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RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/29/2013 4:14:48 PM

DSWargamer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

quote:

Likely will have the same laundry list of reasons I personally don't consider justifiable. [...] I make my life conform to my needs.

Get off that high horse, please and thank you. You don't get to decide for other people what are or aren't justifiable reasons for their game-playing preferences or constraints.

Must be a language barrier. I said "I don't personally consider justifiable". I NEVER said you will accept this without question.

I am just making it clear, your complaints might get no where with me.

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Post #: 31

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/29/2013 4:18:22 PM

DSWargamer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Get off that high horse, please and thank you. You don't get to decide for other people what are or aren't justifiable reasons for their game-playing preferences or constraints.

+1

Why do some folks insist on telling other folks how they can or cannot play with their toys?? It must really bother them that someone somewhere does something differently than they do. OMG!! Whatever.

Why are some of you such timid little schmucks, that anything I post sounds like a demand?

I sure hope you boys play the game better than you defend your arguments. Your petulant reactions sound more like hysterical crying. I expect that from children, not grown men.

_____________________________

I have too many too complicated wargames, and not enough sufficiently interested non wargamer friends.

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Post #: 32

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/29/2013 5:20:07 PM

pzgndr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
The 'Hell no, we won't buy' group because there is no AI may be (I do stress may) be those that never had to play these types of games in physical form, i.e. actual physical maps and counters, solitare if they wanted to play them at all. So for this group, not having an AI is a big deal.

It's time to get back on Numdydar's topic. Not having an AI at all with no intention of providing one IS a big deal, and Decision Games' decision to do this with War In Europe has probably restricted their sales. So be it. But Matrix has made the decision to provide an AI for MWiF, which is a plus for most customers who expect one regardless of whatever others feel about it.

Personally I look forward to having a computer opponent and I'm disappointed that I have to wait, but by the same token I don't fully understand the "Hell no, we won't buy [yet]" group. I've never even played the WiF boardgame, so regardless of having an AI or not it's going to take me time to learn the rules, learn the game mechanics, learn the game interface, etc. I already know how to play WWII grand strategy games and have done so versus myself, others and computer opponents, so it's no biggie to run MWiF through its paces and learning how to do what I want to do. I figure by the time I start getting comfortable with all that, Steve will have the AI upgrade ready to roll out. It's not like MWiF will be the only game I will play in my spare time, so I don't mind waiting a bit longer and using the time to learn the game. Solitaire is fine, been there done that.

(in reply to Numdydar)

Post #: 33

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/29/2013 5:48:55 PM

gridley

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I envy you guys who can play solitaire...I've tried before, just can't do it. I'll play a bit of solitaire to learn the interface, but that's about it. Then it's on to netplay.

(in reply to DSWargamer)

Post #: 34

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/29/2013 6:13:12 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gridley

I envy you guys who can play solitaire...

warspite1

Just used to it I guess - been playing with myself since I was a teenager....

....Avalon Hill's Bismarck got me started

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Post #: 35

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/29/2013 6:20:54 PM

captskillet

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quote:

been playing with myself since I was a teenager....

if you dont quit you're gonna go blind.

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Post #: 36

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/29/2013 6:20:55 PM

gridley

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: gridley

I envy you guys who can play solitaire...

warspite1

Just used to it I guess - been playing with myself since I was a teenager....

....Avalon Hill's Bismarck got me started

I knew this joke was coming...but as she said "I didn't think it would be so fast!"

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 37

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/29/2013 6:47:27 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gridley

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: gridley

I envy you guys who can play solitaire...

warspite1

Just used to it I guess - been playing with myself since I was a teenager....

....Avalon Hill's Bismarck got me started

I knew this joke was coming...but as she said "I didn't think it would be so fast!"

warspite1

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Post #: 38

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/29/2013 6:55:29 PM

Numdydar

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Yes once you learn to play by yourself, having others around does not seem that important

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Post #: 39

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/29/2013 7:05:34 PM

Aurelian

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I have the Vassal module for Red Star Rising, Just can't bring myself to play solitaire.

I set up Russia Beseiged, play a turn or two, get bored.

Rather have an AI for reasons I stated the last time we had this discussion.

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Post #: 40

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/29/2013 8:25:59 PM

brian brian

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I think, though, that in the 21st Century, with worldwide real-time connectivity down to an individual level, a need for solitaire gaming will be lessening to a huge degree. True, with World in Flames at least, there is required player interaction at many points even in the other player's "turn". So you have be in communication with the other player to play it, unlike older pbm or newer pbem.

