Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Falkland Scenario

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Command: Modern Operations series >> Falkland Scenario Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Falkland Scenario - 10/8/2013 11:30:17 AM   
Krasny

 

Posts: 315
Joined: 7/3/2003
Status: offline 		The Falkland scenario opens up with a neutral missile heading towards your ship.

The only sane thing to do is shoot it down. But that leads to all Argentinian forces becoming hostile.

There is a question here somewhere.

Does shooting the missile down violate the ROE? If so why don't I lose the scenario?

Thanks.

_____________________________
Post #: 1
RE: Falkland Scenario - 10/8/2013 11:39:39 AM   
ComDev

 

Posts: 5735
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline 		Which Falklands scenario?

_____________________________



Developer "Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations" project!

(in reply to Krasny)
Post #: 2
RE: Falkland Scenario - 10/8/2013 11:46:32 AM   
Krasny

 

Posts: 315
Joined: 7/3/2003
Status: offline 		Stand Up.

_____________________________


(in reply to ComDev)
Post #: 3
RE: Falkland Scenario - 10/8/2013 11:48:55 AM   
mattpenfold

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 7/1/2006
Status: offline 		The RoE allow you to defend yourself.

(in reply to Krasny)
Post #: 4
RE: Falkland Scenario - 10/8/2013 11:49:55 AM   
Krasny

 

Posts: 315
Joined: 7/3/2003
Status: offline 		The ROE in this scenario do seem to be a complete nonsense.

I just had the Portland sunk due to not shooting at neutral units.

_____________________________


(in reply to Krasny)
Post #: 5
RE: Falkland Scenario - 10/8/2013 11:53:46 AM   
Krasny

 

Posts: 315
Joined: 7/3/2003
Status: offline 		Like I said the only sane thing to do when a missile is coming towards you is to shoot it down.

Since that occurs at the start of the scenario, and results in all Argentine units turning hostile, the ROE is borked.

_____________________________


(in reply to Krasny)
Post #: 6
RE: Falkland Scenario - 10/8/2013 11:56:46 AM   
mattpenfold

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 7/1/2006
Status: offline 		How is that nonsense ?

The RoE allow you to defend yourself. To quote the RoE: "UK forces may only fire in self defense or when its absolutely clear they're going to be attacked."

Being fired on means you can fire back.

(in reply to Krasny)
Post #: 7
RE: Falkland Scenario - 10/8/2013 12:01:16 PM   
Krasny

 

Posts: 315
Joined: 7/3/2003
Status: offline 		Because the scenario begins in a de facto state of war anyway, and because the shooting down of one missile should not result in total war.

_____________________________


(in reply to mattpenfold)
Post #: 8
RE: Falkland Scenario - 10/8/2013 12:12:07 PM   
mattpenfold

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 7/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Krasny

Because the scenario begins in a de facto state of war anyway, and because the shooting down of one missile should not result in total war.


It does not result in total war.

What part of the British having to wait until they are either fired on, or are certain they are going to be fired on are you having problems understanding ? The rules represent British uncertainty about Argentinian intentions. They are allowed to defend themselves if attacked. They are not allowed to initiate hostilities. Pretty much standard rules of engagement in peacetime. Clearly in your game the Argentinians attacked you early on - that is not always the case. Once they attack you you are allowed to shoot back - if you could not be bothered doing so that is your lookout.


(in reply to Krasny)
Post #: 9
RE: Falkland Scenario - 10/8/2013 5:13:51 PM   
kaburke61

 

Posts: 225
Joined: 9/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mattpenfold


quote:

ORIGINAL: Krasny

Because the scenario begins in a de facto state of war anyway, and because the shooting down of one missile should not result in total war.


It does not result in total war.

What part of the British having to wait until they are either fired on, or are certain they are going to be fired on are you having problems understanding ? The rules represent British uncertainty about Argentinian intentions. They are allowed to defend themselves if attacked. They are not allowed to initiate hostilities. Pretty much standard rules of engagement in peacetime. Clearly in your game the Argentinians attacked you early on - that is not always the case. Once they attack you you are allowed to shoot back - if you could not be bothered doing so that is your lookout.




Yep, in my run through, Argentina did not attack early at all, in fact I finally initiated hostilities when a flight of their aircraft (a4? can't remember now) was on an attack vector to my ship.

