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RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 12:18:19 AM

CheerfullyInsane

Posts: 199
Joined: 12/5/2010
From: Birkerod, Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

quote:

ORIGINAL: CheerfullyInsane
... If this means I'll have to wait for the hard-copies to sell out in order to get a DL-only version, so be it.

At that point Matrix will simply print more manuals. AFAIK the Matrix agreement with AGD is that there will NEVER be a download-only version since ADG want to preserve the price point so as to avoid pricing the actual cardboard wargame out of the market.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CheerfullyInsane

To me, it's not about the added costs of a printed manual. I'd happily pay full price for the download option alone.

Which is why I didn't suggest a price-drop.

I'm sure there's some sort of distribution-deal going on here, and I'm fine with it. But surely ADG and Matrix haven't drawn FedEx into their trifecta?

quote:

I suggest you buy the full version then flog the manuals (without the game disk) on ebay.

Sure. Now all I have to do is convince someone to buy the books without the game, for half the original cost + the import-tariffs I also have to pay + the shipping from me to the customer.........
No offense mate, but that's going to be a hard sell.

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Post #: 61

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 4:48:51 AM

76mm

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From: Washington, DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
...but we feel that the physical aspect is too important to this release to separate it from the release.

OK, as long a s you recognize that its a deal-breaker for many customers.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 11/8/2013 5:53:41 AM >

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 62

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 4:53:34 AM

jomni

Posts: 2827
Joined: 11/19/2007
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The game is worthless without the books. Bad graphics, no Ai... Think of it as buying the definitive WiF ruleset with a little helper software included as a bonus.

< Message edited by jomni -- 11/8/2013 5:54:29 AM >

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Post #: 63

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 4:59:16 AM

Zorachus99

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

The game is worthless without the books. Bad graphics, no Ai... Think of it as buying the definitive WiF ruleset with a little helper software included as a bonus.

Posts like this make me wonder what I could get for the books on Ebay...

'

Nah!

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Post #: 64

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 5:12:52 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer
Te idea that WiF printed and in colour and in decent type font and hard bound like the great book it will be is a bad purchase is simply too crazy to listen to. Go ahead, complain if you must about me saying that. Talk to the hand boys. I have a 7 inch Nexus and a 10 inch Transformer, and no, I don't really want to be stuck reading a manual that overwhelming as a pdf. There are limits. That's an idea for light reading novels, and 30 page manuals not worth the effort to print as you might read them 3 times before realizing you have mastered the instructions.

What a load of patronizing twaddle! Talk to the hand indeed. I'm sure that some people want (and others such as yourself need) the hard cover books, but there are many of us perfectly capable of reading things other than "light reading novels" digitally. I hope that's OK with you?

And as for selling the books on eBay--great idea, except for the fact that I live in Russia and if I ever get the books, it will be very difficult to sell them.

Ultimately I don't care that much, since I've never even heard of this game, although it sounds interesting and I probably would have bought it if not for the requirement to buy a physical copy.

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Post #: 65

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 6:34:35 AM

danimaning2

Posts: 40
Joined: 12/26/2009
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Hi all.

I�m waiting a lot of time for this game, but i can�t pay this prize. If i only pay for the download version i would make the efford, but i must pay ��33�!! more only for get a manual that i dont need.

what a pity

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 66

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 8:26:05 AM

reynt

Posts: 44
Joined: 5/5/2013
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From Spain ...

I am a good customer of MATRIXGAMES!

- Years waiting for the release of the game and I find this
- I just need digital copy.
- The manual I read perfectly on my tablet.
- Why spend 50 � in manual paper?
- I'm not the richest of Spain. � 150 is a lot of money.

- � 90 Digital version when you buy it.

I AM A GOOD CUSTOMER MATRIXGAMES. RESPECT YOUR CUSTOMERS!

A greeting.

PD: Sorry for my English.

Desde Espa�a...

�Soy un buen cliente de MATRIXGAMES!

- A�os esperando el lanzamiento del juego y me encuentro con esto�
- Yo s�lo necesito copia digital.
- El manual lo leo perfectamente en mi tablet.
- �Por qu� gastar 50 � en manual de papel?
- No soy el m�s rico de Espa�a. 150 � es mucho dinero.

- 90 � versi�n Digital lo compro al momento.

��SOY UN BUEN CLIENTE DE MATRIXGAMES. RESPETEN A SUS CLIENTES!!!

Un saludo.

PD: Perd�n por mi ingl�s.

