Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Warspite1, yes we have :)

And they bring nothing to back up their "facts".

To quote Ian from another thread:

1) Follow a business plan based on 13 years of running a successful company and over 20 years in the games industry.
2) Follow a business plan based on what a journalist and our fans (none of whom to my knowledge have ever made a game or run computer game publisher) suggest because we don't have the guts to follow our beliefs.

I know which option I will be choosing :)

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ORIGINAL: Alchenar

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Aurelian I think we’ve been here before…

The same old arguments just go round and round in circles. The one about “it’s a fact that if you reduce prices you get more customers” sums up the pointlessness of the thread. If life was that simple why doesn’t every company do that? Hey great, no retailer ever goes out of business!! Right…….

Matrix is a private company, no doubt with investors, shareholders (maybe the bank) all of whom they have to keep happy. They are NOT a charity. They also live in the free world and we have a free market. This means they have to balance price with consumer demand, competition, the size of the market place etc.

If they get it wrong there may be no Matrix in future, if they get it right, they will hopefully be around for some time yet. But it’s the right of the people who invest their cash and hold the risk to set the price. Our investment is limited to what we pay for games. If we don’t like it, then we shouldn't invest.

True, but even if we drop the price argument completely there's things like 'you need a demo', 'get some free advertising by getting some mainstream reviews', 'use the massive customer base that Steam opens up for you' which would not be substantial costs but which would probably be successful to some degree. But instead we just get an insistence that even that effort would be wasted.

The thing is that if a company refuses to let me demo a product and also hides their product from the industry journalists, that sets off pretty big alarm bells in my head that something is very wrong under the covers and they want to hide it until it's too late for me to back out of a purchase.

If you trust Matrix absolutely then their pricing strategy is fine. I have a demand for wargames and the supply is very limited. But if you get burned just once with a game that turns out to be far more expensive than it's entertainment value justified then it becomes very difficult to be a returning customer. And that's a problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: flanyboy
The thing is Steam gets what 30-40% of every sale or something similar to how the Apple App store works. So that's a pretty darn big loss of revenue to need to make up. Plus if they sell on steam they probably would need to lower prices which requires even bigger volumes of sales to make up for the losses there.

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ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

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ORIGINAL: flanyboy
The thing is Steam gets what 30-40% of every sale or something similar to how the Apple App store works. So that's a pretty darn big loss of revenue to need to make up. Plus if they sell on steam they probably would need to lower prices which requires even bigger volumes of sales to make up for the losses there.

That's only if you believe that wargaming is such a closed-off niche genre that you can't ever win over any new players and have to instead resort to gouging the "true believers" for as much as possible.

And that particular assertion itself isn't supported by successful non-Matrix strategy games and successful similarly-niche sub-genres.

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ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Warspite1, yes we have :)

And they bring nothing to back up their "facts".

To quote Ian from another thread:

1) Follow a business plan based on 13 years of running a successful company and over 20 years in the games industry.
2) Follow a business plan based on what a journalist and our fans (none of whom to my knowledge have ever made a game or run computer game publisher) suggest because we don't have the guts to follow our beliefs.

I know which option I will be choosing :)

It's disingenuous to assert that these pricing discussions and suggestions are coming off the backs of "random people who have never run a business before" rather than, say, Valve Corporation, which has been more successful than Matrix Games by several orders of magnitude.

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ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

Well today I learned something new.

If I'm unhappy with the political leadership in my country, I'm not allowed to comment on it unless I've run for office.

If I'm unhappy with the advertising on television, I have to keep my trap shut unless I've run a marketing company.

If I'm dissatisfied with the treatment my hospital gives, I can't pipe up unless I've gone to medical school.

Otherwise I'm just a "complainer".

Wow, who would've thunk it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

Well today I learned something new.

If I'm unhappy with the political leadership in my country, I'm not allowed to comment on it unless I've run for office.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555
If I'm unhappy with the advertising on television, I have to keep my trap shut unless I've run a marketing company.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555
If I'm dissatisfied with the treatment my hospital gives, I can't pipe up unless I've gone to medical school.

