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RE: When? - 10/24/2013 5:56:33 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eradanfaroth

Will this topic be definitively closed the 7th of November ?

That would be nice.

Probably not though.

---

AI Opponent is a much nigher priority than PBEM, post the initial release on November 7th.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Eradanfaroth)

Post #: 3601

RE: When? - 10/24/2013 6:19:08 PM

Centuur

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From: Hoorn (NED).
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We'll have a "When" for Multiplayer... "When" for the AI...

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Post #: 3602

RE: When? - 10/24/2013 6:28:49 PM

Numdydar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

By netplay you mean sitting at a computer playing your opponent real time?

As in - both players contact each other and make dates and times to meet online and churn out a game?

Yes. Both players will need to online at the same time. Just like playing the board game

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 3603

RE: When? - 10/24/2013 6:30:57 PM

brian brian

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playing World in Flames requires continual planning and decision making, and a whole lot of "game play" can be accomplished while the 2 players aren't connected to each other live.

(in reply to Numdydar)

Post #: 3604

RE: When? - 10/24/2013 6:40:06 PM

Numdydar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

playing World in Flames requires continual planning and decision making, and a whole lot of "game play" can be accomplished while the 2 players aren't connected to each other live.

Correct. This is why PBEM is also being implemented.

(in reply to brian brian)

Post #: 3605

RE: When? - 10/24/2013 11:01:49 PM

Lingering Frey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

A lot of AI work has been done already: Strategies and formulating how stuff can be encoded but obviously that's a long way from actually programming and then testing it.

Cheers, Neilster

I don't wish to minimize the enormous task of cataloging and ordering optimum strategies and choices an AI opponent (or any competent player) has to deal with. However, even though it seems that a lot of AI Opponent work has been done, I'm still not convinced that any amount of programming will be sufficient when the game is WiF and the goal is an "acceptable" AIO. I look with despair at the large teams who try and fail to design acceptable AI Opponents for games that are intentionally designed for them, games with rules designed for the computer to be able to handle. They can't even get a Total War game right and how much time and money and hours have been spent on that simple system with rules DESIGNED for a computer to be able to handle?

A WiF AIO would have to deal with rules designed for grognard humans, rules where one simple mistake (say, losing that critical HQ or being baited into wasting the only available TAC protecting a critical hex or a sudden crazy overcommitment of a navy in a dangerous zone or wasting amphs and marines in random poorly chosen invasions or wasting an offensive chit or overextending armor or flipping too many units too early in a turn) can completely throw an otherwise promising game you have spent many hours playing. Those kinds of things happen so frequently with WiF, I just can't picture a computer being able to figure it out consistently enough that the game won't be at a high risk of "breaking" every turn due to game-breaking incompetence.

The game will be MUCH better at calculating things like whether a hex it is thinking of invading can be put into supply. The game will be MUCH better at QUICKLY calculating the correct arrangement of units along a front to maximize the odds against the hexes it wants to attack. But that stuff won't make up for consistently doing stupid things that throw away the game. We could end up reverse "save scumming" by constantly having to reload from previous saves to try to get the computer to not throw the game.

I'm just a political science guy, I know little about computers other than how to buy and use them. I know Steve is an AI guy and I respect the heck out of that. Strategies and encoding work may have already advanced significantly, but I still maintain that there is a chief difficulty in getting an "acceptable" AIO for WiF: the soldiers defending humanity from the machines who come back in time to stop him before he is able to finish a competent AI for WiF.

But if a WiF AI releases, I'll be there with credit card in hand. But please, don't load it onto a computer attached to the internet.

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 3606

RE: When? - 10/25/2013 9:40:25 AM

Eradanfaroth

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There is one thing to know about AI programming when it comes to designing computer games :
Competence in the game itself is required.

You have taken Total War for example. It's a very good example.
I pre-ordered Empire Total War (last time i would send my money with blinding confidence in a great company). This game has been an abysmal failure. Not only because of bugs at release, but because the AI was totally inept. And this flaw has proved nearly impossible to correct. Why ?
From what i have read on this topic on the net ( then with the accordingly margin of error), it's seems that the programmer of the AI itself was an incompetent player. So he failed to only see his own mistakes and mispellings. Starting from that, AI has never recovered.

