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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/20/2013 1:05:06 PM   
warspite1


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[2885] [South African 4th Motorized Corps - by Robert Jenkins]
.P This is a "what-if" counter. The South African Army fielded two infantry divisions in the early part of the war (see 1st South African Infantry Corps counter). Due to the problem of attracting sufficient volunteers to join the army, keeping both infantry divisions in the field was soon proving a big challenge however.
.P It was decided that one way to alleviate the problem of a lack of troops was to turn the infantry divisions into armoured divisions; the latter requiring a smaller infantry component.
.P Unfortunately, the plan to create two armoured divisions proved to be woefully optimistic, largely as a result of the 2nd Infantry Division being taken into captivity when the Libyan port of Tobruk fell to the Afrika Korps in June 1942.
.P After the triumph at El-Alamein and the successful pursuit of the Afrika Korps back to Tunisia, it was decided to disband the 1st Infantry Division in January 1943 and begin the process of conversion of this division. Raising a second such division never happened as not only was there a problem of raising sufficient volunteers, but those volunteers had to agree to fight outside of the continent of Africa.
.P The 6th South African Armoured Division, commanded by Major-General William Poole, began forming in early 1943. It spent just over a year in training in Egypt before being shipped to Italy in April 1944.
At that time the division consisted of:
.B 11th Armoured Brigade
.B 12th Motorised Infantry Brigade
.B Note the 13th Motorised Infantry Brigade was available to join the division only in early 1945. During its time in Italy, where it served until the end of the war, the division was reinforced by the British 24th Guards Brigade pending the arrival of the 13th Motorised Brigade.
.B 1st / 11th Anti-tank Regiment
.B 1st / 6th Field Regiment
.B 4th / 22nd Field Regiment
.B 1st / 12th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment
.B 7th / 23rd Medium Regiment
.B Note the dual identification reflects the fact that many units could be formed only by merging existing formations.
.B Other divisional units
.P As an armoured division, the 6th was not really what the Allied commanders in Italy wanted; this was due to the fact that the terrain fought over in the Italian Campaign was far from ideal tank country. However, by early 1944 the need for troops overrode that concern.
.P The 12th Motorised Brigade were the first troops of the division to go into action. The Brigade fought at the Battle of Monte Cassino, initially under the command of the 2nd New Zealand Division.
.P After the fall of Cassino the Brigade was sent to join the rest of the division. Initially attached to the Canadian 1st Corps, the division was under the command of the British 13th Corps in June when it won a victory near the town of Celleno. Later than month however, the South Africans lost a whole company of men during an attack on the town of Chiusi.
.P The following month saw the division advance on Florence as the left wing of the XIII corps and the Italian city was entered at the beginning of August. At the end of that month, Captain Gerard Norton won the Victoria Cross (the highest award for gallantry in the face of the enemy for British and Commonwealth forces) at Montegridolfo. This was part of Operation Olive, an offensive against the Gothic Line.
.P Throughout September and October the division fought under the command of the US IV Corps and also under direct command of the US 5th Army before being pulled
out of the frontline for rest and refit.
.P The division returned to action in time for the Spring Offensive (Operation Grapeshot) in February 1945, after which the 6th Armoured Division earned strong praise from the US 5th Army General Mark Clark.
.P The Italian Campaign had cost the South Africans 3,543 casualties, of which 711 were killed.


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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2371
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/20/2013 2:13:41 PM   
Centuur


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Small typo in this one:

[2882] [South African Cape Town Militia - by Robert Jenkins]
.P This counter provides an overview of South Africa’s involvement in World War II.
.P When the United Kingdom declared war on Germany in September 1939, the dominions of Australia, Canada and New Zealand were, for the most part, quick to rally behind the mother country and declare war on Germany also. The situation in South Africa was a little different.
.P A number of South Africans had non-British ancestry (Afrikaans) and memories of the Boer Wars, in which the Afrikaners fought the British at the end of the previous century, remained fresh. Most Afrikaners were opposed to fighting a war alongside the British and against Germany.
.P The Prime Minister of South Africa at the time, Barry Herzog, was himself born into a German immigrant family and during the Boer War he fought against the British. Not surprisingly therefore he proposed a stance of neutrality for South Africa. But on the 4th September 1939, the day after the British and French went to war with Germany, the South African parliament refused to pursue this route. Herzog was deposed and replaced by Jan Smuts. Although of Afrikaans descent and a former Boer fighter himself, Smuts view was that the United Kingdom was a friend of South Africa.
.P Although Smuts was now in charge, the Second World War, and South Africa’s role in it, continued to divide the country. As Prime Minister, one of his first tasks was to sort out the not inconsequential matter that the South African armed forces were in no fit state to fight a war. There was no conscription and an all-volunteer force was needed. In some cases Afrikaners did put on uniform, but this was more likely to be for reasons of needing work than for any agreement with the war. South Africa allowed non-whites to join the armed forces, but only in a non-combatant role.
.P These problems of course caused issues in terms of the numbers of units the South Africans could field. In September 1939 the South African Army numbered less than 4,000 men, although there were almost 15,000 in the Active Citizens Force (a body that provided peace time training and that could be called upon in time of emergency). However, the number of volunteers that did sign up meant that the Army could proceed to form three infantry divisions. In actual fact only two of these served in the North and East African Campaigns (see 1st South African Infantry
Corps counter). The 3rd Division never left South Africa (see South African Territorial counters) and was eventually disbanded.
.P The South African Army was also limited in terms of where it could be deployed. Volunteers were asked to sign up to a document that meant they could be sent anywhere in Africa (Smuts recognised that Italy would be likely to join the war). When the Axis forces were later kicked out of North Africa the South African Army put into operation plans to create two armoured divisions. Unfortunately the problems of manpower and the need to get people to volunteer to fight outside of Africa restricted these plans such that only one division was capable of being put into the field (see 4th South African Motorised Corps).
.P In 1939 the South African Air Force (SAAF) contained less than 2,000 men. Half a dozen Hurricane Mk 1 fighters, one Fairy Battle and one Blenheim represented the entirety of their frontline aircraft. Immediate plans were put in place for the purchase of 720 aircraft and for a rapid expansion in personnel. Within two years the position had been transformed and South Africa contributed a modern air force to the Allied cause with an excellent training arm that was used to train British pilots and those of other Allied nationalities.
.P At its peak, the SAAF contained 26 squadrons. Around 9,000 South African airmen served with the Royal Air Force and other Allied forces.
.P In September 1939 navy consisted of less than 10 people and no ships, although the South African Division of the Royal Navy had a Volunteer Reserve of around 600 sailors. Again the position was quickly changed and the newly named, Seaward Defence Force, was soon operating minesweepers and four anti-submarine vessels along the South African coastline. Some of these vessels were sent to the Mediterranean at the request of the Royal Navy.
.P The Seaward Defence Force and the Royal Navy Volunteer Reserve (South Africa) became the South African Naval Force in August 1942. Over 10,000 South Africans served during the Second World War. Later in the war the South Africans took delivery of three Loch-class frigates for anti-submarine duty. Around 3,000 sailors fought and died in Royal Navy ships, including the aircraft carrier Hermes, the battleship Barham, and the cruisers Gloucester, Neptune, Cornwall, and Dorsetshire.
.P The number of South Africans who volunteered for the armed forces is difficult to get accurate figures for, but it is believed that there were around 335,000 volunteers, of which 12,046 were killed.