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ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

Otherwise I'm just a "complainer".

Wow, who would've thunk it?

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ORIGINAL: Aurelian

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ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Hi Guys! I'm late to the conversation telling Matrix how to run their business. What'd I miss?

Nothing.

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ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

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ORIGINAL: Aurelian

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ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Hi Guys! I'm late to the conversation telling Matrix how to run their business. What'd I miss?

Nothing.

Well, it sure fueled another two pages worth of posts in a flash. Care to summarize for those that don't wish to wade through banalities for 60+ posts?

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ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Really? Valve puts out games such as WiTP-AE, WiTE, and CMANO?.

If so, since when? If not, then why bring them up? No point in it.

These type of threads are started by people who have not run a computer game business. It doesn't matter what the price is, they will complain, as stated in a different thread.

I'll say it again. They have presented *nothing* to back their position. They have not presented anything that shows this company is on the wrong track.

Make the claim that they're losing sales, let's see the numbers.

Make the claim that they will make more money by cutting the price, let's see the numbers.

Show me what the profit margin is on an $80 game. Then show me how many more they have to sell to make the same amount.

Better yet, show the company that make a game as rich and detailed and complex as Command, for a much lower price. Oh, it must cover the same time frame too.

Some guy makes a claim that this price isn't going to bring in "new blood". Well, it isn't supposed to. That's why there are free games here. That's what there are lower complexity games for this "new blood" to dip their toe in.

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ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

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ORIGINAL: Aurelian

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ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Hi Guys! I'm late to the conversation telling Matrix how to run their business. What'd I miss?

Nothing.

Well, it sure fueled another two pages worth of posts in a flash. Care to summarize for those that don't wish to wade through banalities for 60+ posts?

quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000
In the meantime, Matrix is selling Unity of Command for 10 dollars more than Steam or Gamersgate or even directly from the developer is. What, pray tell, is the justification for this 10 dollar mark-up? Is UOC suddenly more deep and complex when bought from Matrix?

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ORIGINAL: Rtwfreak

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ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

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ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Hi Guys! I'm late to the conversation telling Matrix how to run their business. What'd I miss?

Nothing.

Well, it sure fueled another two pages worth of posts in a flash. Care to summarize for those that don't wish to wade through banalities for 60+ posts?

Basically a He said, She said, We said thread about pricing. You know these never mount to a hill of beans like all other discussions we have. This place is just a sounding board to throw away or waste our free time and sometimes give a little feedback Matrixgames and Slitherine might read or take into consideration from time to time nothing more though. Just a time waster like all other forums on the net.

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ORIGINAL: Aurelian

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ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

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ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Hi Guys! I'm late to the conversation telling Matrix how to run their business. What'd I miss?

Nothing.

Well, it sure fueled another two pages worth of posts in a flash. Care to summarize for those that don't wish to wade through banalities for 60+ posts?

They don't like the price. And think the company doesn't know what it's doing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Really? Valve puts out games such as WiTP-AE, WiTE, and CMANO?.

If so, since when? If not, then why bring them up? No point in it.

These type of threads are started by people who have not run a computer game business. It doesn't matter what the price is, they will complain, as stated in a different thread.

I'll say it again. They have presented *nothing* to back their position. They have not presented anything that shows this company is on the wrong track.

Make the claim that they're losing sales, let's see the numbers.

Make the claim that they will make more money by cutting the price, let's see the numbers.

Show me what the profit margin is on an $80 game. Then show me how many more they have to sell to make the same amount.

Better yet, show the company that make a game as rich and detailed and complex as Command, for a much lower price. Oh, it must cover the same time frame too.



Some guy makes a claim that this price isn't going to bring in "new blood". Well, it isn't supposed to. That's why there are free games here. That's what there are lower complexity games for this "new blood" to dip their toe in.

I could cite Naval War Arctic Circle with a base price of 19.99 USD and having been dropped as low as 4.99 USD through the course of sales, or Fleet Command with a base price of 19.99 USD and having dropped as low as 1.99 USD during certain sales, but I'm sure you'd just move the goalposts further to some kind of arbitrary reasoning as to why those don't count.