But even if you work 3rd shift somewhere and face-to-face gaming is difficult to schedule, odds are good you might now be able to find an opponent on another continent who can play live when you can.

If you just don't want to play against another person and only want to play an AI, well that's an OK choice too. But the usual reasons for needing to play solitaire are lessening all the time.

As for no AI right now, I'm not sure it's been expressed, but basically with this product coming out now the way it is, it's like this: you can't build a comfortable home without a solid foundation. This first release is a solid foundation and indeed I believe letting thousands of players at it without an AI can only result in an improved AI when that day comes.

And I'll add another thought on what I was saying in the last AI thread, since only one is ever active at a time usually. The whole turn-based I-Go-You-Go system of "wargaming" is designed for paper based games and as far as simulation of military history goes, it is a straight playability fudge. I like the idea of AI systems playing my favorite turn-based wargames, sure. But to a certain extent, this is a waste of computing resources, and more explicitly, design resources. On paper, hidden movement, real-time time management, the communication of commander's orders, logistics management, and fog-of-war realities of military combat are all extra hard to simulate vs just simply giving the players total information that real commanders never had. Designing AI systems to play 20th century games seems like designing a box to hook your old BetaMax video-cassette player to an HDTV.

I hope wargame design moves forward, harnessing the capabilities of computers to increase realism, and I believe it is in game systems outside of this one. And I am OK with I-Go-You-Go at the grand strategic of WiF level in a basic sense, but as you move down the operational scale this becomes less true. I look forward to WiF:2020 where you can no longer see your opponent's production spiral and know only parts of where his reserves are building up, unless perhaps you spent extra resources on Intell and you get to more such information, by letting the computer keep your opponent from cheating rather than by having everything in plain sight at all times.

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Post #: 41

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/29/2013 10:55:29 PM

Mynok

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer

quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Get off that high horse, please and thank you. You don't get to decide for other people what are or aren't justifiable reasons for their game-playing preferences or constraints.

+1

Why do some folks insist on telling other folks how they can or cannot play with their toys?? It must really bother them that someone somewhere does something differently than they do. OMG!! Whatever.

Why are some of you such timid little schmucks, that anything I post sounds like a demand?

I sure hope you boys play the game better than you defend your arguments. Your petulant reactions sound more like hysterical crying. I expect that from children, not grown men.

Agreed. Anything said against AI is instantly considered anti-AI players. Wow. Hardly restricted to this game either. The violent wars on the WitP boards. Yikes.

And yes I will never play this game against any AI. You who want to have at it though meanwhile I will be enjoying the game. So pick yer poison.

< Message edited by Mynok -- 10/29/2013 10:56:29 PM >

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Post #: 42

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/30/2013 2:33:09 AM

composer99

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Oh, here was me thinking I was doing "good parenting" by taking the extra time to colour pictures with my son and read stories with him before bedtime every night. Courtesy of the funtime police, I now understand that that's an unjustifiable limitation on my ability to play wargames with other people, and that it's "petulant" to find funtime policing gussied up with thoughtless arrogance offensive. Apparently, expecting people to understand that they don't get to decide how others allocate their gaming time/space/resources is the same as being a stereotypical Internet teenage gamer - I'm so glad that I understand that now.

-----
More on topic, the obvious advantage of playing solitaire (or against an AI) is that you don't have to deal with jackass players, such as the stereotypical teen gamers from the above-linked Oatmeal comic (the likes of which I have personally encountered playing Blood Bowl and World of Warcraft).(*)

(*) Except I do, when I have to play against that Composer99 guy: he's a real jerk.

-----
With respect to brian brian's most recent remarks:

quote:

And I'll add another thought on what I was saying in the last AI thread, since only one is ever active at a time usually. The whole turn-based I-Go-You-Go system of "wargaming" is designed for paper based games and as far as simulation of military history goes, it is a straight playability fudge. I like the idea of AI systems playing my favorite turn-based wargames, sure. But to a certain extent, this is a waste of computing resources, and more explicitly, design resources. On paper, hidden movement, real-time time management, the communication of commander's orders, logistics management, and fog-of-war realities of military combat are all extra hard to simulate vs just simply giving the players total information that real commanders never had. Designing AI systems to play 20th century games seems like designing a box to hook your old BetaMax video-cassette player to an HDTV.

I hope wargame design moves forward, harnessing the capabilities of computers to increase realism, and I believe it is in game systems outside of this one. And I am OK with I-Go-You-Go at the grand strategic of WiF level in a basic sense, but as you move down the operational scale this becomes less true. I look forward to WiF:2020 where you can no longer see your opponent's production spiral and know only parts of where his reserves are building up, unless perhaps you spent extra resources on Intell and you get to more such information, by letting the computer keep your opponent from cheating rather than by having everything in plain sight at all times.