< Message edited by Centuur -- 10/20/2013 2:14:27 PM >


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Post #: 2372
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/20/2013 2:16:01 PM   
warspite1


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Good catch thanks Centuur

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Post #: 2373
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/21/2013 6:29:18 PM   
warspite1


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Guys we must have some Aussies here - Neilster for one. I really could do with some info on the Aussie economy in WWII - just high level stuff on industry and production would be good please.

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 2374
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/22/2013 4:13:23 PM   
Neilster


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I should be able to help with that. It's a bit late here now. I have some excellent books on that stuff. I'll get back to you shortly.

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 2375
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/22/2013 9:02:51 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

I should be able to help with that. It's a bit late here now. I have some excellent books on that stuff. I'll get back to you shortly.

Cheers, Neilster

warspite1

Thanks mate - that would be appreciated. I would like to get the Canadians, Aussies, Kiwis and South Africans finished before release.

Kiwis done, Saffers almost there, Aussies started and Canadians - don't know, I did a few back in 2008 - probably need re-writing though....


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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 2376
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/23/2013 8:08:34 AM   
Neilster


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1. Internal communications were poor. To reach NW Australia from the East or South required an aircraft or ship.

2. Most of the population of 7 million was concentrated in the SE.

3. The economy was primarily agricultural and although its industry was advanced for the Pacific region it was ill suited to the needs of modern war production. Great efforts were made to rectify this, however, and Australia became an important source of useful goods like canteens, mess kits and spare parts as well as some weapons. Australia also designed the excellent Sentinel tank but by the time is was to be put into production there were ample supplies of Shermans available.

4. Australia's major economic contribution to the Pacific Theatre was as a source of food.

5. Excluding the Soviet Union, Australia was perhaps the most militarised of the Allied powers. The economy was rigidly centralised and government control over people's lives reached extraordinary proportions. Both sexes were subject to conscription for military and labour service. Nearly 900,000 Australians served, including 40,000 women (nearly 14% of the population). Over 500,000 were sent overseas. About 27,100 personal died. 8,000 of those died as prisoners of the Japanese.

6. The bombing of several Northern Australian cities and the perceived threat of Japanese invasion led the government to plan a scorched earth defence with a retreat to the SE of the continent.

Source: The Pacific War Encyclopedia by James F. Dunnigan & Albert A. Nofi

And a lot of the above is virtually word for word from that so it may require re-jigging if that is required.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2377
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/23/2013 8:01:38 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

1. Internal communications were poor. To reach NW Australia from the East or South required an aircraft or ship.

2. Most of the population of 7 million was concentrated in the SE.

3. The economy was primarily agricultural and although its industry was advanced for the Pacific region it was ill suited to the needs of modern war production. Great efforts were made to rectify this, however, and Australia became an important source of useful goods like canteens, mess kits and spare parts as well as some weapons. Australia also designed the excellent Sentinel tank but by the time is was to be put into production there were ample supplies of Shermans available.

4. Australia's major economic contribution to the Pacific Theatre was as a source of food.

5. Excluding the Soviet Union, Australia was perhaps the most militarised of the Allied powers. The economy was rigidly centralised and government control over people's lives reached extraordinary proportions. Both sexes were subject to conscription for military and labour service. Nearly 900,000 Australians served, including 40,000 women (nearly 14% of the population). Over 500,000 were sent overseas. About 27,100 personal died. 8,000 of those died as prisoners of the Japanese.

6. The bombing of several Northern Australian cities and the perceived threat of Japanese invasion led the government to plan a scorched earth defence with a retreat to the SE of the continent.

Source: The Pacific War Encyclopedia by James F. Dunnigan & Albert A. Nofi

And a lot of the above is virtually word for word from that so it may require re-jigging if that is required.

Cheers, Neilster

warspite1

Thank-you.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 2378
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/26/2013 10:59:18 AM   
warspite1


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Here is the Australian Sydney Militia Counter

