group of workers does it's own unique thing. Engineers produce, scientists research, security keeps things secure, and the navy protects the planet. Each group should be able to do it's own distinct thing at the same time. Only scientists should be allowed to research and they should be able to research even if the engineers are producing something at the same time. Security always gets to do security no matter what the world is doing at the time, and the navy protects regardless of what the world is doing at the time, so why not allow scientists and engimeers to do their own thing regardless of what the world is doing?:confused:

I think a truly great opportunity was missed here to make the game more realistic and challenging by allowing worlds to not multitask (geez I mean isn't that the big busines thing now - multitasking?). It would really give the proper meaning to having distinct worker groups with different functions and would allow for easier production and research early on in the game when you're stuck in the atomic age with one world only. I sure hope this can be corrected to make the game better.;)
Eric Larsen

Post #: 1

- 1/15/2003 10:57:39 PM

dragoniv

Posts: 60
Joined: 1/10/2003
From: Albany, NY
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[I]It's very unrealistic to assume that all of a world's population is going to drop what they're doing and go work on one specific project.[/I] [B]Eric Larsen[/B]

Sure, it's unrealistic. However, if they could work on many different things, you wouldn't be making the strategic choice as to what is important to do NOW, as opposed to later. I actually like this model. MOO2 always had you guessing as to what tech would show up next, the best you could do was "guide" it. In this model, if I need fusion torpedos for an upcoming attack on the Frashkins, then by George that's what I'm going to make every engineer, scientist, marine and Pinkerton agent do for the next six months!

And if it turns out I should have been researching Plasma Screens, I pay the price for it. That's the essence of a great strategy game! IMHO, of course. ;)

(in reply to EricLarsen)

Post #: 2

No change in choice - 1/15/2003 11:09:41 PM

EricLarsen

Posts: 458
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From: Salinas, CA Raider Nation
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dragoniv,
I wasn't talking about choice of research, I'm talking about a lame economic model. Having a world only do one thing is just unrealistic. Is planet Earth only doing one thing right now? Ofcourse not, we're building, and researching, and securing, and patrolling all at the same time. A world should be able to multitask just the way we do here on good old spaceship earth and the game is poor at modeling this. I want my scientists researching, my engineers producing, my security securing, and my navy patrolling al at the same time. I don't want my scientists producing because they're not good at it. It just totally ruins the worker caste distinctions and gives us an unrealistic economic model to contend with rather than to work with.:( Even if Andrew fixes the economic model to allow for world multitasking that still won't change your challenge of choice as to what to research.
Eric Larsen

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Post #: 3

- 1/15/2003 11:19:25 PM

dragoniv

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From: Albany, NY
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True--in some ways, it's happening already. Security and Navy personnel still do their jobs, even if they're supposedly building or researching stuff.

Regarding engineers vs scientists, I still think this is more a strategy element--do you choose to research or produce? You do have some good points, however--in MOO you obviously had some kick butt planets for production that NEVER did research, and vice-versa for research planets. This game doesn't have that feature--oh well. It just means you have to change your play style a bit.

I dunno--being out in space toying with singularity torpedos kind of makes me ignore economic realities. This game's economic engine isn't realistic, but it does seem to work in the game. Of course, I've only played through about 6-7 games in the past week, so maybe I haven't had enough time to get too dissatisfied with the model.

Still, it's an interesting point to make--what does everyone else think?

(in reply to EricLarsen)

Post #: 4

- 1/16/2003 2:25:08 AM

Anxiety

Posts: 15
Joined: 1/2/2003
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Hm.... I've thought about this eco model as well and agree it isn't realistic. And, when I first played the game, for a moment I thought it would detract from the experience. But, I have overlooked it now. As much as I don't think it is realistic, I am rooting so much for this game and it's fun factor that I have accepted it as a constraint I have to consider during my game's development. It just hasn't bothered me at all since then.

