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Formation Editor - 9/28/2013 11:34:11 PM

HercMighty

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Any chance this will be altered in the future? Miss the one from Harpoon....

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RE: Formation Editor - 9/28/2013 11:35:49 PM

mikmykWS

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What do you miss about it?

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RE: Formation Editor - 9/28/2013 11:40:15 PM

thewood1

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Please at a minimum, give us the option if using the current one.

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RE: Formation Editor - 9/28/2013 11:54:05 PM

HercMighty

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Only played Command a little so far, but the current formation editor seems very abstracted in a game that is detail orientated. The old editor gave to me much more control over operations, the zones those operations were performed in and gave more of a sense of being a commander.

Maybe it's just something to get more used to but so far the only thing I am missing...

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RE: Formation Editor - 9/29/2013 12:03:59 AM

thewood1

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If you use the reference point system to manage formations, it gives a lot more flexibility. Especially air ASW patrols, where you need some more detail over Harpoon.

It is still not perfect, but once you get the hang of it, you realize why they did this way.

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RE: Formation Editor - 9/29/2013 12:05:11 AM

Primarchx

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Like a lot of things in Command (as well as Transformers), there's more than meets the eye.

Using both the Formation Editor and the Fixed/Rotating RPs (+Missions) you can make very complex groups composed of units each doing their own thing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HercMighty

Only played Command a little so far, but the current formation editor seems very abstracted in a game that is detail orientated. The old editor gave to me much more control over operations, the zones those operations were performed in and gave more of a sense of being a commander.

Maybe it's just something to get more used to but so far the only thing I am missing...

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RE: Formation Editor - 9/29/2013 12:10:45 AM

mikmykWS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HercMighty

Only played Command a little so far, but the current formation editor seems very abstracted in a game that is detail orientated. The old editor gave to me much more control over operations, the zones those operations were performed in and gave more of a sense of being a commander.

Maybe it's just something to get more used to but so far the only thing I am missing...

Okay right not the formation editor only does station keeping for ships. You do all other patrols in the mission editor but what we've added is the ability to anchor reference points to ships so the patrols move along with the group in front or an a particular axis you choose. This is much more functional than the original as the patrol missions behaviors are much better.

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RE: Formation Editor - 9/29/2013 1:42:58 AM

NefariousKoel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

Like a lot of things in Command (as well as Transformers), there's more than meets the eye.

Using both the Formation Editor and the Fixed/Rotating RPs (+Missions) you can make very complex groups composed of units each doing their own thing.

I've become used to using the attached RPs for setting up formation patrols, and they're fine.

It's nice being able to adjust the edges as you need, although you still may have to click the patrolling unit(s) assigned to that box and press F3 twice so that their auto-assigned course recalculates after you adjust the zone.

The big issue with having these external patrol zones is all the extra RPs you have on the map. It can get really cluttered and confusing, especially when you have non-attached RPs intermingled. Such Formation-attached reference points need an on/off toggle so we can separate them from regular RPs in such overlapping cases. Otherwise, I end up dragging the wrong RP at times and inadvertently changing a different patrol zone than I intended.

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RE: Formation Editor - 9/29/2013 1:53:57 AM

thewood1

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While the RP carry over from Harpoon seemed an easy decision, with Command depending on them so much, the management of the RPs needs some work. As posted, the sheer number of them and difficulty in selecting/deselecting/renaming can turn some parts of formation and mission management into real work.

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RE: Formation Editor - 9/29/2013 1:56:32 AM

thewood1

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Maybe a solution is to assign groups of RPs to hotkeys on the fly. The hot key toggles them visible/invisible.

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RE: Formation Editor - 9/29/2013 2:57:43 AM

mikmykWS

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You'll likely see a deselect all option in the first patch.

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RE: Formation Editor - 9/29/2013 7:37:45 AM

Dimitris

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1
While the RP carry over from Harpoon seemed an easy decision, with Command depending on them so much, the management of the RPs needs some work. As posted, the sheer number of them and difficulty in selecting/deselecting/renaming can turn some parts of formation and mission management into real work.

"De-select all RPs" has been added to the v1.01 stream. Just a little patience

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RE: Formation Editor - 9/29/2013 9:36:59 PM

Rekm41

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How do you set rp's for aircraft ?

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RE: Formation Editor - 9/29/2013 10:03:17 PM

mikmykWS

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Drop 4 reference points to define the area you'd like to patrol. I suggest using the cntrl right click define area function to do this.
Make sure all other reference points are deselected except the one's you'd like to anchor to a unit.
Go to mission and reference point drop down and select on of the two make selected reference points relative too options and select the unit and group you'd like to anchor them too (so they move along with the group).
Create the mission you'd like the aircraft to fly in the mission editor.

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RE: Formation Editor - 9/29/2013 10:13:54 PM

Rekm41

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Thanks will try that. Saw in tutorial video and wanted to set up manual patrols.