[2003] [Australian Sydney Militia - by Robert Jenkins]
.P "Fellow Australians, it is my melancholy duty to inform you officially, that in consequence of a persistence by Germany in her invasion of Poland, Great Britain has declared war upon her and that, as a result, Australia is also at war. No harder task can fall to the lot of a democratic leader than to make such an announcement". So said Australian Prime Minister Robert Menzies on the 3rd September 1939.
.P The write-up for this counter honours the men and women of Australia who were quick to enter what was then a European war, standing shoulder to shoulder with the "mother country", the United Kingdom.
.P At the outbreak of war the population of Australia was around 7,000,000. Like the other dominions, the economy was not highly industrialised, its main economic
strength coming from its raw materials and agriculture. However, efforts to create an industrial sector had begun between the wars and this policy bore fruit on a limited scale during World War II.
.P In 1939 the Australian Army numbered 80,000 men; most of whom were members of the Australian Army Reserve or Militia (a 3,000-strong full time force also existed). At the outbreak of war the government announced it was to create an army for overseas service. This was named the Second Australian Imperial Force (AIF) - the First AIF had fought in World War I.
.P The AIF was a volunteer force, with many men transferring from the Militia to the AIF. Conscription was put into place to keep the Militia numbers up to the required level, to ensure adequate defence of the homeland and to provide trained replacements for the AIF. A number of divisions were formed during the war:
.B 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th Infantry Divisions, These four divisions made up the 2nd AIF (see Australian 2nd Corps Counter).
.B 3rd, 5th and 11th Infantry Divisions were Militia formations. These units fought in the Pacific Campaign (see Australian Territorials Counter 2004).
.B 1st, 2nd, 4th, 10th and 12th Infantry Divisions. These were also Militia formations and never served outside of Australia (see Australian Territorials Counter 2005).
.B 1st and 3rd Armoured Divisions. These units never fought as complete armoured divisions (see 4th Mechanised Corps Counter).
.P After years of neglect through a lack of cash, the Royal Australian Navy (RAN) in September 1939 consisted of two county-class heavy cruisers (Canberra and Australia), three light cruisers (Sydney, Perth and Hobart), a WWI-vintage light cruiser (Adelaide), five destroyers (Stuart, Vampire, Vendetta, Voyager and Waterhen) and two sloops (Swan and Yarra). These ships were to give excellentservice to the Allied cause in both the European and Pacific theatres, although sadly at significant cost. The RAN suffered a number of ship losses, resulting in the deaths of 2,170 men out of the 370,000 that served during the war.
.P At the outbreak of war, the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) contained just ten squadrons and was equipped with largely obsolete aircraft. This situation was soon remedied and the RAAF began to grow fast. Australian pilots served both in their own air force and with British and other Commonwealth units. Twenty-one Australians fought in the Battle of Britain and two-thirds were killed. By the end of the war, the RAAF had grown to be the fourth largest in the world with over 70
squadrons. 215,000 men and women served with the RAAF and of these, just under 6,500 were killed.
.P By the end of the war around 1,000,000 had joined the colours and 575,000 of those fought overseas. Just over 27,000 Australians were killed.
.P Unlike the other dominions of the Commonwealth, Australia herself came under attack during the war; the Japanese launched a bombing raid on the port of Darwin in February 1942, causing a number of civilian casualties. Japanese midget submarines also attacked Sydney harbour later that year - although the attack was a failure. The populace were also subjected to rationing.
.P For a country with a relatively small population of 7,000,000, Australia pulled her weight and more in ensuring Allied victory.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/26/2013 11:02:05 AM >


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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2379
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/26/2013 1:45:47 PM   
Neilster


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quote:

excellentservice


Problem here.

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 2380
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/27/2013 1:40:07 PM   
warspite1


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Here is the 2nd Australian Infantry Corps

[2001] [Australian 2nd Infantry - by Robert Jenkins]
.P This counter represents the infantry divisions of the 2nd Australian Imperial Force (AIF).
.P The AIF was an all-volunteer force, raised at the time of the Australian declaration of war on Germany in September 1939. It was designed to create an army to fight overseas and was commanded by Lieutenant-General Thomas Blamey.
.P The units that would contain the 6th and 7th Infantry Divisions were sent to the Middle East to begin forming in early 1940 and the 6th Division was ready, although lacking some elements, by mid-December. At this time the 6th Division was commanded by Lieutenant-General Iven Mackay.
.P That month the British launched Operation Compass, an attack on the Italian forces that had crossed over the Libyan border into Egypt the previous September. The Australians joined the attack three days into the operation, replacing the 4th Indian Division, and units of the 6th Division were key in taking the Italian strongholds of Bardia and Tobruk. Thereafter the division kept up its harassment, along the coast, of the retreating Italians while British armour raced across the
desert to cut the enemy off. Operation Compass was a stunning victory for the Commonwealth forces.
.P Having almost pushed the Italians out of North Africa, the British then decided that it would be more important to assist the Greeks in their struggle with the Italians than finish the job in Libya. A woefully inadequate force was sent to Greece in March 1941, consisting of the 6th Division, the 2nd New Zealand Division, a British armoured brigade and support units. The following month the Germans launched their own invasion of Greece and the small Commonwealth force was quickly pushed back; evacuation became the only option.
.P Much of the 6th Division was returned to Egypt to rest and refit, but the 19th Brigade, reinforced with units drawn from the rest of the division, was sent to defend the island of Crete. However, in May the Germans launched an audacious airborne assault on the island and, having taken key airfields, were able to reinforce their paratroopers. Another Allied evacuation soon began.
.P Whilst this was taking place, the Germans had taken advantage of British weakness in the desert. Lieutenant-General Erwin Rommel and a small, but powerful force was landed at Tripoli and in March 1941 began an offensive to push the British out of Libya. This attack almost succeeded, but the 9th Australian Division (which had spent late 1940 in the United Kingdom guarding against the threat of invasion) together with the 18th Brigade from 7th Division, had been sent to hold the port of Tobruk to delay the German advance. And they did.....
.P What was supposed to be a delaying action turned into an epic siege that lasted until November 1941 when the siege was lifted following the British Operation Crusader offensive. By then it had been agreed that the Australians would be evacuated by sea back to Egypt and replaced with British and Polish formations. The Australians, commanded by Lieutenant-General Leslie Morshead, had withstood numerous attacks during the siege but stubbornly refused to yield to the Axis forces. Australia's first Victoria Cross of the war (the highest award for gallantry in the face of the enemy that can be won by men and women of the British and Commonwealth armed forces) was won during this siege - Corporal John Edmonson winning the award posthumously for bravery exhibited during a German attack in April.
.P With 18th Brigade performing heroics in Tobruk, the rest of the division was ordered to Syria in June. The Vichy authorities allowed Axis aircraft to refuel in Syria to assist their support of the Iraqi rebels fighting the British. The Commonwealth forces, including two Free French brigades, took just over a month to quell the Vichy forces and bring them to the peace table. During this operation, the 7th Division, commanded by Major-General Arthur Allen, won its first Victoria Cross of the war; Lieutenant Roden Cutler was the recipient for his bravery at the Battle of Merdjayoun. His award was followed by a similar medal for Private Jim Gordon the following month.
.P With the Japanese entering the war in December 1941 it was decided to return the 6th and 7th Divisions to Australia for the defence of the home country. It was agreed that the 9th Division would remain in the Middle East. Two brigades of the 6th Division were sent to Ceylon until July 1942 but the remainder of the divisions returned to Australia for rest and refit.
.P By the time these units had returned to Australia, the fourth division of the original 2nd AIF had already been destroyed. Two brigades of the 8th Division, commanded by Lieutenant-General Gordon Bennett, were sent to Malaya, while the battalions of the third brigade were deployed in defence of the islands of Ambon, Timor and at Rabaul on New Britain.
.P The fall of Malaya and Singapore in February 1941 was one of the most painful episodes in the history of the British Army. Despite the bravery of men such as 8th Division's Charles Anderson, who won the Victoria Cross during the Battle of Muar, the loss of Malaya and Singapore could not be stopped. Following their victory, the Japanese steamroller swept through the Dutch East Indies and a host of Pacific islands. The Australian forces at Ambon, Timor and Rabaul were amongst the casualties of this seemingly unstoppable force.
.P Back in the North African desert, the 9th Division recovered from its defence of Tobruk and was stationed in Syria briefly before being brought back into the fronttline following Rommel's great victory at Gazala, a victory that had seen the Axis forces finally take Tobruk and push the British back to the Egyptian border.
.P A series of battles were fought between July and October; the First Battle of El-Alamein and Alam Halfa were attempts by Rommel to finally break through to the Suez Canal and eject the British from Egypt. However, both of these attacks were repulsed, with the 9th Division in the forefront of these battles. During the First El-Alamein, Private Arthur Gurney won the VC at Tel-el-Tisa on the 22nd July.
.P These two battles had blunted Rommel's Panzer spearhead and his dream of entering Cairo was effectively gone. However, the 8th Army still had to beat Rommel and eject the Axis forces from Egypt and then North Africa. The first of these goals was achieved thanks to the 2nd Battle of El-Alamein in October 1942. Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery's Australian, British, Indian, New Zealand and South African forces (together with two Free French Brigades and a Greek Brigade) began
the battle on the 23rd October. Once again the dependable Australians were given a key role in the battle, occupying the most northerly of the 8th Army's positions; it was in the north that Montgomery concentrated his attack. Two more Victoria Crosses were won by the Australians in this battle - Private Percy Gratwick was killed on the 26th October during an attack on Miteiriya Ridge and Sergeant William Kibby won his award, also posthumously, a week later. Kibby's award recognised his actions that entire week, during which he exhibited the utmost bravery.
.P Before the battle was won and the Axis forces sent into headlong retreat, there were two more Victoria Crosses for the 9th Division, evidencing once more their bravery and commitment to the battle.
.P In early 1943 the 9th Division was transferred to the Pacific. There is no suitable write-up for the "what-if" 1st Motorised Corps Counter and so the story of the 6th, 7th and 9th Divisions in the Pacific is continued on that counter, numbered 2007.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/27/2013 1:44:23 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 2381
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/28/2013 2:04:42 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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Somewhat misleading, as you would expect a general source and a non-Australian one at that.

