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Kill Zones & Choke Points - 10/14/2013 6:47:19 PM   
Grim.Reaper


Posts: 1355
Joined: 12/31/2009
Status: offline 		I know, probably newbie type questions, but will ask anyway. I have heard a number of people mention kill zones and choke points. Generally speaking, I know what they are meant to do, but would like if any of the experienced people can speak to them in the context of the game. For example, setting up a kill zone. What exactly do you do to do this? What are the best areas/terrain to do it? Are there good units for this work? Is there a way to lure your opponent into them? etc.

Again, hoping for advice in the context of this game, versus just generic real world explanations....thanks!

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 10/14/2013 8:33:28 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
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From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		Grim,

Real world and the game answers are the same. A choke point is an area where forces are funneled into a much smaller area like a bridge crossing or narrow forest road. A kill zone is a place where units have little to no cover and they can be fired on from high cover positions. If you can get both, the enemy will have a bad day.

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 10/14/2013 9:05:49 PM   
jnpoint


Posts: 549
Joined: 8/9/2007
From: Holstebro, Denmark
Status: offline 		Thanks, nice to know - yes, I didn't know that either :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

Grim,

Real world and the game answers are the same. A choke point is an area where forces are funneled into a much smaller area like a bridge crossing or narrow forest road. A kill zone is a place where units have little to no cover and they can be fired on from high cover positions. If you can get both, the enemy will have a bad day.


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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 10/14/2013 10:19:07 PM   
Grim.Reaper


Posts: 1355
Joined: 12/31/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks for the explanation...is there any tricks to get the enemy to funnel into a defined kill zone or is it more luck if the enemy ends up in the right spot? Just hate to lay a trap without the enemy even coming close to it, but I guess that is part of the game. I would hope the AI might recognize the trap at times and find alternative ways around....I guess I can't have my cake and eat it too:)

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 10/14/2013 10:28:52 PM   
MrLongleg

 

Posts: 707
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Plymouth, MA, USA
Status: offline 		The screen shot shows a perfect kill zone. 9 British tanks hidden in the forest above the road killed about 48 Russian tanks coming down the road. Most of them even did not know what hit them. At the end the Brits lost 7 tanks, only 2 of them destroyed.




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MrLongleg

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 10/14/2013 10:32:58 PM   
schmolywar

 

Posts: 178
Joined: 12/12/2010
Status: offline 		One trick is to use one of your units, preferably infantry in a hold position, to delay the enemy columns and let them shoot at you. Usually, unless the enemy vehicles have a hasty order, they will stop to focus on your infantry unit. You can then target the static column with artillery.

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-Peculiarities of russian warfare

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 10/14/2013 10:34:56 PM   
Grim.Reaper


Posts: 1355
Joined: 12/31/2009
Status: offline 		wow..thanks for sharing....48 killed units in the same spot, I would say that is a pretty good kill zone....kind of interesting the enemy didn't see 48 burning vehicles ahead of them and kept coming that route, might have been a good warning for them to choose a different path:)

Again, thanks for sharing. Exactly the information I was looking to receive.

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 10/14/2013 11:27:08 PM   
MrLongleg

 

Posts: 707
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Plymouth, MA, USA
Status: offline 		Due to blown bridges that was their only way to get to the VP's in reasonable time..

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 10/14/2013 11:28:25 PM   
Grim.Reaper


Posts: 1355
Joined: 12/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Haudrauf1962

Due to blown bridges that was their only way to get to the VP's in reasonable time..



Ah...makes sense. Well done in putting a great kill zone into play to force that situation.....impressive.

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 10/15/2013 2:26:17 AM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
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From: Texas
Status: offline 		Here is an example of a choke point.

Roads are very much choke points when they go through restricted terrain. (Anything that slows a units normal speed.)

You can see where the Soviets come out of the north access road through the forest. Where that 150 Soviet control VL is would be a perfect place to setup a kill zone.