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RE: Formation Editor - 9/30/2013 12:38:07 AM

eaube

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I have been playing around a fair bit in the Advanced ASW Exercise scenario to get a feel for the 'formationless' formations, and I'll admit it has left me a bit confused. Any ship I assign to an ASW patrol mission spends the entirety of the scenario moving at 12 knots. If the reference points are tracking a ship going 15 knots, they simply lag far behind the formation and never 'keep up', which makes for a fairly poor screen as you can imagine. Shouldn't a ship on an ASW patrol mission alternate between moving at full to get to it's self plotted destination in a reasonable timeframe, then drift for a bit to listen, go back to full to 'keep up' again, and so on, rather than just moving at a constant 12 speed?

If I may tack on an additional non-formation question, in the same scenario I notice that any time the Charlie I fires it's Starbrights, the Sheffield easily destroys the two that are directed at the center of the formation, but every Sea Dart fired at the remaining missiles that are flying off to the side, at lets say a 30 degree angle away from the Sheffield, every single Sea Dart passes behind the SS-N-7 and detonates since it was unable to make the intercept. I havn't tested this with any other SAM, I'm just curious if this is deliberate that the Sea Dart does not fly a lead pursuit course that would allow an intercept at even a fairly shallow angle since it is an older missile. It just strikes me as odd that a 600 knot missile is "too fast" for the Sea Dart to fly an intercept course on.

Thanks in advance for any advice/clarifications.

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RE: Formation Editor - 9/30/2013 12:53:55 AM

mikmykWS

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Okay. You set ship position in the formation editor. You then assign that ship group to a ASW Patrol mission. They should patrol in formation at a reasonable speed setting.Air units are set up separately in the mission editor using reference points that are anchored to the group as described above.

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RE: Formation Editor - 10/1/2013 7:29:42 PM

Sigma8510

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lack of Comprehension

I have been playing around a fair bit in the Advanced ASW Exercise scenario to get a feel for the 'formationless' formations, and I'll admit it has left me a bit confused. Any ship I assign to an ASW patrol mission spends the entirety of the scenario moving at 12 knots. If the reference points are tracking a ship going 15 knots, they simply lag far behind the formation and never 'keep up', which makes for a fairly poor screen as you can imagine. Shouldn't a ship on an ASW patrol mission alternate between moving at full to get to it's self plotted destination in a reasonable timeframe, then drift for a bit to listen, go back to full to 'keep up' again, and so on, rather than just moving at a constant 12 speed?

...

I may post this in the beta forum as well, but I am just getting a chance to raise this as an issue as well.

I too have seen the same behavior from ships assigned to ASW patrol missions tied to tracking reference points. In this case I am in one of the Falklands scenarios and assign a DD (after detaching) at the rear of the formation to a ASW patrol station in front of the group. After 6+ game hours, he has stayed at a constant 12knots trying to over take a 16 knot task force. Needless to say, he is further behind the group and doesn't stand a chance to get in front until they get on station. The expected behavior would have been for the DD to make best speed to station, AND THEN commence patrol (sprint/drift, etc.).

I hope this is enough information to get someone started. If there is something I am missing in my setup, please let me know.

Great game! (Can't say it enough!)

Joe

< Message edited by jbaxter1964 -- 10/1/2013 7:31:07 PM >

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RE: Formation Editor - 10/1/2013 7:39:51 PM

NefariousKoel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

You'll likely see a deselect all option in the first patch.

Any chance for a future show/hide toggle regarding 'attached' RPs too?

(along with the show/hide sonobuoy toggle)

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RE: Formation Editor - 10/1/2013 8:26:33 PM

eaube

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Okay. You set ship position in the formation editor. You then assign that ship group to a ASW Patrol mission. They should patrol in formation at a reasonable speed setting.Air units are set up separately in the mission editor using reference points that are anchored to the group as described above.

My apologies if I misinterpret this, but it sounds like you're saying that the tracking reference point setup is mostly used for an airborne ASW patrol. So I tried this two ways, going by the setting ships in formation and assigning them to an ASW Patrol mission as you suggest, both as the ASW escorts in the same formation with the HVU (in FOST: Advanced ASW Exercise, the Rover class oiler) and as separate picket formations, with the formations set to an ASW Patrol mission with no reference points set. I plot the course for the formation(s), and run into the following problem:

I can either set the formation to a manual speed representing the speed of advance I want for the group, which is perfect for the Rover, but the others in the formation simply match this speed as well, without sprint/drift behavior. If I leave it on automatic speed selection, the whole force including the HVU sprints and drifts between around 5kts to 20. This again isn't ideal, I would like the Rover to travel at it's steady 15kts cruise speed with the rest of the formation sprinting and drifting as appropriate to maintain this overall speed of advance. Similarly, if I have the pickets in a seperate force on an ASW mission, I can chose either to leave it on automatic where it will have no regard for the desired speed or will be on manual where no sprint/drift appears to occur.