Yes, the Australian economy was somewhat limited ... but not to the extent implied ... we produced our own iron and steel and had a well developed manufacturing sector that was, because our population was small, small in relative terms.

It was well developed enough, for example, to produce 63 Bathurst Class Corvettes for the RAN, RN and RInN, 3 DDs for the Navy.

For the Army - 400k SMLE Rifles, 11k Vickers MG, 1560 2pdr ATG, 900 6pdr ATG, 128 17pdr ATG, 1905 25pdr Field Gun, 219 25pdr (Short) Field Gun, 290 40mm AA, 497 3.7" AA, 45k Owen SMG, 20k Austen SMG, 2000 2" Mortars, 3000 3" Mortars, 300 4.2" Mortars, 4983 MG Carriers (tracked open top small APCs), 65 Sentinel Tanks, 238 Rover Armoured Cars, 245 Dingo Scout Cars.

For the RAAF - 700 Beauforts, 329 Beaufighters ("Whispering Death"). 717 Wirraways (Light Bomber/Ground Attack), 200 Wacketts, 250 Boomerang Fighters, 18 Mustangs, 1070 Tiger Moth trainers, 87 De Havilland Dragon, 115 Mosquito.

A big part of the problem was that Australian manufacturing was not designed to produce a lot of these things *locally* ... it wasn't that they couldn't, for example, produce motor vehicles, it was that it wasn't *economic* before the war ... cheaper to buy them from the US or UK and import them as those two had economies of scale that we couldn't (and still can't) hope to achieve.

Just like the US had to produce Grant tanks with a 75mm sponson gun and tiny turret because pre-war US industry couldn't cast a larger turret until much later.

The US Armed forces also made considerable local orders with manufacturing firms, spares for all sorts of mechanical equipment, uniforms, canned food (Aussie canned rations were preferred to US ones, and were widely traded for ... US rations tended to go rancid in the can in the tropics, Aussie rations were specially designed for tropical conditions and didn't) and etc. etc.

But to say that the main contribution was agricultural produce is ... misleading ... we punched well in our weight class, but, of course, compared to any of the major powers we were out of our league (and still are).

Phil



< Message edited by aspqrz -- 10/28/2013 2:05:45 AM >


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Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 2382
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/28/2013 3:41:44 AM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

Somewhat misleading, as you would expect a general source and a non-Australian one at that.

Yes, the Australian economy was somewhat limited ... but not to the extent implied ... we produced our own iron and steel and had a well developed manufacturing sector that was, because our population was small, small in relative terms.

It was well developed enough, for example, to produce 63 Bathurst Class Corvettes for the RAN, RN and RInN, 3 DDs for the Navy.

For the Army - 400k SMLE Rifles, 11k Vickers MG, 1560 2pdr ATG, 900 6pdr ATG, 128 17pdr ATG, 1905 25pdr Field Gun, 219 25pdr (Short) Field Gun, 290 40mm AA, 497 3.7" AA, 45k Owen SMG, 20k Austen SMG, 2000 2" Mortars, 3000 3" Mortars, 300 4.2" Mortars, 4983 MG Carriers (tracked open top small APCs), 65 Sentinel Tanks, 238 Rover Armoured Cars, 245 Dingo Scout Cars.

For the RAAF - 700 Beauforts, 329 Beaufighters ("Whispering Death"). 717 Wirraways (Light Bomber/Ground Attack), 200 Wacketts, 250 Boomerang Fighters, 18 Mustangs, 1070 Tiger Moth trainers, 87 De Havilland Dragon, 115 Mosquito.