One possible direction I can see board-game-style computer games going is adopting more of a "we-go" turn style (e.g. as used in Birth of the Federation.) In, say, a future version of WiF, instead of taking it in alternating turns, players will issue commands to their forces which are then resolved simultaneously: conflict occurs when they interact in some fashion. WiF already comes close to incorporating this mechanic by requiring a great deal of out-of-turn player activity (e.g. deciding on naval or air interception), and indeed explicitly does so (albeit in a limited fashion) with the combat cards of the 3d10 combat table (a feature of one of the boardgame's expansion kits).

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Post #: 43

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/30/2013 3:58:02 AM

Numdydar

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Muliti-player Civ comes close to that in that all players can take their turns at the same time and when the turn ends, the turn resolves. Things are built, AI moves, etc.

You could even say most of Paradox's games already are like that since everyone, including the AI, are all doing thier turns and resolutions at the same time. While WitP does not allow turns to be entered at the same time, it does resolve all player actions at the same time. So in a land combat, both sides could assign an attack and both sides would attack when the turn resolves. So computer games already are or at least pretty close to what you describe.

However, with board games this is very difficult to accomplish. So as long as board games are being converted to digital, IGUG is going to remain pretty standard.

The two board games that stand out in this regard was Battle of Britian and Guadicanal. In Guadacanal all Japanese units could be hidden until contact was made with a Allied uint. Really took a lot longer to play like this but was amazing to play like that as it really showcase some of the difficults the US had in moving away from the coast. This was because if they ran into a hidden unit, it got a free attack with some bonuses.

In BfB you needed three people, one for each side and an umpire. The Germans would plot out their raids and then the umpire would tell the Allied player information on a per raid basis based on dice rolls and size of the raid. Needless to say, this greatly increased the tension for both sides

Just some ways some old school games tried to deal with the Godlike power players typically have when playing games.

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Post #: 44

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/30/2013 12:15:09 PM

Schnaufer

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Some people on this board can read minds and intentions, and if someone prefers to play against an AI ---- CRUCIFY THEM, THEY AREN'T A REAL WARGAMER !!!!
Good way to bring new folks into the fold.
Have a good one all, different strokes for different folks

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Post #: 45

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/30/2013 4:41:57 PM

Rasputitsa

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I haven't played board games since 'Panzer Blitz' and 'Panzer Leader', enjoyed 'Third Reich' at lot, including when it became available on PC. I have always played games with AI and don't expect ever to use PBEM, the people in my life deserve more and gaming is always a compromise, the AI is patiently waiting until needed, however long it takes. For some time now games have had multiple options and preferences, which allow settings for more varied and challenging games, many have the ability to mod and change features for more realism, but it's always a game however you play it.

The great advantage the AI has is that it can be set to do things human opponents would never do, the 1941 Soviets may stand and fight and the 1945 Germans will battle on till the bunker falls, thereby providing more realism, where most human players would sensibly give up.

As for the AI being dumb, how dumb was it to lose 250,000 men in Stalingrad, whilst defending the flanks with the weakest forces, then to lose 250,000 more in Tunisia. The orders issued from Moscow in the early hours of June 23rd 1941 were for all Front commanders to immediately counterattack deep into Poland, orders given to armies that were in a total shambles, but those were real events. Many historical situations in warfare would make any AI blush with embarrassment and will never happen in PBEM.

Solo AI play and PBEM are two sides of the same coin, the coins that fund a small niche market and, without both groups, there would be no games of this type.

I have never played WiF before, but will probably buy this title, first to use solo, then with an AI, if and when it is issued. Will it be worth it, don't know, but it looks like it will be quite a ride.

< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 10/30/2013 4:48:28 PM >

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Post #: 46

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/30/2013 5:21:50 PM

DSWargamer

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Just curious, a question for the AI fanatics.

Ok you play the game, and you try your best and you have thought out all your moves to the best of your ability, and it's several turns into the game, you've invested quite a few hours now, and you come to realize the AI has done something so totally WTF oriented, that you realize. ok this is in the bag, the AI is toast.

Do you think your time was wasted? Because I have played people games where the person clearly wasn't really interested or into the game. I have seen this a lot with both competitive games and merely social games. The person that is only playing because their girl/boyfriend or SO is playing kind of thing. They really are just place holders. Or the person that tries really crazy stunts and the moment it falls on it's face they just decide to throw the game.