The big difference here is that the AI will be designed by players of the game, sufficiently competent in Wif gaming (I hope so, Steve and the others :p) for them to be able to design what we can call a good AI.
After all, a machine is only the work of his creator.

< Message edited by Eradanfaroth -- 10/25/2013 12:56:11 PM >

(in reply to Lingering Frey)

Post #: 3607

RE: When? - 10/25/2013 11:19:49 AM

Neilster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eradanfaroth

There is one thing to know about AI programming when it comes to designing computer games :
Competence in the game itself is required.

You have taken Total War for example. It's a very good example.
I pre-ordered Empire Total War (last time i would send my money with blinding confidence in a great company). This game has been an abysmal failure. Not only because of bugs at release, but because the AI was totally inept. And this flaw has proved nearly impossible to correct. Why ?
From what i have read on his topic on the net ( then with the acoordingly margin of error), it's seems the programmer of the AI itself was an incompetent player. So he failed to only see his own mistakes and mispellings. Starting from that, AI has never recovered.

The big difference here is that the AI will be designed by players of the game, sufficiently competent in Wif gaming (I hope so, Steve and the others :p) for them to be able to design what we can call a good AI.
After all, a machine is only the work of his creator.

Apparently Steve is a very good player and heaps of clearly expert players have provided detailed input on the AI as well.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Eradanfaroth)

Post #: 3608

RE: When? - 10/25/2013 12:59:16 PM

Eradanfaroth

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Dear Neilster,
The problem with your quoting of me, is that i can't edit it to correct some little errors, in grammary and spelling.
So my shame will be eternal ^^

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 3609

RE: When? - 10/25/2013 1:39:28 PM

Neilster

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Now everyone will notice

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Eradanfaroth)

Post #: 3610

RE: When? - 10/25/2013 1:43:31 PM

Eradanfaroth

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Hope we could settle this little disagreement on a MWIF battlefield a next day

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 3611

RE: When? - 10/25/2013 6:24:15 PM

Lingering Frey

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Someone recently asked if playing WiF solo is fun. It is enormously entertaining. I used to play many games against myself, even in addition to playing against others. The entertainment value available for even solo play is AMAZING. As fun as playing against other people? No. Playing WiF solo more fun than playing any wargame I've ever tried on the computer? Yes. Vastly more entertaining and I have played many.

Cheers! Only a couple more weeks to go before my work productivity declines. When you aren't actually playing WiF, you become continuously obsessed over your next moves.

(in reply to Eradanfaroth)

Post #: 3612

RE: When? - 10/25/2013 6:48:15 PM

juntoalmar

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I think is developing a highly competitive AI for MWiF, I've heard he's calling it Skynet...

(in reply to Lingering Frey)

Post #: 3613

RE: When? - 10/25/2013 6:52:26 PM

Centuur

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From: Hoorn (NED).
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lingering Frey

Someone recently asked if playing WiF solo is fun. It is enormously entertaining. I used to play many games against myself, even in addition to playing against others. The entertainment value available for even solo play is AMAZING. As fun as playing against other people? No. Playing WiF solo more fun than playing any wargame I've ever tried on the computer? Yes. Vastly more entertaining and I have played many.

Cheers! Only a couple more weeks to go before my work productivity declines. When you aren't actually playing WiF, you become continuously obsessed over your next moves.

Government warning: "Don't buy this game. It's addictive"...

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Peter

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Post #: 3614

RE: When? - 10/25/2013 11:34:14 PM

Zorachus99

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From: Palo Alto, CA
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Steve...

You need to stop tormenting us with these beautiful screenshots, and acting so coy about the release date.

Can I have the Shiny Thing now?

< Message edited by Zorachus99 -- 10/25/2013 11:39:23 PM >

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Post #: 3615

RE: When? - 10/25/2013 11:42:35 PM

WIF_Killzone

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True story, you can stare at it for hours to come up with the perfect plan/move only to roll $hit and spoil all your plans. I would never have the time to play solitaire on the map version of the game but with this I may have multiple games on the go just to destroy the remaining brain cells I have left.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lingering Frey

Someone recently asked if playing WiF solo is fun. It is enormously entertaining. I used to play many games against myself, even in addition to playing against others. The entertainment value available for even solo play is AMAZING. As fun as playing against other people? No. Playing WiF solo more fun than playing any wargame I've ever tried on the computer? Yes. Vastly more entertaining and I have played many.