(in reply to WIF_Killzone)

Post #: 67

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 12:57:35 PM

BlackStarWizard

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I'd gladly pay 30-40� for a pure digital edition. The paper manual is of no use to me as I prefer a searchable PDF (I already prefer to have a laptop at hand when playing tabletop WiF :) ). And to waste a lot of money on postage and printing which I could instead spend on buying more games seems like a total waste to me.

I dare say Matrix Games would make a lot more money if a pure digital edition was offered as an alternative right now. As it is, the release will suffer poorer sales and the commercial momentum of the game will drop. I personally will still buy the digital edition when it eventually comes out (it has to - they are already offering it for download for buyers of the boxed edition), but I think the chance is lost for Matrix to claim less hardcore fans who'd try it out if that were an option from release but will now turn away and forget about this game.

And I only say this because I am a fan :)

< Message edited by Pazuzu -- 11/8/2013 1:58:13 PM >

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Post #: 68

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 1:02:04 PM

aspqrz02

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Check out "A Modest Proposal" thread for a possible solution, if the price of the game is not a problem and the main issue is the excessive overseas shipping, VAT and customs charges are what really annoy ...

You can buy the game, not spend an arm and a leg on wasted shipping/customs etc. and probably send a message that a digital edition is all that many people want, while not, so to speak, cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Phil

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Post #: 69

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 1:10:30 PM

boshar

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From: the Netherlands
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I must say I find it strange that the download includes everything I need to enjoy the game. It took some work but now the PDF's are on my iPad so the manuals will probably stay untouched when they arrive. Maybe Matrix games could add an option for the environmentally conscious. Same price but with the option not to ship anything. Buyers would save on the shipping costs. Also an option for delayed shipping until the European warehouse is up and running would be nice BUT.... they would need to add EU taxes. The current price is without taxes and taxes will be added when the customs guys are vigilant, cranky or both.

If the customs people leave my package alone I will be very happy with the release as is. I really wanted those new worldmaps for a wallpaper project in my �ber geek apartment. It will be the best wallpaper ever and I could use it for planning my World conquest

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Post #: 70

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 1:19:40 PM

Erik Rutins

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Hi everyone, the decision to go with a physical only release was made a while ago and the rationale was explained in my earlier posts. We honestly feel the hardbound manuals are a key part of the game - adding them in actually decreases our margin per copy as we did not increase the planned price once we made the decision to print the manuals at this quality level, but we feel that they are necessary to the game. We tried to get the shipping costs down as much as possible, but until our European warehouse re-opens, we were unable to get them down further outside the US given the weight and size of the package. We were not happy with the shipping costs either. The only option I can offer right now is to wait until later in Q1 2014 when the European warehouse opens as that should reduce shipping costs to Europe and remove the risk of a customs duty. Per the announcement we posted, our best guess on that is February/March.

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 11/8/2013 2:20:03 PM >

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Post #: 71

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 1:32:54 PM

Erik Rutins

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I'd like to ask that any comments/complaints on the physical/download decision be kept to this thread. Thank you.

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

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Post #: 72

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 1:36:07 PM

Numdydar

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First off WiF is NOT by any streach a 'normal' computer game. I think this is what is causing all the issues on this (and maybe other topics too).

I cannot stress enough this point that WiF has NOTHING in common with 99% of any computer games that people here would normally buy.

ADG who owns the rights to WiF is STILL trying to sell PHYSICAL copies of the board game. So the computer version of WiF is in DIRECT competition with sales of the board game. So if a digitial copy of WiF was offered, what do you think would happen to sales of the actual board game? Rapiadly approch zero would be my guess. I think this release even without an AI is going to have a major impact already. So no reason to accelerate the process even more.

So Matrix/ADG want to a) put out a high quality produce, hence the hard bound manuals, and b) not try and eliminate sales of the board game itself. A fine line if there ever was one

This is what I consider the main reason for a physical copy only. This is NOT going to change anytime soon. Again because ADG is still selling physical games themselves. At some point in time (maybe after the AI version is released), ADG will stop selling the physical board and let Matrix sell a digital only version. This is especially more likely if sales of this version are high.

So if you are that upset about the physical copy, simply do not buy it. But Matrix/ADG are NOT doing this just to make things more difficult for you to buy the game.

I did suggest to Erik at Matrix to allow a digital only version to be offered without the physical manuals, but wherther you wanted the manuals or not you still had to pay the same price for the game. You just would not have to pay all the add on shipping/customs/etc. costs for the physical books. I have no clue if that is something MAtrix can do or not but think it is something they should do if possible.

If not then simply do as aspqzr suggests in the Modest Proposal thread as that is yet another workaround for those that REALLY do not want the manuals.

But please stop complaining about it and lets start discussing game realated stuff which I find much more interesting than yet another thread on this.

