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No AI? - 11/8/2013 8:21:47 AM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		That's a joke, huh? Spending 10 years on development and in the end deliver MWIF without computer opponents. Even an AI can never be as good as human players, I had appreciated it for learning purpose. So what do I get here for almost € 100,-, a slightly enhanced version of the vassal module with a butt-ugly (2006 vista style) UI? In comparison the 2007 classic version of the boardgame would take me € 80,- and the deluxe one € 160,-.

Instead of announcing that MWIF has no AI at initial release, you should be sincere and tell that it was simply too complex and even you eventually deliver one, it will feel like EiA reloaded.

Sorry for the harsh words, but for me this is a huge letdown.

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RE: No AI? - 11/8/2013 8:24:25 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		How could they be more "sincere" than saying up front that there's no AI?

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(in reply to Lützow)
Post #: 2
RE: No AI? - 11/8/2013 8:29:34 AM   
histgamer

 

Posts: 1455
Joined: 11/30/2006
Status: offline 		They announced awhile ago the initial release would be without an AI. I don't get you're outrage, it wasn't a secret the game wouldn't have an AI at launch.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow

That's a joke, huh? Spending 10 years on development and in the end deliver MWIF without computer opponents. Even an AI can never be as good as human players, I had appreciated it for learning purpose. So what do I get here for almost € 100,-, a slightly enhanced version of the vassal module with a butt-ugly (2006 vista style) UI? In comparison the 2007 classic version of the boardgame would take me € 80,- and the deluxe one € 160,-.

Instead of announcing that MWIF has no AI at initial release, you should be sincere and tell that it was simply too complex and even you eventually deliver one, it will feel like EiA reloaded.

Sorry for the harsh words, but for me this is a huge letdown.


(in reply to Lützow)
Post #: 3
RE: No AI? - 11/8/2013 8:30:09 AM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

How could they be more "sincere" than saying up front that there's no AI?


By avoiding the words 'initial release'.


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Post #: 4
RE: No AI? - 11/8/2013 8:39:09 AM   
Missouri_Rebel


Posts: 3065
Joined: 6/19/2006
From: Southern Missouri
Status: offline 		It's been well known and posted for well over a year that the initial release would not have an AI.

As far as 'slightly enhanced version of the vassal module'? That is simply not true. They're worlds apart.

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Post #: 5
RE: No AI? - 11/8/2013 9:36:13 AM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2903
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline 		If you look deeper into the extensive discussion om this subject you will see that it is intended that an AI will be provided in a later upgrade and a lot of work has already been done.

Many comments have been made that this game would never appear at all, but now it has been released, if a working AI is at all possible, I am sure that will also be released at some stage.

Many players think that an AI is essential and I am sure that Matrix/Slitherine are well aware of that and will provide it, if at all possible.


< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 11/8/2013 10:41:49 AM >

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Post #: 6
RE: No AI? - 11/8/2013 2:06:00 PM   
obermeister


Posts: 74
Joined: 4/24/2009
Status: offline 		As someone with a masters in computer science, I believe writing an AI for this game is going to be VERY hard, due to the huge number of optional rules. Oil/no oil, PiF no PiF, CLiF no CLiF just to name a few. When do I fly ground support and when do I hold back? What are acceptable odds for air combat given the situation at hand. How many ships and what kind do I put out to cover my convoys? What kind of units do I produce when? To say nothing of the strategic vision - do I try for a med or a 40' barb? Do I stuff the border or not? Do I DoW the US or Russia with Japan? The possibilities are endless and even humans make a lot of mistakes in games like this. It pushes us to the edge of what our brains can accomplish (my brain anyway) which is why I love it. Trying to write algorithms for all this to produce a skilled computer opponent? I'd estimate the cost would be in the millions. I know it's a job I would not claim I could accomplish on my lonesome! Now, producing an epic fail AI just to say you have one - that's a LOT easier.

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 7
RE: No AI? - 11/8/2013 2:25:05 PM   
Dr. Foo


Posts: 666
Joined: 8/31/2004
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		I agree with obermeister. They did an AI for Time of Wrath and due to the endless variables and the AI's inability to plan and react it's just a joke. I play solitaire. It's better than watching the AI do the dumbest things and my forces taking Moscow by the end of July 41!

Better without an AI they can take the time to fix other things.

< Message edited by Dr. Foo -- 11/8/2013 5:01:49 PM >

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Post #: 8
RE: No AI? - 11/8/2013 2:45:51 PM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obermeister

As someone with a masters in computer science, I believe writing an AI for this game is going to be VERY hard, due to the huge number of optional rules. Oil/no oil, PiF no PiF, CLiF no CLiF just to name a few. When do I fly ground support and when do I hold back? What are acceptable odds for air combat given the situation at hand. How many ships and what kind do I put out to cover my convoys? What kind of units do I produce when? To say nothing of the strategic vision - do I try for a med or a 40' barb? Do I stuff the border or not? Do I DoW the US or Russia with Japan? The possibilities are endless and even humans make a lot of mistakes in games like this. It pushes us to the edge of what our brains can accomplish (my brain anyway) which is why I love it. Trying to write algorithms for all this to produce a skilled computer opponent? I'd estimate the cost would be in the millions. I know it's a job I would not claim I could accomplish on my lonesome! Now, producing an epic fail AI just to say you have one - that's a LOT easier.

A lot of work has been done on the AI already. There's been heaps of input from experienced Wiffers and the problem has been broken down into manageable chunks and attacked systematically. A minimax type solution won't work as there are just too many unit and terrain types. Steve appears to have a good handle on it and he's extremely keen to do the AI. You could try searching for the old AI threads.

A lot of people said this game was too big to make but he eventually delivered. I trust him. Also, as has been pointed out many times, MWiF experts will play each other. The AI will only have to give lesser players an enjoyable game.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to obermeister)
Post #: 9
RE: No AI? - 11/8/2013 3:30:27 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2903
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline 		The AI does not have to be for lesser players, but for people who don't, or can't, make WiF their very lives. There are other games to play, without being expert in all of them, other things in life to do, the AI (hopefully) will be more than adequate for this.

With any AI, it is best to play to its strengths, how good does it have to be to replicate the Allied performance early in the war, or the dogged defence of the Axis in later years. I have had many enjoyable games playing against various AI opponents and expect to do so again.

< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 11/8/2013 4:31:15 PM >

_____________________________

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 10
RE: No AI? - 11/8/2013 3:41:24 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Hi guys,

We would very much like to provide an AI and the computer game was designed with the AI in mind, but had to make a decision on whether or not to hold the entire release for that feature. We will be working to complete the AI as soon as we can, but post-release support comes first.

Regards,

- Erik


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For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 11
RE: No AI? - 11/12/2013 2:54:51 AM   
Shaun Yu

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 5/13/2013
Status: offline 		Just a quick question. Will the AI add-on be free patch or bundled into some paid expansions?

-Shaun

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 12
RE: No AI? - 11/12/2013 3:17:22 AM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: shaunyu

Just a quick question. Will the AI add-on be free patch or bundled into some paid expansions?

-Shaun

Other expansions (more scenarios, PBEM, up to 6 multiplayer) will be free but the AI will be a paid extension.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Shaun Yu)
Post #: 13
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