That is not too critical in a squad tactical design where a turn is 5 minutes, not 5 hours, and a game is 20 turns and a single sitting, and not days and days of effort. I can fire up Battle Academy and hack away at Villers Bocage and if Wittman dies, I cancel the game, as there is no fun winning without him. I might have lost him being foolishly aggressive. But I risked 10 minutes, not 10 hours or 10 days.

WiF is not a casual game though. I am just wondering how you guys are going to feel when the AIs 'brilliant moves' make your game something of a farce?

To me, solitaire is a means to study, a means to enjoy something without being beholding to another player.
Just trying to figure out why the AI demanding players actually HATE being made to play the game against themselves.
Do you hate yourself that much?

I have used The Longest Day game to try and make sense out of the books I read, as they talk about places and events. I find it nice when a board game is able to be so detailed, I can actually set up the game to reflect the actual events, and then step back and seen the whole battle at a single glance.

Sometimes a board game can be a stop action still image and not a game if you think about it.

If you are lonely and need opponents, you can always go online and play one of oodles of MMOs eh.

_____________________________

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Post #: 47

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/30/2013 5:47:50 PM

pzgndr

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quote:

Just curious, a question for the AI fanatics.

Knock it off already DSWargamer. You don't like AI, fine, we got that. So what?

Next argument might be to pick a senseless fight between those who prefer the ETO sceanarios versus PTO scenarios versus global scenarios, as if personal preferences are not to be tolerated. Good luck with that too.

quote:

gaming is always a compromise, the AI is patiently waiting until needed, however long it takes. For some time now games have had multiple options and preferences, which allow settings for more varied and challenging games, many have the ability to mod and change features for more realism, but it's always a game however you play it

Bingo! But for the record, I have also played and enjoyed wargames solitaire, face-to-face, pbem and tcp/ip. It all depends. However anyone prefers to play their games is fine with me and should be fine with everyone else too. Except a few I suppose...

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Post #: 48

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/30/2013 6:05:41 PM

Rasputitsa

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Don't see myself as an AI fanatic, just play this way because it works for me, guess other people play differently for different reasons, but it doesn't matter as long as we all enjoy the game and the industry keeps going.

Many games it doesn't work, game is boring and repetitive so it goes on the shelf, but I have done my bit to keep the designers going and hope for something better.

Often you get a game working well and you have a great time, war is full of WTF moments, how farcical were some real events, things happen which shouldn't, the AI can provide this when a human opponent won't.

How will it work with MWiF, that remains to be seen, but ready to give it a try.

Love/Hate

it's a game, at least with an AI I have some idea what I'm playing against and can have some control over how it works to get the best results, so at least I can decide for myself how to use my time.

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Post #: 49

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/30/2013 8:36:23 PM

DSWargamer

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Pzgndr how about YOU knock it off eh. When I start slagging YOU, maybe I've gone over the line, but I'm simply not interested in your whining in defense of a form of programming. I realize, you can't cope with the fact I don't like your precious AIs. You behave like I am telling you your kid is ugly.

I'm not planning to soften my stance on AI and the lack of value it possesses.

It's too bad you couldn't answer the question I posed, or is it possible, you simply can't?

Or do you LIKE playing a game only to find out the whole process was an unmitigated waste of effort?

Rasputitsa, you remark, "at least with an AI I have some idea what I'm playing against" this is fundamental to my point though. We all KNOW what we are playing against. And while I won't tell someone they CAN'T play against an AI, and frankly how you use your time is your business alone, I have been there on so many wargame discussions, and the game gets released, and what's the first beef that usually gets raised..... the AI performance. And people actually expect something to magically happen with a patch.

_____________________________

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Post #: 50

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/30/2013 9:35:32 PM

Schnaufer

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Maybe if they said, "no AI" all those years ago, the hype train wouldn't have left the station.

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Post #: 51

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/30/2013 9:38:17 PM

Rasputitsa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer
Rasputitsa, you remark, "at least with an AI I have some idea what I'm playing against" this is fundamental to my point though. We all KNOW what we are playing against. And while I won't tell someone they CAN'T play against an AI, and frankly how you use your time is your business alone, I have been there on so many wargame discussions, and the game gets released, and what's the first beef that usually gets raised..... the AI performance. And people actually expect something to magically happen with a patch.

My comment above refers to the situation where I can set in options, or mods, the general capabilities that I am looking for in the game. We will all have a view of how history should be, depending on our reading habits, at least against the AI I don't have to argue about what the 'correct' historical perspective should be.