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Post #: 73

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 1:45:06 PM

lecrop

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Agree 100%

Especially the last sentence, let's talk about wargame stuff.

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Post #: 74

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 1:55:54 PM

BlackStarWizard

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

First off WiF is NOT by any streach a 'normal' computer game. I think this is what is causing all the issues on this (and maybe other topics too).

I cannot stress enough this point that WiF has NOTHING in common with 99% of any computer games that people here would normally buy.

ADG who owns the rights to WiF is STILL trying to sell PHYSICAL copies of the board game. So the computer version of WiF is in DIRECT competition with sales of the board game. So if a digitial copy of WiF was offered, what do you think would happen to sales of the actual board game? Rapiadly approch zero would be my guess. I think this release even without an AI is going to have a major impact already. So no reason to accelerate the process even more.

So Matrix/ADG want to a) put out a high quality produce, hence the hard bound manuals, and b) not try and eliminate sales of the board game itself. A fine line if there ever was one

This is what I consider the main reason for a physical copy only. This is NOT going to change anytime soon. Again because ADG is still selling physical games themselves. At some point in time (maybe after the AI version is released), ADG will stop selling the physical board and let Matrix sell a digital only version. This is especially more likely if sales of this version are high.

So if you are that upset about the physical copy, simply do not buy it. But Matrix/ADG are NOT doing this just to make things more difficult for you to buy the game.

I did suggest to Erik at Matrix to allow a digital only version to be offered without the physical manuals, but wherther you wanted the manuals or not you still had to pay the same price for the game. You just would not have to pay all the add on shipping/customs/etc. costs for the physical books. I have no clue if that is something MAtrix can do or not but think it is something they should do if possible.

If not then simply do as aspqzr suggests in the Modest Proposal thread as that is yet another workaround for those that REALLY do not want the manuals.

But please stop complaining about it and lets start discussing game realated stuff which I find much more interesting than yet another thread on this.

With all respect, I am quite sure that their reasoning is not what you describe because it would make no sense whatsoever.

Also, I agree that discussion on this should not become hysterical and should be kept in one thread (this one). But don't say "stop complaining" - us customers who want to buy the game but with the very reasonable demand of a digital edition (this is 2013, right?) need somewhere to give our fan feedback and try to convince Matrix that they have the chance of making money on us as well if they offer what we want to buy :)

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Post #: 75

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 1:58:25 PM

CheerfullyInsane

Posts: 199
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From: Birkerod, Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

ADG who owns the rights to WiF is STILL trying to sell PHYSICAL copies of the board game. So the computer version of WiF is in DIRECT competition with sales of the board game. So if a digitial copy of WiF was offered, what do you think would happen to sales of the actual board game? Rapiadly approch zero would be my guess. I think this release even without an AI is going to have a major impact already. So no reason to accelerate the process even more.

Which begs the question of why ADG allowed the PC version to be done in the first place?
Besides, it's not in direct competition of the board-game. Aside from the WIF fans, I suspect there are very few people contemplating buying the PC version that would even think for a second of buying the board-game, if for no other reason than the sheer size of it.
Hell, I wouldn't have space for the map, let alone the entire game.

quote:

So if you are that upset about the physical copy, simply do not buy it. But Matrix/ADG are NOT doing this just to make things more difficult for you to buy the game.

So why are they doing it?
I know the party line; "the game wouldn't be the same without the books".....
Which is fine to a point, but why not let the buyer decide what he/she needs?

quote:

But please stop complaining about it and lets start discussing game realated stuff which I find much more interesting than yet another thread on this.

I'd love to discuss the game. Except I can't get it without paying 50% more for it.

Oh, and btw the physical copy from ADG? Shipping is included in the $99 price...Funny that.

Please understand that I'm not trying to nitpick, nor am I cursing anyone out or threatening to stop buying Matrix games until such a time as they make the books in mauve covers, or any nonsense like that.
I am quite seriously trying to understand the reasoning behind this decision.
Because no matter how I look at it, it makes no sense whatsoever.
It's about the same as selling WitP:AE and then forcing people to adopt a pet giraffe as well.

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Post #: 76

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 2:06:05 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
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From: Washington, DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
First off WiF is NOT by any streach a 'normal' computer game. I think this is what is causing all the issues on this (and maybe other topics too).

I cannot stress enough this point that WiF has NOTHING in common with 99% of any computer games that people here would normally buy.