The south access road through the forest shows the effects of using a road as a choke point that ends up with multiple kill zones as they advanced through the forest.

The Soviets actually went down this road 3 actual times. They would start down the road and get stopped. Leave, have the NATO units move away and then they would come back and try to get through again. On the 4th time they managed to get all the way through the forest to the VL on the other side. At which time they came out into a Kill Zone. You can see all the loss markers that mark the progress of the battles.

Good Hunting.

MR






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< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 10/15/2013 2:27:57 AM >

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 10/15/2013 7:05:58 PM   
Grim.Reaper


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Status: offline 		Thanks MR, great example.

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 10/15/2013 7:26:21 PM   
cbelva


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grim.Reaper

wow..thanks for sharing....48 killed units in the same spot, I would say that is a pretty good kill zone....kind of interesting the enemy didn't see 48 burning vehicles ahead of them and kept coming that route, might have been a good warning for them to choose a different path:)


In fact the AI is coded to do just that. There are times and situation where that is not possible to reroute. If you have a good ambush setup you can get a good number of kills. The AI will and can read the crosses on the map and choose to reroute follow-on forces if it deems necessary.

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 10/15/2013 8:50:49 PM   
MikeAP

 

Posts: 266
Joined: 3/7/2008
Status: offline 		Varsity Level Tip

Analyze weapon systems when developing your engagement areas (kill zones), especially if you're equipped with ATGM's. ATGM's will always out range tank cannon and should be kept outside of cannon range when you're on the defense.

Stagger your weapon systems and use combined arms tactics. FIX the enemy as they approach, first with ATGM's, then with artillery/CAS/CCA, and finally tank cannon to destroy.

< Message edited by MikeAP -- 10/15/2013 9:32:06 PM >

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 12/29/2013 12:49:14 PM   
Mark Florio

 

Posts: 38
Joined: 12/26/2013
From: Connecticut
Status: offline 		In the real world, as a former US Army tank officer the entire landscape of Germany is defined by fast speed avenues of approach (think roads and autobahn)that were key to Soviet doctrine. Also, the terrain is made up of valleys and choke-points that we used to call 'bowling allies' because the ridges were covered in woods and the center was a road. They look like bowling allies on a map too. Typical of most terrain in the FRG at the time. Anyway, we knew that the Soviets had to use those fast approaches so we trained to setup kill-sacks and areas of denial to channel the enemy into our terrain of choice. To setup a kill zone, use mines at the limit of your weapons and cover every obstacle with infantry and prepare to hammer with Arty as they choke up the narrow bowling allies. Oh also, be sure to keep a platoon or two of tanks to counter attack locally.

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 12/29/2013 3:55:57 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Then get ready!

The fight will be on.

They will throw the kitchen sink at you when they engage!

Good Hunting.

MR

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Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 1/12/2014 2:56:24 PM   
Showtime 100_MatrixForum

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 9/25/2013
Status: offline 		If your armor has thermal sights, keep in mind that you can make life far, far harder for Pact units to hit them by dropping smoke right on top of your position. Your armor isn't hindered very much by the smoke since they can see right through it, but Pact units will need to be very close before they can shoot back. Combine this with a good choke point and you might find that your biggest concern is no longer survival, but having a solid enough command loop to rotate your armor in and out so that they don't run out of ammo and can keep up the tempo. My most recent play of A Time To Dance had me barely capable of moving fresh tanks into the treeline around 1415 before the last ones I'd sat down ran out of ammo; if I'd had one more command phase before the Soviets took 70% casualties I would have been prepared to roll back over the bridge at hex 1615 and begin the counteroffensive! Everyone knows that invading Russia is easy, right?

I'd recommend keeping your units as spread out as possible while still being able to concentrate an effective amount of fire on the units in your killing zone. Even if the artillery that the Russians drop on you leaves your tanks in working order, it can really hurt their readiness -- it's hard to pay attention to the enemy when you can't see anything past all the explosions around you. Spreading your units out can make a big difference since they need to call artillery down in multiple hexes to achieve the same effect they would in one barrage if you stacked all your tanks on top of each other. This also makes it easier to stagger your R&R; if you're only pulling one unit back at a time, you don't lose as much firepower.