A big part of the problem was that Australian manufacturing was not designed to produce a lot of these things *locally* ... it wasn't that they couldn't, for example, produce motor vehicles, it was that it wasn't *economic* before the war ... cheaper to buy them from the US or UK and import them as those two had economies of scale that we couldn't (and still can't) hope to achieve.

Just like the US had to produce Grant tanks with a 75mm sponson gun and tiny turret because pre-war US industry couldn't cast a larger turret until much later.

The US Armed forces also made considerable local orders with manufacturing firms, spares for all sorts of mechanical equipment, uniforms, canned food (Aussie canned rations were preferred to US ones, and were widely traded for ... US rations tended to go rancid in the can in the tropics, Aussie rations were specially designed for tropical conditions and didn't) and etc. etc.

But to say that the main contribution was agricultural produce is ... misleading ... we punched well in our weight class, but, of course, compared to any of the major powers we were out of our league (and still are).

Phil



Fair enough. I'm happy to boost it a bit. The only thing I'd say is apparently Americans weren't keen on mutton and the types of vegetables in our rations because they weren't used to them but if as you say, they tended not to go off, then they would probably be preferable.

Also, it's difficult to generalise because a lot of things changed over the course of the Pacific War.

Cheers, Neilster

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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/28/2013 4:38:18 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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Fortuitously, Sir C. Stanton Hicks, Professor of Human Physiology and Pharmacology at Adelaide University, was put in charge of all military catering in the 4th Military District (Adelaide), noted the deficiencies of the pre-Catering Corps organisation, and fought, successfully, not only to have a Catering Corps set up, but also to perform scientific testing of rations for use in the field.

The typical Bully Beef and Hardtack issued up till then worked well enough in European (and Australian, and even North African) conditions, but, in the tropics, the fat (and there was a lot of it, probably even more than there is today in the nearest equivalent, tinned corned beef) tended to go rancid and liquid in the can ... so what you got when you opened the rations was inedible and odiferous.

After some fairly basic research, something no-one else seems to have ever done to that point (even in the US Army, so it seems), Stanton Hicks came up with a variety of tinned and packaged rations that would be survivable in tropical conditions long enough to reach the troops in the field in an edible state ... this, from memory, included things like tinned processed cheese, tinned fish, tinned meat (related to, but of an improved recipe, to the older Bully Beef), Hard Sweets (candies to any North Americans), tinned fruit (always a favourite with troops, right through to when I was in the Army Reserve and ate Individual Rations, the post WW2, post Vietnam equivalent ... always preferred to the alternative which included, of all things, supposedly hard toffee [always a soggy and inedible mess even in an Australian summer) and some sort of peanut brittle, which, though it didn't go soggy, sucked up water in your system, or seemed to, whereas the fruit juice in the tinned fruit didn't), hard (but sweet and fat filled for the calories) biscuits (not as hard as hard tack), condensed milk (in tins or, later, zinc tubes)

When the first American troops arrived, although, I believe, they'd had a catering corps and better field rations US and European conditions for a hell of a lot longer than we had, they evidently never really caught on to the differences between the tropics and home, as far as rations were concerned. They were so far behind the 8-Ball that, according to Hicks in his bio ("Who called the cook a bastard") they offered him a Brigadier's commission (he was a Lt. Col. eventually in the Australian Army) and US citizenship if he'd only come over to run *their* rationing research. He refused (of course).

From what I understand, it was normal for US troops to offer 2:1 US to Australian rations in New Guinea, even in the rear areas, and they did anything they could do to get Australian rations when in the field ... even after they managed to get their own rations more or less up to speed. Just like I understand that US troops in NATO typically offer 2:1 MREs for French RCIRs today ... evidently even French military cuisine is better than anything the Yanks can manage!

As for the rest, we were really small potatoes compared to the US, even the 15% of their war effort that they directed to the Pacific, hell, even compared to Japan ... but we pulled our weight ... just don't want our efforts to be discounted completely

Phil

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Post #: 2384
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/28/2013 5:01:08 AM   
Neilster


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After RAAF combat exercises there were always heaps of spare ration packs around. I used to score them because they were great for camping...and free. Some people didn't like them but I thought they were excellent.

And they were developed here in Tassie, I believe

Cheers, Neilster

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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 1/24/2014 4:35:09 AM   
michaelbaldur


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just read some write ups, and there are contradictory information ... in the German 7th FallschirmjÃger Division and the 5 airland division...

how can the 7th FallschirmjÃger Division be used in 1940 if it was first formed in 1944 ...

< Message edited by michaelbaldur -- 1/24/2014 5:35:29 AM >


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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 1/24/2014 6:13:03 AM   
paulderynck


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My guess is that it was in the force pool in 1938 but the real Germans didn't build it 'til '44.

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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 1/24/2014 6:23:02 AM   
michaelbaldur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

My guess is that it was in the force pool in 1938 but the real Germans didn't build it 'til '44.


øhh what ...

both units were active at the start of the war, but the write up say something else

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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 1/24/2014 12:04:30 PM   
Extraneous

 

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Fallschirmjäger - Division Erdmann (AKA 7. Fallschirmjäger-Division) October 9,1944 - May 8,1945

5. Fallschirmjäger Division May 1944 - March 1945

< Message edited by Extraneous -- 1/24/2014 1:05:55 PM >


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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 1/24/2014 11:32:50 PM   
brian brian

 

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The first German paratrooper unit was the 7th Air Division (part of the Luftwaffe, not the Army), which was the designation until after Crete. The Fallschirmjaeger name for various Luftwaffe infantry units was used later.

The Germans also created an Air Landing Division (part of the Army), though I think the 22nd would be the best numerical designation for the division used in Holland in the spring of 1940.

Those 2 divisions would form the basis for the PARA corps unit that arrives as a German reinforcement in M/A 40.


For the operation in Crete, the 5th Mountain Division was air lifted to the island, and is probably the basis for the air-landing division counter in the game.

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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 1/25/2014 1:52:07 AM   
michaelbaldur


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no matter what the real history was, and what unit history you write about.

the write ups counterdict each other

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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 1/25/2014 2:21:31 AM   
Extraneous

 

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7. Flieger - Division (7th Flying (Parachute) Division September 1, 1938 - April 1943

Becomes 1. Fallschirmjäger - Division April 1943.