(in reply to mattpenfold)
Post #: 10
RE: Falkland Scenario - 10/8/2013 5:55:24 PM   
$trummer

 

Posts: 248
Joined: 7/27/2013
Status: offline 		I was curious about the ROE here, too. I wasn't attacked but initiated hostilities when one of the Argentinian warships came too close to Port Stanley for comfort and large numbers of fighters were launching from the mainland. I don't agree that the ROE make no sense, but it would be more realistic if (i) the briefing/ROE incorporated a specific exclusion zone around the islands, incursions into which will formally initiate hostities and/or (ii) it were possible to program the AI to have a "disengage" option so that the scenario is not automatically "all or nothing". Deterrence operations do not generally result in worst-case outcomes; they generally play out as standoffs, games of "chicken"; difficult, if not impossible, for computer AI to model this, though.

< Message edited by $trummer -- 10/8/2013 5:56:47 PM >

(in reply to kaburke61)
Post #: 11
RE: Falkland Scenario - 10/8/2013 6:15:44 PM   
Krasny

 

Posts: 315
Joined: 7/3/2003
Status: offline 		Is there any downside to initiating hostilities?

Also firing on a missile does result in total war. All Argentinian units become hostile.

_____________________________


(in reply to $trummer)
Post #: 12
RE: Falkland Scenario - 10/8/2013 8:12:05 PM   
kaburke61

 

Posts: 225
Joined: 9/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Krasny

Is there any downside to initiating hostilities?

Also firing on a missile does result in total war. All Argentinian units become hostile.


I don't think so, least not in my playthoroughs....

I'm not sure, but I don't think currently there is a way to penalize for breaking ROE (for instance to tell who sunk a neutral unit) I just started playing with scenario creation so I may not have figured it out yet.

(in reply to Krasny)
Post #: 13
RE: Falkland Scenario - 10/8/2013 9:00:56 PM   
mattpenfold

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 7/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Krasny

Is there any downside to initiating hostilities?

Also firing on a missile does result in total war. All Argentinian units become hostile.



All Argentinian units becoming hostile is not total war. Total war is a term with a quite specific meaning and that meaning involves the entire industrial and economic focus of a nation being devoted to the war. A small war in the South Atlantic does not qualify, despite your claims to the contrary. Not even the war in '82 was a total war. The last total war the UK was involved in was the Second World War.

(in reply to Krasny)
Post #: 14
RE: Falkland Scenario - 10/8/2013 9:16:24 PM   
Krasny

 

Posts: 315
Joined: 7/3/2003
Status: offline 		Well whatever you wish to call it, shooting down one missile results in all Argentinian units becoming hostile.

_____________________________


(in reply to mattpenfold)
Post #: 15
RE: Falkland Scenario - 10/8/2013 9:26:21 PM   
mattpenfold

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 7/1/2006
Status: offline 		Who do you think fired the missile ?

I really cannot understand quite what your issue is.

The situation is like this. There are tensions between the UK and Argentina at the start of the scenario but as yet no hostilities. Your role as commander of the UK forces is to position your units in such a way you will be able to respond to any Argentinian aggression without being the side that initiates hostilities. If and when the Argentinians start shooting you are free to fire back.

What is so hard to understand about that ?

(in reply to Krasny)
Post #: 16
RE: Falkland Scenario - 10/8/2013 9:33:25 PM   
Krasny

 

Posts: 315
Joined: 7/3/2003
Status: offline 		I'm saying that shooting down a missile should not necessarily start a war.

Also this scenario exposes the RoE as being merely roleplaying guidelines.

_____________________________


(in reply to mattpenfold)
Post #: 17
RE: Falkland Scenario - 10/8/2013 9:35:33 PM   
ExMachina


Posts: 462
Joined: 9/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

Well whatever you wish to call it, shooting down one missile results in all Argentinian units becoming hostile.


The "hostility" is merely a designation by the British player. Argentina lobs a missile at a British vessel and the Brits say "ok, looks like Argentinian forces are hostile".

(in reply to mattpenfold)
Post #: 18
RE: Falkland Scenario - 10/8/2013 9:38:28 PM   
mattpenfold

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 7/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Krasny

I'm saying that shooting down a missile should not necessarily start a war.

Also this scenario exposes the RoE as being merely roleplaying guidelines.


I am still not understanding what your issue is.

The Argentinians fired a missile at you, thus initiating hostilities.

(in reply to Krasny)
Post #: 19
RE: Falkland Scenario - 10/8/2013 9:39:43 PM   
ExMachina


Posts: 462
Joined: 9/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

I'm saying that shooting down a missile should not necessarily start a war.


Technically correct--the shooting down shouldn't start hostilities. Rather, the hostilities should start when the missile was first detected...are you saying that the scenario waits too long to declare Argentina's forces hostile?

(in reply to Krasny)
Post #: 20
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Command: Modern Operations series >> Falkland Scenario Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.438