Cheers! Only a couple more weeks to go before my work productivity declines. When you aren't actually playing WiF, you become continuously obsessed over your next moves.

(in reply to Lingering Frey)

Post #: 3616

RE: When? - 10/26/2013 1:21:30 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WIF_Killzone

True story, you can stare at it for hours to come up with the perfect plan/move only to roll $hit and spoil all your plans. I would never have the time to play solitaire on the map version of the game but with this I may have multiple games on the go just to destroy the remaining brain cells I have left.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lingering Frey

Someone recently asked if playing WiF solo is fun. It is enormously entertaining. I used to play many games against myself, even in addition to playing against others. The entertainment value available for even solo play is AMAZING. As fun as playing against other people? No. Playing WiF solo more fun than playing any wargame I've ever tried on the computer? Yes. Vastly more entertaining and I have played many.

Cheers! Only a couple more weeks to go before my work productivity declines. When you aren't actually playing WiF, you become continuously obsessed over your next moves.

Multiple solitaire games active at once, ... now there's an idea I never considered. Very Interesting, ...

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to WIF_Killzone)

Post #: 3617

RE: When? - 10/26/2013 3:49:50 PM

aaronden

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Thank you, thank you, thank you Steve. Can't tell you how excited I am to finally get the resource I need to play this game. Bought the Deluxe game in the late 90's, but never had the space to play it. Read through the rules maybe 10 times and drooled over the maps, counters and tables many more times.

I've followed this thread now for many years, and honestly never thought you'd get here. Your perseverance is mind boggling. For dedicated strategy gamers, this is truly an amazing event. Seriously, one of the very high points in my 50+ year gaming life.

Again, my very sincere thanks for all your hard work. I'll be buying the full deal (more physical maps to drool over) the moment it's posted for sale. Honestly, you guys could have priced it higher. : )

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 3618

RE: When? - 10/28/2013 5:58:57 PM

gw15

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Yep, I will buy it! No doubt about it.

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Post #: 3619

RE: When? - 10/31/2013 12:27:53 PM

Joseignacio

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So, I am puzzled.

- It was projected for 7 Nov.
- Then they change this too back to "Coming soon"
- Then it came out as a pre-release or whatever the name at Essen, so the game is made and the maps and manuals too.
- So, does the Nov 7th keep being the release date? or there will be a delay? and what would the reason be? the map and manuals printing?

(in reply to gw15)

Post #: 3620

RE: When? - 10/31/2013 2:35:03 PM

gridley

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Personally, I don't think the people who bought at Essen actually got the game. They paid, got the books, got the maps...game to be delivered. Like I said, though, that is just my take on it. Hopefully someone who bought at Essen can prove me wrong.

I wouldn't be doing any volunteer game promotion till there is an actual release.

(in reply to Joseignacio)

Post #: 3621

RE: When? - 10/31/2013 2:42:08 PM

Joseignacio

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Thanks for your input.

About the volunteer matter, it's just an initiative of mine I understand your point. I, however, think a game needs to be promoted any time but even more when it's about to come to the market. But I see why you say that. :)

(in reply to gridley)

Post #: 3622

RE: When? - 10/31/2013 3:03:48 PM

gridley

Posts: 126
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My only concern with getting new people to come here would be if they do miss Nov.7. There will be a lot of unpleasant posts...not a great way to get introduced to the game.

Like I said earlier, I have no facts to confirm they will miss the release...but many have asked about the change from Nov 7 to "coming soon". They have had ample opportunity to respond, yet nothing. Personally, I am patient, release it when its ready...but if they miss this release after building up the excitement...again...it won't sit well with some.

Anyway, I'm sure they are all scrambling in the background to get it done on time.

(in reply to Joseignacio)

Post #: 3623

RE: When? - 10/31/2013 5:01:53 PM

Numdydar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

So, I am puzzled.

- It was projected for 7 Nov.
- Then they change this too back to "Coming soon"
- Then it came out as a pre-release or whatever the name at Essen, so the game is made and the maps and manuals too.
- So, does the Nov 7th keep being the release date? or there will be a delay? and what would the reason be? the map and manuals printing?