Thank you for your patience. I'm enjoying the hell out of the game as-is and certainly see plenty of potential to make it even better, but I seem to be missing how to do some fairly important formation setups. Any clarifications on how to do this correctly would be appreciated.

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RE: Formation Editor - 10/2/2013 4:22:47 AM

RockKahn

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So, I gather there is no way to get any kind of precision when stationing ships in a formation? Back in the day, when we were told to take up station bearing 315 2000 yards from the flag ship, we were expected to go there. Eye-balling it was not an option.

My formations are looking a terribly lopsided. It would be nice to at least be able to place RPs at a specific ranges and bearings from the lead ship. Then I could use these RPs as stations then delete them. It would be terribly cumbersome doing it that way, but it should work.

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RE: Formation Editor - 10/2/2013 11:48:32 AM

HercMighty

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Maybe we can get a Youtube video from the developers on how the envisioned formation management would work with their design? Sorry, but the current design has me confused and I am having a hard time understanding how I can achieve similar results as I used to get in Harpoon (realize the reference to this game might get annoying but it's the only comparison I got).

Also I liked being able to have the formation editor open in one window showing detail while in the main window leaving the group view open. With Commands design this would work even better because I can take advantage of my dual monitors.

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RE: Formation Editor - 10/2/2013 1:31:20 PM

ExMachina

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quote:

Back in the day, when we were told to take up station bearing 315 2000 yards from the flag ship, we were expected to go there. Eye-balling it was not an option.

You could do:
1) Pause game
2) Ctrl-D, click flagship move line to desired bearing and distance; hit Esc and drop a reference point
3) Select edit formation, select unit you want to move and use the reference point to drop the new station

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RE: Formation Editor - 10/2/2013 1:32:47 PM

ExMachina

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quote:

Also I liked being able to have the formation editor open in one window showing detail while in the main window leaving the group view open. With Commands design this would work even better because I can take advantage of my dual monitors.

I would love the option of opening multiple, windowed views. Perhaps that could be an refinement for the future?

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RE: Formation Editor - 10/2/2013 2:31:11 PM

RockKahn

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Thanks ExMachina. It's a little awkward, but a good workaround. It gets the job done. It gets easier after I do it a few times.

I hope maybe in a future release they'll add a formation editor with more features.

When I work with formations, I end up with small red triangles on the map when I select a ship in the formation. Anyone know what they are?

Attachment (1)

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RE: Formation Editor - 10/2/2013 2:45:17 PM

Der Zeitgeist

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The red diamonds are the patrol stations, I think.

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RE: Formation Editor - 10/2/2013 3:11:09 PM

ExMachina

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quote:

Thanks ExMachina. It's a little awkward, but a good workaround. It gets the job done.

Sure.

And I haven't played H2/3 for years...can you remind me if what you asked for (xx distance and yy degrees from flagship) was even possible--with any precision--in the H2/3 formation editor? I don't remember any range/bearing indicators (just ballpark, range rings).

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RE: Formation Editor - 10/2/2013 3:14:04 PM

Dimitris

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RockKahn
Thanks ExMachina. It's a little awkward, but a good workaround. It gets the job done. It gets easier after I do it a few times.

It's not exactly a workaround, it's how it's supposed to work.

Command uses the formation editor only for positioning the group units relative to the group leader. It's a different approach than Harpoon, with its own pros and cons.

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RE: Formation Editor - 10/2/2013 3:16:10 PM

Dimitris

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExMachina

quote:

Thanks ExMachina. It's a little awkward, but a good workaround. It gets the job done.

Sure. And I haven't played H2/3 for years...can you remind me if what you asked for (xx distance and yy degrees from flagship) was even possible--with any precision--in the H2/3 formation editor? I don't remember any range/bearing indicators (just ballpark, range rings).

Command offers two mechanisms for measuring bearing & distance:
* Ctrl+D allows you to measure from an arbitrary point.
* Selecting a unit/contact and then simply moving the mouse cursor around, displays the bearing + distance from the selection on the cursor's "black box".

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RE: Formation Editor - 10/2/2013 3:30:50 PM

mjk428

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Command offers two mechanisms for measuring bearing & distance:
* Ctrl+D allows you to measure from an arbitrary point.
* Selecting a unit/contact and then simply moving the mouse cursor around, displays the bearing + distance from the selection on the cursor's "black box".

I haven't been able to use Ctrl+D from inside the formation editor when it comes time to tell units where to relocate.

The black box shows distance from the unit that I want to move rather than the distance from the center of the formation. Not sure which would be preferable overall but obviously the distance from the leader would be the way to go if you want to place a unit an exact distance away.

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