Sorry, but I'm really having a hard time understanding what you're saying here--that it is only possible to understand the rules if you have a hard copy book? I'm just not convinced of that at all. Or are you saying something else?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
ADG who owns the rights to WiF is STILL trying to sell PHYSICAL copies of the board game. So the computer version of WiF is in DIRECT competition with sales of the board game. So if a digitial copy of WiF was offered, what do you think would happen to sales of the actual board game? Rapiadly approch zero would be my guess. I think this release even without an AI is going to have a major impact already. So no reason to accelerate the process even more.
***
This is what I consider the main reason for a physical copy only. This is NOT going to change anytime soon.

I don't understand this argument at all...a computer version of WiF is being offered, in direct competition to the board game, so by your logic, sale of the board game will already drop like a rock with or without a digital-only product. Or are you suggesting that the customers complaining about a lack of a digital-only game (ie, the ones who don't want books or maps, etc.) are particularly likely to buy the board game instead? Don't you see the hole in that logic?

ADG could presumably sell digital-only for cheaper and get the same margin, or sell for the same price (without the hard copy books) and get a higher margin. So instead they're not selling it at all, which is kind of a head-scratcher.

The only logical reason I can see for them not to sell digital-only now is if they paid $$$ to have a bunch of the books printed and don't want to get stuck with them, so they're hoping that all of the die-hard fans will buy now regardless of cost,etc., and that once they've sold all the hard copies they will suddenly allow digital downloads. If this is what they're doing, they can't really admit it at this point or it might encourage people to wait for the cheaper d/d version.

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Post #: 77

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 2:07:41 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CheerfullyInsane
It's about the same as selling WitP:AE and then forcing people to adopt a pet giraffe as well.

Shhh, don't give them any ideas!

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Post #: 78

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 2:16:57 PM

Mynok

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quote:

I don't understand this argument at all...a computer version of WiF is being offered, in direct competition to the board game, so by your logic, sale of the board game will already drop like a rock with or without a digital-only product. Or are you suggesting that the customers complaining about a lack of a digital-only game (ie, the ones who don't want books or maps, etc.) are particularly likely to buy the board game instead? Don't you see the hole in that logic?

Not all who buy this game are anti-board game. Nor are all of those already familiar with the board game. There is opportunity for new sales of the board game. In addition, WiF is still being added to and developed by ADG. Those who are digital-only are not the target audience of this release.

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Post #: 79

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 2:22:19 PM

bairdlander2

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I have read this entire thread.Can someone please explain why it is required for play to have the hardbooks?And please dont say "the game wont be the same without them".How would it change the game?

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Post #: 80

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 2:24:18 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
Those who are digital-only are not the target audience of this release.

I'm not sure that I understand...so the computer game is aimed at a sub-set of the people who play the board game, rather than trying to expand the number of players?

If that is the plan, shouldn't ADG be concerned that many of the people buying the computer version will then sell their used version of the board game, thus cratering the market for new board games?

Since I don't know the game at all, I'm not upset either way, but I am rather intrigued by their business model.

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 81

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 2:27:08 PM

CheerfullyInsane

Posts: 199
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From: Birkerod, Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
Not all who buy this game are anti-board game. Nor are all of those already familiar with the board game. There is opportunity for new sales of the board game. In addition, WiF is still being added to and developed by ADG. Those who are digital-only are not the target audience of this release.

Oh, come on.....
You're saying that someone will buy the PC version incl. books for $100.
Then he'll think "wow, this is a great game, I must shell out ANOTHER $100 for the game components".
Seriously?

And if the target audience isn't the digital-only crowd, then why would you need the books?
Presumably the ADG game comes with some sort of an instruction leaflet of its own?

Btw, I have a little over 80 boardgames in my collection including VGs Vietnam, ASL & The Longest Day.
Whatever else people may call me, I'm certainly not 'anti-boardgame'

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Post #: 82

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 2:29:11 PM

CheerfullyInsane

Posts: 199
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

I have read this entire thread.Can someone please explain why it is required for play to have the hardbooks?And please dont say "the game wont be the same without them".How would it change the game?

So far there hasn't been anything resembling an explanation, no.

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Post #: 83

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 2:33:39 PM

wodin

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Maybe putting the books on ebay to re coup costs is the answer.

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Post #: 84

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 2:34:40 PM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

First off WiF is NOT by any streach a 'normal' computer game. I think this is what is causing all the issues on this (and maybe other topics too).

I cannot stress enough this point that WiF has NOTHING in common with 99% of any computer games that people here would normally buy.

ADG who owns the rights to WiF is STILL trying to sell PHYSICAL copies of the board game. So the computer version of WiF is in DIRECT competition with sales of the board game. So if a digitial copy of WiF was offered, what do you think would happen to sales of the actual board game? Rapiadly approch zero would be my guess. I think this release even without an AI is going to have a major impact already. So no reason to accelerate the process even more.