Which circles back to the idea that it doesn't count because it's not War in the East, or it's not War in the Pacific, because wargaming as a genre is some kind of unique, special snowflake that will somehow spell doom for a company that tries to pull off the same kind of bell-curve sale economics that have worked on so many other games.

IL-2 Sturmovik is deep and complex, but it isn't a strategy game about the Eastern Front, therefore putting WITE on a 75% sale every once a while isn't going to generate more revenue than just keeping the price high.

X: Beyond the Frontier/X2: The Threat/X3: Albion Prelude has a very niche appeal, but it isn't a strategy game about the Eastern Front, therefore putting WITE on a 75% sale means the developers won't be able to afford to continue the series

Train Simulator 2012/2013/2014 has a ton of expensive DLC behind it, but it isn't a strategy game about the Eastern Front, therefore putting the main client on a 90% sale every once a while isn't ever going to win any new customers

Hearts of Iron 3 is a deep and complex strategy that does cover the Eastern Front, and is Paradox's best-selling game, but that's just an anomaly, I guess.

In the meantime, Matrix is selling Unity of Command for 10 dollars more than Steam or Gamersgate or even directly from the developer is. What, pray tell, is the justification for this 10 dollar mark-up? Is UOC suddenly more deep and complex when bought from Matrix?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000
In the meantime, Matrix is selling Unity of Command for 10 dollars more than Steam or Gamersgate or even directly from the developer is. What, pray tell, is the justification for this 10 dollar mark-up? Is UOC suddenly more deep and complex when bought from Matrix?

I'm pretty sure the answer is 'Matrix have so much contempt for you as a customer that they don't think you'll spend 30 seconds searching for a better deal. And by keeping this community insular and isolated from the mainstream they're probably right.'

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ORIGINAL: flanyboy

No point in arguing with a sound factual argument like that.

I state a valid and common reason pricing is different in many products and you respond by completely dismissing that with a personal opinion and no justification other than what you Think and no facts.

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Also I think another valid concern would be that if Matrix started limited deep discounts they would undercut their entire catalog and while some games might bring in more revenue, other games might lose revenue. Not all games become blockbusters and not all Matrix Games would translate well to the mainstream even if some do. Their fear likely is that if you sell some games dramatically cheaper than others you'll drive those who don't do well in the system away and it will hurt the company on the whole even if a couple of titles do really well. Their segment of developers isn't large enough that it would be wise to risk alienating half their base if the deep discounts don't work.

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ORIGINAL: flanyboy

That's not what I was saying at all. I'm saying that matrix has variety in the games it sells. WITP is a good game IMHO but you'd never convince 90+% of steam users to play it no matter the price. Panzer Corps or Battle Academy would more likely appeal to a wider base and do we at bargain prices. Matrix could risk compromising their catalog by having two different marketing tactics. If they had a catalog of 200 games they could do that but as a smaller producer they likely are not large enough to effectively market and target two totally different customer sets.

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Other Stats

Steam provides the most detailed stats of any of our platforms, so let's look at some interesting data from there.

37.6 percent
Steam demo-to-sale conversion rate

This stat means that over 1/3 of all people who have ever played the Steam demo go on to buy the full game. This speaks well of not only our demo, but also the Steam platform itself. Installing and playing a demo on Steam is often just as easy as playing a browser demo on the web -- the player clicks one button, waits for the game to download, and then she's ready to play.

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Final Takeaways

Making good games is hard. Selling good games is even harder. So many factors are outside of your control, and even if you do everything right success may still elude you.

I used to believe that if I worked really hard and made something great, an audience would magically find me and we'd make a lot of money. Reality is quite different.

Sales basically comes down to a simple formula:

Eyeballs * Conversion_Rate = Sales

You can't directly control the ebb and flow of the fickle eyeballs of the internet. You can, however, control how many you capture when they show up.