Remember that it's okay to leave if things get too hairy. M1s are great at longer ranges, but the only real advantages they have over most models of T-80 are their optics and their stabilizers. If they get close, they'll gladly trade tanks with you -- and that's not something you can afford to do, since they've got more of them.

< Message edited by Showtime 100 -- 1/12/2014 11:17:31 PM >

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 1/12/2014 4:05:59 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		What is TI?

I'm going out on a limb here and thinking that you are talking about Thermal Imagining sights. If that is in fact what you are talking about everybody on these forums may not catch that. We need to at least spell out the abbreviations before we use them exclusively.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 1/12/2014 5:07:52 PM >

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Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 1/17/2014 12:28:03 AM   
Paulus Pak

 

Posts: 109
Joined: 1/23/2001
From: Warsaw, Poland
Status: offline 		1 Is there a formation type code that influence the resitance of a unit (I mean a single counter) when fired upon? I mean, if a unit (nato platoon/soviet company) moves down the road through restricted terrain is it internally arrayed in a column and can be easily shoot-up? Is this coded in any way (open formation in open terrain)?
2 Regarding LOS - let's say, I'm moving a unit into a position, that can be normally spotted be the enemy, but I screen this position with smokescreen. Unit become stationary before smoke dissipates. Can this unit be spotted by the enemy, If yes - on what conditions?
3 Is there a difference between spotting a platoon (3-4 tanks) and a company (12-14 tanks)? So, are soviet - bigger - units more susceptible to spotting than nato - smaller units?

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 1/17/2014 1:15:00 AM   
jenrick

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 1/10/2014
Status: offline 		I can only offer an answer to #1. Per the manual and it seems to be born out in gameplay, your vehicles are at risk (in order of decreasing vulnerability) moving in hasty, assault, deliberate. Hasty is march column on a road, assault units wont stop and try to find cover and engage, while deliberate uses available cover and will go to screen if solid contact is made.

-Jenrick

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 1/21/2014 7:36:16 PM   
daferg

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 11/22/2010
Status: offline 		Once you learn how to effectively use kill zones and choke points you will be able avoid falling into the same trap. You can funnel the enemy into kill zones and choke points by using the terrain to your advantage or dropping FASCAM minefields. Several well placed minefields will make your enemy take the path of least resistance. Or natural terrain features like rivers running parallel to a road or a road going through a steep valley. A good example of a choke point is the front door to your house. If a group of men break into your house through the front door they can only enter the doorway one at a time and they are in a single file. If you sit in your Lazyboy chair with a shotgun you have a pretty good kill zone.

Murphy said it best: If your attack is going to well you are probably walking into an ambush. He also said the plan you worked very hard on goes out the window once the bullets start flying.

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 1/23/2014 11:27:46 AM   
WayneBGood

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 8/19/2004
Status: offline 		I like this discussion about kill zones and as a NATO player it's a must learn. My question is how does the PACT player successfully overcome these zones when maneuver is not an option? I assume you would do recon with fire support from your artillery before committing your main force with persistent smoke. It's time consuming to try going through the forests and usually creates a failure for obtaining your victory goals.Hopefully some of you have tactics as to how to avoid kill zones and bypassing choke points.

thanks,
Wayne

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 1/23/2014 12:43:59 PM   
daferg

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 11/22/2010
Status: offline 		This is what was told to me back in the day:

The Pact forces assault NATO positions in three different areas. The first groups attack has failed and Pact fores are retreating. The second groups attack has stalled and is not advancing nor retreating. The third group is still attacking and advancing under murderous losses. All three group commanders are screaming for artillery/air support and reinforcements. How would the overall Pact commander respond to these request? The purpose of attacking three separate points was to find a weak spot in the NATO lines. Once the lines were breached they would exploit the breakthrough. The first and second group failed and will not get support. Only the third group will be rewarded with support because they are still accomplishing the mission.