So Matrix/ADG want to a) put out a high quality produce, hence the hard bound manuals, and b) not try and eliminate sales of the board game itself. A fine line if there ever was one

This is what I consider the main reason for a physical copy only. This is NOT going to change anytime soon. Again because ADG is still selling physical games themselves. At some point in time (maybe after the AI version is released), ADG will stop selling the physical board and let Matrix sell a digital only version. This is especially more likely if sales of this version are high.

So if you are that upset about the physical copy, simply do not buy it. But Matrix/ADG are NOT doing this just to make things more difficult for you to buy the game.

I did suggest to Erik at Matrix to allow a digital only version to be offered without the physical manuals, but wherther you wanted the manuals or not you still had to pay the same price for the game. You just would not have to pay all the add on shipping/customs/etc. costs for the physical books. I have no clue if that is something MAtrix can do or not but think it is something they should do if possible.

If not then simply do as aspqzr suggests in the Modest Proposal thread as that is yet another workaround for those that REALLY do not want the manuals.

But please stop complaining about it and lets start discussing game realated stuff which I find much more interesting than yet another thread on this.

So - let me get this right?

You are saying that the boardgame and this game ARE NOT in direct competition, but the boardgame and the digital game ARE in direct competition? Can you explain to me why the DIGITAL computer version is only in direct competition with the boardgame but the physical copy is not?

And you are also saying that people who are requesting the digital copy will either a) buy the physical computer version or b) buy the boardgame or c) both?

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Post #: 85

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 2:42:10 PM

CheerfullyInsane

Posts: 199
Joined: 12/5/2010
From: Birkerod, Denmark
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Mr. Rutins (or any other Matrix Staff reading),

Could I trouble you for a clarification?
Say I use the 'trick' from the Modest Proposal thread; as in I order the game, get the download and reg-key, then have the books+disc sent to a US friend tp avoid shipping and import tariffs.
He in turn refuses to accept it, and it is thus returned to you.
Presumably the game is still registered to me, and the key printed on the disc won't get re-used in any way?

I agree that it's a very ugly work-around, and I plan to wait for a while to see if any other options opens up.
But would I be doing anything illegal or in any way risk the license being removed?

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(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 86

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 2:42:58 PM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
...Those who are digital-only are not the target audience of this release.

And you are saying that ADG and Matrix/Slitherine have no interest in other peoples money - just people who play the board game/played the board game/have the board game/want the physical manuals?

I've seen some crap around these forums over the years - but some of the threads, suggestions and "company line" rubbish targeted at this release are simply astounding.

Now I have heard Matrix and Slitherine suggest they know the market regarding what price to charge. They have all the data. That's fair enough. Fine. I'll submit to that.

But what? Now you are telling me that Matrix and Slitherine know what's best for their customers and what is best, in this case, is to NOT give purchasing options? They know best "for a fact" that this game is best with the manuals and if the people who wanted digital only were given that option, they'd be crying in their beer because Matrix knew best but they didn't listen and so didn't get the manuals? Please - give it a rest.

There is one reason why the manuals are enforced...that's to make sure they're sold. It's entirely possible Matrix have taken a dent in profit "margin" - but that is the reason.

And I think it was incredibly insensitive and extremely disingenuous of Matrix/Slitherine to enforce physical only knowing full well the cost implications to their European customers.

< Message edited by JudgeDredd -- 11/8/2013 3:45:14 PM >

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(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 87

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 2:45:11 PM

okiemcguire

Posts: 154
Joined: 9/24/2012
From: Arizona
Status: offline

Anybody need a shipping address here in the US, contact me by PM. I would love to have the hard back books. I am currently a beta tester for MWiF but live on a fixed income (retired). Not sure when I will be able to budget for the game... But since I am still beta testing, having the hard back books rather than referring to the online manuals would be great. Mike

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(in reply to CheerfullyInsane)

Post #: 88

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 4:49:58 PM

BlackStarWizard

Posts: 16
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

I have read this entire thread.Can someone please explain why it is required for play to have the hardbooks?And please dont say "the game wont be the same without them".How would it change the game?

They are not needed at all. The same books are available for download as indexed PDFs, which is less sexy but more practical (and it's hundreds of pages).

(in reply to bairdlander2)

Post #: 89

RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 5:26:02 PM

bairdlander2

Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline

ok,so I will ask again.What is the reason we are being forced to get manuals?Can we just get a reasonable answer.Please no "because you will enjoy it more" or the "experiance will feel differant" or something along those lines.Just a straight answer is all we are asking.If it is a contract with ADG,fine,I can accept that.Thanks.

(in reply to BlackStarWizard)

Post #: 90