5. Gebirgs-Division (5th Mountain Division)

Was not realy an Air Landing Division.




< Message edited by Extraneous -- 1/25/2014 3:33:08 AM >


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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 4/19/2014 11:18:42 AM   
warspite1


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Inspired by the Orange counters created by WarHunter , I am re-doing the Dutch naval write-ups. Does anyone know a definitive answer on what Eendracht would have been named after. The most likely answer I can find is that it means Unity and that word appears in the motto of the United Provinces???

Any assistance would be gratefully received.

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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 4/19/2014 11:41:47 AM   
AxelNL


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Inspired by the Orange counters created by WarHunter , I am re-doing the Dutch naval write-ups. Does anyone know a definitive answer on what Eendracht would have been named after. The most likely answer I can find is that it means Unity and that word appears in the motto of the United Provinces???

Any assistance would be gratefully received.


From wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eendracht_%281615_ship%29

"Its name in Dutch literally means "concord", but is also translated as "unity" or "union", and was a common name given to Dutch ships of the period, from the motto of the Republic: Concordia res parvae crescunt."

I will scout a bit further - but I think it probably is a same type of lineage as the "Entreprise". When there is a good name, and subsequent ships honour the name, there will be a successor bearing the same name.

Edit: In https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eendracht_%28disambiguation%29 you can see that the above ship might be from the same town as Centuur. And later another ship bearing that name was the Flagship after the first Anglo-Dutch war.

Edit2: can't find more than this:"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_De_Zeven_Provinci%C3%ABn_%28C802%29

< Message edited by AxelNL -- 4/19/2014 12:50:53 PM >

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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 4/19/2014 12:48:57 PM   
Centuur


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Well. Lex, you aren't exactly right here... There were more ships called "Eendracht"... This was indeed because of the Dutch Republic's Motto.

The one used in the Dutch navy comes from the first "Eendracht" which was in the fleet which was to sail around the world (1600), captained by Olivier van Noort. He sailed with four ships (one was the "Eendracht").

The name was considered to be of utmost importance, apparently, because, when the "Eendracht" was badly damaged before the Brazilian coast, they had to set fire to the ship. Than they renamed another ship "De Hoop" into "Eendracht". On the way around the world, they looted a lot of Spanish and Portuguese ships...

The "Frederik Hendrik" got separated around Cape Hoorn from the fleet, and stranded at Ternate.

In the Pacific the two remaining ships lost masts and sails in a storm. After repairs they got into the Manilly Bay and started to blokkade it, hoping to catch a Spanish Galleon. The Spanish reacted and after a heroic fight, the "Eendracht" was lost to the Spanish, while the "Mauritius" escaped capture and finally returned to the Netherlands around the Cape of Good Hope

After his travels, the Dutch East Indies Company was formed, because of the highly profitable journey that it apparently was (even with the loss of almost 200 man and three ships)...

A small detail: the Spanish treated any Dutch sailor as pirates, those days, since the Dutch Republic was a rebel province in their eyes...

He described his voyage in the book: "Beschrijvinghe vande voyagie om de geheelen wereldt Cloot ghedaen". My father, who was a historian, had a copy of this book in his possession and I read it.



< Message edited by Centuur -- 4/19/2014 1:59:17 PM >


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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 4/19/2014 7:18:25 PM   
warspite1


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Here is the first of the revised Dutch write-ups:

[4746 De Ruyter]

.B Engine(s) output: 66,000 shp
.B Top Speed: 32 knots
.B Main armament: 7 x 5.9-inch (150mm), 10 x 40mm guns
.B Displacement (Full Load): 7,548 tons
.B Thickest armour: 2-inch (Belt), 1.2-inch (Deck), 1.2-inch (Turrets)

.P The Dutch Navy’s principal role prior to the outbreak of the Second World War was the protection of her main overseas possession, the Dutch East Indies (NEI). The NEI (modern day Indonesia) provided the Netherlands with oil and other raw materials to meet not only her own requirements, but also provided her with vital export income.

.P In 1930, to counter the growing threat posed by the Japanese to this important colony, the Dutch considered that a force of three cruisers, twelve destroyers and eighteen submarines was the minimum requirement for the NEI station. With the cancellation of the cruiser Celebes after the end of World War I, the Dutch required a third cruiser to complement the cruisers Java and Sumatra already on station.

.P The design chosen was typical of so many warships constructed during the years between the two world wars. There was neither the money available nor the political will for the construction of expensive warships and the result was a cruiser that would prove woefully inadequate when war came a decade later.

.P The cruiser, named De Ruyter, was finally ordered in 1932 and laid down a year later. She was launched in 1935 and completed in October 1936.

.P She was to have been limited to just 5,250 tons (similar to the British Arethusas – themselves an experiment in building the smallest practical cruiser) although during the construction phase there was some fiscal relaxation allowed and she eventually weighed in at 6,000 tons (standard).
.P The extra weight allowed an increase in length and an additional, single, superfiring 5.9-inch "B" turret to add to the three twin 5.9-inch guns originally envisaged. Although she benefitted from a modern fire control system, the main armament was inadequate when compared with her Japanese contemporaries.

.P De Ruyter’s anti-aircraft (AA) armament of five, twin 40mm bofors was oddly arranged with all five mounts being concentrated aft. This arrangement not only gave limited arcs of fire but also meant the entire AA defence could be wiped out with one bomb or shell hit.

.P As part of the cost saving exercise, De Ruyter was not fitted with torpedoes tubes. She was given a catapult and could carry up to two aircraft.

.P Her top speed was 32 knots and she was fitted with an overload feature that could increase her speed to 33.5 knots for short periods.

.P Her defensive armour consisted of a belt that ranged from 1.2 to 2-inches thick, with 1.2-inch bulkheads and a protective deck of similar thickness.

.P De Ruyter was named after Michiel de Ruyter, arguably Holland’s most well known admiral, famous for his exploits during the Anglo-Dutch wars of the 17th Century.

.P Upon commissioning into the Dutch Navy, De Ruyter sailed almost immediately for the Far East where she arrived in March 1937.