I cannot speak for every 'NATO' commander out there but I bet allocation of support would be different. Maybe an arty smoke mission and FASCAM deployment for the first group. The second group has the enemy stopped so airstrikes will be used against them. Maybe split my reserves and reinforce the second group with fresh troops. What ever was left goes to the third group.

I was not in the Red Army but I really don't think they were the type to reward failure. If the third group is able to exploit the breakthrough, the other two attacks become moot point. NATO could try staging a counter attack from there but it will be met by fresh follow=on forces.

So how do you succeed if you are the Pact forces? Violence and speed of action. Do not reinforce failure and understand you will lose lots of men. If one M1 tank can kill five T-80s in a minute then you send six. Do not stop a successful attack because of losses only. If you guess right you are a Hero of the Soviet Union. If you guess wrong you are a Hero of NATO. Haha

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 1/23/2014 2:09:45 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		To understand the differences in the two military forces is the key.

The Soviet/WP forces are large and unwieldy. They take time to make changes to the plan. They are like a heavy weight boxer. Slow moving and big but don't let them get close. Their goal is to get in close and hit you hard.

NATO's forces are much smaller and lighter. They move quicker and react to changes much easier. Like a light weight boxer. Light on their feet but with quick moves and strong jabs. The goals is to wear you down so they can get a good shot.

Soviet/WP forces hit you hard and keep moving forward. They want to get in close and knock you out with continued heavy blows.

NATO forces are moving all around them and trying to inflict as much damage as possible early. To wear them down.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 1/23/2014 3:10:07 PM >

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Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 1/23/2014 10:47:57 PM   
jenrick

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 1/10/2014
Status: offline 		As mentioned above the key to a WP movement is to reinforce success. This can be accomplished a few ways. A recon screen moved forward to locate the enemy followed by an aggressive push by tanks in the lightest defense can reap good rewards. You can also reverse things, and lead with the tanks and funnel your MRR into the gaps that are created.

If one of your assaults runs into a well laid fire sack, the majority of the NATO defenses are probably there. They don't usually have enough units to setup too many strong points. Leave that assault to it's fate, and drive on in area that is less well defended.

-Jenrick

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 1/24/2014 1:58:02 AM   
WayneBGood

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 8/19/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks for all the tips!

Wayne

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Post #: 25
RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 12/28/2017 7:33:38 PM   
KungPao


Posts: 333
Joined: 4/25/2016
From: Red China
Status: offline 		Hope this is a good example

Scenario "12 Bravo", NATO's forward defense position is falling apart, Soviet AI made several breakthrough.
After evaluation I decided to abandon the hill behind Freigerich, pull back D co./32nd Arm. Requested B co./32nd Arm to move forward, built up a kill zone at hex 2106 on route L3483.
originally I was thinking to bring up another tank company but changed the plan because I realized it is an overkill to have 3 tank co. to defend a road, also I need troops somewhere else

So, I have total 5 tank plt, occupied hex 1805, 1704, 1904, 2003, 2104, they all have LOS at Hex 2106 which is the kill zone. As you can see from the pic, if they Soviet is at Hex 2206, they won't see anything, but as soon as they reach hex 2106, they will be shot by 20 M1 at the range between 1000m-2000m.

a Soviet T-80BV company was wiped out in 2 min. It didn't got a chance to shoot back. A BMP company received the same gift, only two infantry survived the first salvo.





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< Message edited by KungPao -- 12/28/2017 7:38:52 PM >

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RE: Kill Zones & Choke Points - 4/27/2018 3:15:14 PM   
ctcharger

 

Posts: 96
Joined: 3/12/2017
From: Akron, OH
Status: offline 		Note to self:
Avoid roads next to trees that have not been blasted ahead of time with artillery..
Look up what it takes to cross unabridged water and how to clear mines...


Is that a map mod? That looks pretty cool!

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