But, I am not that forgiving in other games. I just recently purchased a city simulation (ahem... title shall remain anonymous) and find that the city-to-city interaction model is completely different forcing me to interact with token cities I create, versus AI cities. Ok, well that's how the game now works, but I just can't get by it right now. Though some might call this more fun, I don't see it as such.

Admittingly, though, I haven't gotten into every crevice of SU yet, so this is a detail I can overlook right now. I don't do much with crews and I don't tend to want to get too involved on battles (let AI handle most). Mainly it's because I'm concerned once I get to that level, I will never find the AI hard to beat... But that's my bag of chisels to carry...

-Anxiety

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Post #: 5

I'm rooting for SUDG too! - 1/16/2003 10:37:33 PM

EricLarsen

Posts: 458
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From: Salinas, CA Raider Nation
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I really like the SUDG game because it's not so tedious. I like the fact that over 700 years into the game I've only got 9 worlds and 15 ships to keep track of. Since I'm in the singularity age my ships get to and fro very quickly and in just keeping the pirates down I'm always busy watching battles, well watching my ships launch advanced sinularity standoffs and watching the pirates go boom.;)

The only real drag with the all-or-nothing production/research model comes early in the game when you only have one world. I agree it gives us some strategic choice of produce or research, but we shouldn't have to be making that choice. It should be whether or not we want to build something and what do we research. There will be times when you can't afford to build something so it doesn't detract too much then. But when you're hot and heavy into research to keep up with or ahead of the alien Jonses and you need to build another starship quick then you get stuck in an unrealistic choice of produce or research. It does act as a driver for colonization though. It almost forces a player to be fruitful and multiply.

I still would rather have a more realistic economic model where worlds produce and research at the same time using the specialty personnel for the right job and not everyone drop what you're doing because we're going to build a ship or research some nasty weapon.:(
Eric Larsen

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Post #: 6

- 1/17/2003 2:18:09 AM

Digital Age

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I dunno. It is really frustrating to have something 6 months from being researched put on hold due to some stupid freighter being built but I can rationalize it a bit. Consider:

Starships (of any kind or size) are quite ambitious undertakings, requiring not just a lot of people to build them but a significant portion of the budget and resources. Research doesn't really stop when something is being built but gets the short shrift in the annual budget, they can't get the spare parts needed to fix failed experiements, all this years crop of bright young grads are fighting for slots in the crew roster, etc. Once the thing is built the money taps reopen and things resume.

I've actually seen something like this effect in the latter stages of the game when the "Estimated Time" doesn't freeze but rather jumps up to some ridiculous value like "658 months". I'm not quite certain why this happens (advanced research artifacts? Research Centers? Lots of wisdom?), but if something similar was used even in the early games instead of "on hold" it would make a more palatable story.

D.

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Post #: 7

I've seen this too - 1/17/2003 10:12:25 PM

EricLarsen

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From: Salinas, CA Raider Nation
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Originally posted by Digital Age
[B]I've actually seen something like this effect in the latter stages of the game when the "Estimated Time" doesn't freeze but rather jumps up to some ridiculous value like "658 months". I'm not quite certain why this happens (advanced research artifacts? Research Centers? Lots of wisdom?), but if something similar was used even in the early games instead of "on hold" it would make a more palatable story.

D. [/B]

Digital Age,
I've seen this too. I was in the singularity age and when I went to research type-3 spacedock I got a research time of over 250 months! When I researched the type-4 spacedock the research time was back to a reasonable 110 months or so. Not much really changed as I wasn't really producing much and had 9 worlds to spread it around on. I hadn't switched more population to scientists or built more research centers and it was perplexing.
Eric Larsen

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Post #: 8

- 1/21/2003 1:12:37 PM

startrekdork

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Joined: 11/2/2002
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the reason it happened was because on of your worlds was building something, probably a freighter route and you didn't realize it, and by not having one world help research it throws everything else off. you notice something like that more when you're just using two planets and one goes to build something and the other is faced with all the brunt of the research.

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Post #: 9