.P When Holland was defeated by the Germans in May 1940, Dutch shipping in European waters was placed under the control of the Admiralty, although this did not apply to the forces guarding the NEI and the naval forces there continued operating under Dutch control.

.P In response to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and Malaya in December 1941, the Dutch declared war on Japan the following day. De Ruyter and other Dutch ships initially assisted the passage of British convoys to Malaya and Singapore – the northern end of the “Malay Barrier”.

.P The Allied defences in Malaya and the Philippines quickly unwound and important, irreplaceable, assets were lost – two Royal Navy capital ships were lost off the Malayan coast, and the bulk of the United States Far East Air Force was destroyed on the ground in the Philippines.

.P Following this calamitous start to the war with Japan, the remaining American, British, Dutch and Australian assets were brought together under "ABDA" command on the 10th January 1942. The naval component was designated ABDAFLOAT and was commanded by Admiral Thomas Hart (USN) with the Royal Navy’s Rear-Admiral Arthur Palliser as his Chief of Staff (see HNLMS Sumatra for further detail on the Dutch Navy in the Far East).

.P On the 1st February 1942 Admiral Hart ordered the formation of the ABDA Combined Striking Force. This force would be used to try and intercept and destroy Japanese invasion convoys. The Dutchman, Rear-Admiral Karel Doorman was placed in command of the task force and this first went into action on the 4th February 1942. Doorman led a mixed US/Dutch force that, in addition to De Ruyter, consisted of the cruisers HNLMS Tromp, USS Houston, and USS Marblehead; three Dutch destroyers, Banckert, Piet Hein and Van Ghent; and four US destroyers, Barker, Bulmer, Edwards and Stewart.

.P Doorman’s task was to intercept enemy shipping seen heading toward Balikpapan on the island of Borneo. Unfortunately, the Allied task force never got anywhere near the enemy ships as they were spotted en route by Japanese aircraft and attacked in force. The two US cruisers were badly damaged – Marblehead sufficiently so that she had to be withdrawn from the theatre, and Houston lost the use of one of her rear turrets. Without air cover, Doorman withdrew.

.P With Singapore about to fall, the next target on the Japanese list was the island of Sumatra. Doorman set sail on the 14th February, his two Dutch cruisers being joined by HNLMS Java, HMS Exeter and HMAS Hobart to replace the damaged US ships. The Dutch destroyer Kortenaer and the US destroyers Parrott and Pillsbury joined the seven destroyers that had taken part in the earlier, ill-fated operation. Once again however, the Allied vessels failed to get anywhere near the enemy convoy before being attacked by aircraft. Even worse, before even coming into contact with the enemy, in the early hours of the 15th, the Van Ghent ran aground and had to be scuttled. It was not long before the Doorman’s Striking Force was found by land based and carrier based aircraft. This time there was no major damage to any of Doorman’s ships, but there was plenty of near misses. Doorman felt he had no choice but to retreat once more.

.P De Ruyter’s next engagement came three days later in what became known as the Battle of the Badung Strait. Predictably and depressingly, this engagement ended in another defeat for the Allies and further losses of irreplaceable ships (see HNLMS Tromp).

.P De Ruyter’s final battle came on the 27th February 1942; the Battle of the Java Sea. With the Japanese having rolled up the rest of the NEI, their last stop was Java itself. Doorman commandeered every ship available and for this operation he had the heavy cruisers Exeter and the still damaged Houston; the light cruisers De Ruyter, Java and HMAS Perth; three British destroyers, Electra, Jupiter and Encounter; two Dutch destroyers, Kortenaer and Witte de With; and four US destroyers, Edwards, Alden, Ford and Jones.

.P Having taken each of the Dutch-owned islands one by one and effectively surrounded Java, for this final piece in the NEI jigsaw, the Japanese intended to conquer the island by landing at both the western and the eastern ends of Java and sealing the capital Batavia in a pincer.

.P Admiral Doorman and his force of American, British, Dutch and Australian ships was ordered by Vice-Admiral Conrad Helfrich (who had replaced Hart as Commander of ABDAFLOAT the previous month) to destroy the enemy convoy approaching toward the eastern end of the island.

.P This convoy, containing 41 transport vessels carrying the 48th Infantry Division, had for its protection the following units: The 4th Destroyer Flotilla of six destroyers, commanded by Rear-Admiral Shoji Nishimura in the light cruiser Naka; the 2nd Destroyer Flotilla of four destroyers, commanded by Rear-Admiral Raizo Tanaka in the light cruiser Jintsu and last but not least, the two heavy cruisers (Nachi and Haguro) and four destroyers of the 5th Cruiser Squadron, commanded by Rear-Admiral Takeo Takagi.

.P Bizarrely while the western convoy was provided the protection of a carrier and four heavy cruisers, the eastern convoy was not only more lightly defended, but initially Takagi was content to cover the convoy with his heavy cruisers from 200 miles astern. This was unknown to Doorman however as he had ordered the fleet’s floatplanes to be landed before sailing.

.P Doorman’s orders were simply to destroy the convoy that was known to be heading for eastern Java. And so, in the afternoon of the 27th February, his multi-national force found themselves sailing northwest to seek out the enemy ships. Takagi had the benefit of his floatplanes for reconnaissance, and upon hearing of the approaching enemy fleet he ordered the convoy to turn around and head north in order to close the gap between it and his heavy cruiser force. Luckily for the Japanese, by the time that the two fleets made contact, the heavy cruisers had managed to catch-up.

.P With their arrival the Japanese now had a decided advantage over the Allied fleet in all the important departments, just three of which were; the number of 8-inch guns - 20 vs 12, the number of torpedoes - 144 vs 100 (and 138 of these were the fearsome “Long Lance”) and the speed of the ships – 33 knots vs 26.

.P The battle began at 1616hrs with Jintsu firing on the Electra, and the two Japanese heavy cruisers soon joined in. Without waiting for Doorman’s order, HMS Exeter quickly opened up with her 8-inch guns and was accompanied soon after by those of the Houston. The Allied ships were deployed in three columns, the five cruisers in one column nearest the enemy, and then two columns of destroyers. The Japanese, with their superior speed, were soon threatening to cross the T of the Allied ships. Doorman ordered a turn to stop this happening, but in so doing it meant that the distance between the two fleets remained wider than it should have been – thus playing into the hands of the Japanese heavy cruisers.