From the 7 moments of WOW thread we have comfirmation of the game releasing next week.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Philkian

Well folks, this was the last Moment of Wow! See you next week for the release of Matrix's World in Flames!

(in reply to Joseignacio)

Post #: 3624

RE: When? - 10/31/2013 6:21:47 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

So, I am puzzled.

- It was projected for 7 Nov.
- Then they change this too back to "Coming soon"
- Then it came out as a pre-release or whatever the name at Essen, so the game is made and the maps and manuals too.
- So, does the Nov 7th keep being the release date? or there will be a delay? and what would the reason be? the map and manuals printing?

November 7th is the day of the 'official' release.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Joseignacio)

Post #: 3625

RE: When? - 11/1/2013 2:27:52 PM

PaxMondo

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My only thought for this entire project is that the AI files and an AI editor should be open to the user.

With a game of this scope, the AI will be a challenge. The ability to tap into the community will allow the AI to be improved far beyond what any developer is capable of delivering.

Looking forward to the AI release and the overall success of this amazing adventure.

_____________________________

Pax

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Post #: 3626

RE: When? - 11/1/2013 2:36:53 PM

juntoalmar

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From: Valencia
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I agree with that. If somehow AI parameters could be defined as plain text script that could be edited by users, that will mean a whole community of MWiF user improving the AI over time. We can see that there is a quite active community of MWiF in this forum. Some of them with hot discussions about AI too.

That reminds me all the mods for Quake that were out there, just because of it being open to modification.

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 3627

RE: When? - 11/1/2013 3:21:03 PM

Numdydar

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HoI III AI is based on scripts and the community has had a major impact on improving the AI in all the expansions of that game. They use Lua as the AI scripting system in case anyone was interested

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Post #: 3628

RE: When? - 11/1/2013 3:31:10 PM

wfzimmerman

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All these decisions about the AI have been made ages ago, so don't get too excited about it.

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Post #: 3629

RE: When? - 11/1/2013 8:25:36 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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November 1, 2013 Status Report for Matrix Games� MWIF Forum

The release date is still November 7th.

Hardware
I purchased two 30 inch monitors (Dell U3014) for my main system and they are just lovely. I am able to place the entire Interactive Delphi Environment (IDE, the source code and compiler stuff) on one screen. On the other I have a 40% vertical strip for my task list and the other 60% for an MWIF game-in-progress. This lets me select a bug to work on, fire up the game to recreate the problem, and examine/modify the code, all without having to open and close windows or scroll about madly in a tiny form.

Of my two old 24" monitors, my wife grabbed one for her Apple computer. So I have both a 24" and my wife�s 17" monitor sitting idle. Sometime in the first half of this month I�ll buy two more computer systems so I can start working on NetPlay for 4 players. I had to replace my graphics card to support two DVI cables for the 30" monitors and I replaced my keyboard & mouse because I had worn them out. The Ctrl and C keys on the keyboard were blank (I wore off the lettering) and the palm rest had a hole in it where my left hand rested. That was after only two years. I really like the Logitech wireless keyboard mouse combination, so I just bought the same thing again. Very little has changed, but the new one is much nicer than my old, heavily worn one.

I�ve also replaced my modem and router (8 years old) with a new modem/router. This virtually doubled the up and down speeds for my internet connection. The DSL line itself will be upgraded by the phone company in the next couple of days from 7 Mbps to 15 Mbps. I should replace my main computer too. It will be 4 years old next month and the salt air in Hawaii really does a job on plastics. It etches away at the metal bits too. But that will have to wait until 2014. I expect it to take at least 2 weeks for me to transfer all my files and software over to a new system. Presently I can�t afford that big a down time from my work.

Beta Testing
I have to be doubly sure about any changes I make from now on. I can�t afford to have modifications damage the existing, proven code. There is a never ending list of improvements possible, but I need to keep my eye on the ball and only do those which are important (for one reason or another). Frivolous little stuff doesn�t warrant risking the code base.

Marketing
Now it is up to you, dear reader, to answer the two crucial questions: (1) how big is the market for this niche product, and (2) how much do players like this Matrix version of World in Flames?

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to wfzimmerman)

Post #: 3630