I am wary of revision and 'myths' in publications, but from time to time you read something which is compelling enough to change your perspective on historical events. The game designers' view is only as good as the data they have used (and this can change), a human opponent is the same, for me I have an overall view which I (and the AI) is happy with and, if I am wrong, the only person being fooled is me.

I am not so worried about AI goofs and as I have said, history is littered with inexplicable events, commanders have often stood within the wreckage of their plans screaming 'that shouldn't have happened'. So when the AI pulls some stunt, then so be it, war is hell.

Hitler ordered the long 50mm gun for the Pz III, his AI didn't fit it, Napoleon landing from Elba, intended to use the road he had ordered for construction, to head for Paris, only to discover that his AI hadn't built it. You could fill a book with plans that weren't followed, were misunderstood, were late, were in the wrong place, etc., etc., etc..

So difficult as it may be to accept, I can get more realism out of a lowly AI and complaints will come whatever is done with any aspect of the game whether, or not, its the AI.

It is my business alone, which is one reason to use the AI, but this is a forum and I reserve the right to make comments and suggestions, anyone has the right to totally ignore me.

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Post #: 52

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/30/2013 10:51:30 PM

pzgndr

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quote:

It is my business alone, which is one reason to use the AI

Let it go mate, she ain't worth another rebuttal. But it IS entertaining, eh?

Just bring on the game. We shall all figure it out and enjoy our game, in our own ways, irregardless of how anyone else wants to play their game. And it is just a game, a toy, for our entertaiment. Nuthin' more...

(in reply to Rasputitsa)

Post #: 53

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/30/2013 11:07:17 PM

Rasputitsa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

It is my business alone, which is one reason to use the AI

Let it go mate, she ain't worth another rebuttal. But it IS entertaining, eh?

Just bring on the game. We shall all figure it out and enjoy our game, in our own ways, irregardless of how anyone else wants to play their game. And it is just a game, a toy, for our entertaiment. Nuthin' more...

It's OK, I'll take my beating from the game.

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Post #: 54

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/30/2013 11:16:04 PM

Missouri_Rebel

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This all seems so trivial. I want an AI. I accept that will come later. In the meantime I will play solitaire, and if people don't get bored with giving me a serious smack-down, some online play also. I'll play online and solitaire after the AI release also.

I'm not sure what the point of contention is, but we all want the same thing; to be able to enjoy our hobby as we see fit. There is no right or wrong way here. Just matters of taste.

my 1 cent

mo reb

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Post #: 55

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/31/2013 12:17:49 AM

WIF_Killzone

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Joined: 4/30/2009
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Let it go guys. I heard a story on the radio today, basically, if you would not shout it (your post) across the street to someone then it probably is not worth posting. Another example they cited was from a guy that got into a chat (social media) comment about something the one guy said that he took offence to, it escalated a bit until the one guy (who cited the story) said lets take this offline and meet somewhere--he realized that he was actually going to fight over some stupid comments that meant nothing, he was ashamed.

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 56

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/31/2013 12:25:02 AM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer

I suspect it might be fair to claim you lot are not men in addition to not being real wargamers, and likely are predominatly single because you are anti social.

Ignore me, I thought you boys already had done that from the beginning. You've belittled everything I said, implied I am a troll and gotten all defensive all because I pointed out your single minded obsession with playing social products solo is likely the inherent design flaw in a lot of our hobbies games.

You lot sure are a contemptible bunch.

I should have listened to that inner voice that told me coming here was an error. You won't need to ignore, I'm taking the advice, and leaving.

So much for that.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to WIF_Killzone)

Post #: 57

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/31/2013 12:32:33 AM

WIF_Killzone

Posts: 277
Joined: 4/30/2009
Status: offline

Pity, I was going to fight him.

(in reply to Aurelian)

Post #: 58

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/31/2013 1:32:24 AM

Mynok

Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

quote:

your single minded obsession with playing social products solo is likely the inherent design flaw in a lot of our hobbies games.

You can think whatever you want of him, but THIS is absolute truth. And it bloody sucks.

So whine all you want, play however you want, no issues with me. But when I read about a game and the constant theme is about the AI, you can rest assured I will NEVER EVER buy that game. The AI bots are far more vocal on the forums for sure but there are plenty of us older types who will not wallow in that muck. You want my money you design it for human-on-human play. Period.

Just like every great game ever made was designed. Period.

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to WIF_Killzone)

Post #: 59

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/31/2013 2:40:20 AM

Numdydar

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline

So not a big fan of Galatic Civ then are we

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 60