.P Some twenty minutes into the battle, with neither side having scored a hit, Nishimura ordered Naka and her destroyers to launch a torpedo attack. From a range of around 15,000 yards, they fired 31 Long Lance torpedoes, with another 12 being fired from other vessels. While these weapons were in the water heading toward the Allied ships the battle was soon to turn even more in favour of the Japanese.

.P At 1708hrs the Exeter was on the receiving end of an unlucky shell hit from the Haguro. The shell landed in her boiler room and exploded, reducing her speed to barely double figures. The cruisers following were almost caught out by Exeter’s abrupt speed reduction and both Perth and Houston were lucky not to collide with the British cruiser – or each other. Doorman would have little choice but to order Exeter’s withdrawal and she was to leave the battle accompanied by the damaged Dutch destroyer Witte De With. The latter’s damage had been suffered at her own hand – one of her depth charges exploded under the ship after rolling off. While all this was happening the torpedoes, launched previously, were falling upon Doorman’s ships.

.P The torpedoes either missed, exploded prematurely or collided with each other - all that is except one. The destroyer Kortenaer was hit by a single torpedo which caused her to break in two and sink in less than two minutes.

.P Sensing blood, Takagi now ordered his ships to close the range and launch another torpedo attack. In response, at 1725hrs, Doorman ordered the British destroyers to launch a torpedo strike of their own. Unfortunately, during the attack the Electra had become separated from her fellow destroyers and found herself staring down the Jintsu and eight enemy destroyers. An entirely one-sided gun battle developed which could only ever have one outcome. The Electra, having damaged at least two enemy ships including the Jintsu, succumbed to a hail of shells and sank at around 1800hrs.

.P Fortunately the second Japanese torpedo attack had completely failed and Doorman now sought to take the opportunity to withdraw with the coming of darkness. It was now the turn of the four American destroyers to make their presence felt. Between 1817hrs and 1827hrs at maximum range, they launched 41 torpedoes at the 5th Cruiser Division. All torpedoes missed and the American ships made their way back to the rest of the fleet. Takagi, seeing the Allied ships withdrawing, turned his own ships north to re-group.

.P But Doorman’s orders were to destroy the convoy. He had no intention of withdrawing back to Java. At 1831hrs the Allied ships were ordered northeast – the plan was to try and get around the escorts and attack the convoy from behind. It was not long before contact was made however and an inconclusive firefight developed with the Jintsu and her destroyers that ended when the Japanese made ready to launch another torpedo strike. Both fleets withdrew once again.

.P At 2100hrs Doorman’s ships reached the coast of Java. From there, Doorman ordered his dwindling band of ships west to try once more to find the elusive convoy. The four US destroyers were not with them however. Having expended all their torpedoes they sensibly returned to Java. Also not with Doorman was the Encounter – which had gone to the assistance of Exeter and was now playing catch-up.

.P The little fleet, now reduced to five ships, suffering from battle fatigue and with a lack of ammunition becoming a problem, headed into the darkness; three of those ships would not return. In a bizarre incident, the next ship to be lost was Jupiter. She hit a mine at around 2130hrs and sank the following morning. The fleet were not in a minefield however – at least not an intentional one. It appears that the mine she struck was one of many that had been carelessly dumped by a Dutch minelaying vessel previously.

.P The remaining ships sped on and at 2315hrs contact was made with the enemy once more. The Haguro and the Nachi traded shells with the Allied ships before once more launching their deadly Long Lance torpedoes at 2322hrs. The Allied ships turned to comb the tracks but Java mis-judged her turn. At 2336hrs one of Nachi’s torpedoes found its target, and this was quickly followed by a second. A Magazine blew up and the elderly cruiser disappeared beneath the waves in less than fifteen minutes. There were only 19 survivors.

.P Worse was to follow. Four minutes after the Java was struck, De Ruyter was also hit, this time by one of Haguro’s torpedoes. The Dutch cruiser had successfully turned away from the first torpedoes but was still turning when those of Haguro arrived, and she turned straight into one of them. 345 officers and men died aboard De Ruyter including Doorman.

.P The Captain of HMAS Perth, Hector Waller, was now the senior officer left from the two remaining ships and, hopelessly out-numbered, short on fuel and ammunition, and with no idea where the convoy was, he ordered a withdrawal back to Java. For most of the surviving ABDA ships, death and destruction would not be far away.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/20/2014 11:00:01 AM >


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Post #: 2396
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 4/19/2014 8:04:10 PM   
AxelNL


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When the Dutch navy took over escort carrier Nairana and later HMS Venerable after WW2 they were named after Karel Doorman. Later the lead M-Class Frigate carried that name before being sold the Belgium. A fourth navy ship is soon named after him.

I had his son Joop Doorman as a university teacher at TUDelft. Besides ethics he also explained and proved Gödel's incompleteness theorems to us. I still remember the feeling of being able to follow the mathematics on the crayon board and actually fully understanding it.....he was a great teacher.

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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 4/20/2014 6:23:24 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AxelNL

When the Dutch navy took over escort carrier Nairana and later HMS Venerable after WW2 they were named after Karel Doorman. Later the lead M-Class Frigate carried that name before being sold the Belgium. A fourth navy ship is soon named after him.

I had his son Joop Doorman as a university teacher at TUDelft. Besides ethics he also explained and proved Gödel's incompleteness theorems to us. I still remember the feeling of being able to follow the mathematics on the crayon board and actually fully understanding it.....he was a great teacher.
warspite1

I think that Doorman has got an unfair press to be honest. The ABDA navy was on a hiding to nothing and everything that could go wrong seemed to go wrong in that campaign. They lost so many ships to stupid accidents for one thing.

Also Doorman and co just never got the breaks. The crass over-confidence, the incompetence and the hopelessly over complicated naval plans of the Japanese that characterised later battles and campaigns were in evidence during the battle for the Dutch East Indies, sadly and for a number of reasons, the ABDA forces were just never quite capable of taking advantage of these errors.

Yes Doorman made some mistakes, but he was a brave sailor



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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 4/20/2014 2:13:24 PM   
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Joined: 6/14/2008
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Since the game is in production I am no longer proof reading unit discriptions. Since the users can change the data files themselves.



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University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2399
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 4/20/2014 2:25:39 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
Okay no problem.

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2400
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