So make your pitch. Tell them what you're about. Give them a free sample. Repeat nice things others have said, and if you're so inclined, tell them if it's okay for their kids. Learn all about what Tadhg Kelly calls the Marketing Story. Be human, be humble, be open, and if fortune is on your side, good things can happen.

And when you're done, come back and share your data with the world! It's scary out there, and the more information we share, the easier it is for the next developers to chart their path.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Artic Circle: As of January 23, 2013, support for the game has been abandoned by Paradox and Turbo Tape Games, who released a statement saying: "Naval War: Arctic Circle has reached the end of its development, and patches or DLC for the title will no longer be produced under the Paradox Interactive brand. Yep, I have to buy that one right away.

And still, it doesn't cover what CMANO covers. So you missed your own goal posta.

Fleet Command: A game form 1999. Set in the 1990s. Rereleased a couple of times. Once again, you missed.

Il2: An old game far past support. (I have all of them btw. Including CoD, not all that great is that one.) Again, you miss, it is not anywhere near CMANO.

Train Simulator: Really? The only thing in common between the two is that they're software? Another miss.

Steam and Gamersgate: How much money did they spend developing anything? BTW, Unity of Command? Really? What part of "Better yet, show the company that make a game as rich and detailed and complex as Command, for a much lower price. Oh, it must cover the same time frame too." does that fall under?

What part of that has *any* of your choices fall under?

Moving goalposts? You're haven't even got past your own 20 yard line.

You haven't presented *any* data that even comes close to what I asked for over and over.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

In the meantime, Matrix is selling Unity of Command for 10 dollars more than Steam or Gamersgate or even directly from the developer is. What, pray tell, is the justification for this 10 dollar mark-up? Is UOC suddenly more deep and complex when bought from Matrix?

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ORIGINAL: flanyboy

Grade here's a problem, maybe there is info I'm not privy to but we have no clue what Arctic Circle or Fleet Command made financially do we?

quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

The key takeaways from those two articles are:

1. Release day sales are still a big chunk of revenue: the "people will never buy full price again because they'll all wait for a sale" effect is exaggerated. This is especially true if you offer pre-order (10-15%) sales, yet another thing that Matrix doesn't bother doing.

2. Total revenue always goes up during a sale, even if price-per-unit goes down.

3. Demos are arguably a hit-or-miss thing because you're taking away dev time from just building the whole game period, but they are a viable alternative to selling a game so cheap that a person is willing to jump into it blind ... except for the fact that Matrix does neither - WITE / WITP / CMANO and most of their catalogue is expensive to consider buying if you don't already know that you're going to like a game, yet at the same time only Command Ops has a demo.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Artic Circle: As of January 23, 2013, support for the game has been abandoned by Paradox and Turbo Tape Games, who released a statement saying: "Naval War: Arctic Circle has reached the end of its development, and patches or DLC for the title will no longer be produced under the Paradox Interactive brand. Yep, I have to buy that one right away.

And still, it doesn't cover what CMANO covers. So you missed your own goal posta.

Fleet Command: A game form 1999. Set in the 1990s. Rereleased a couple of times. Once again, you missed.

Il2: An old game far past support. (I have all of them btw. Including CoD, not all that great is that one.) Again, you miss, it is not anywhere near CMANO.

Train Simulator: Really? The only thing in common between the two is that they're software? Another miss.

Steam and Gamersgate: How much money did they spend developing anything? BTW, Unity of Command? Really? What part of "Better yet, show the company that make a game as rich and detailed and complex as Command, for a much lower price. Oh, it must cover the same time frame too." does that fall under?

What part of that has *any* of your choices fall under?

Moving goalposts? You're haven't even got past your own 20 yard line.

You haven't presented *any* data that even comes close to what I asked for over and over.

Are you really going to argue "discontinuation of support" as a point FOR Matrix? You can still buy Naval War and you can still buy IL-2. Matrix just pulls the plug on their older games and refuses to sell them, period.

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ORIGINAL: Rtwfreak

The minute Matrixgames starts to give deep discounts it when they will start on the spiral out of business because the smart shopper will start to wait on the bargain bin prices on the majority of products.