Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: Physical Only ?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> RE: Physical Only ? Page: <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 5:30:33 PM   
Ingtar

 

Posts: 194
Joined: 8/1/2004
Status: offline 		I am guessing here, but I believe that since the pricing was set not to force the board game into extinction, this is Matrix' attempt to give more value for the money they are charging. Again, I am on the outside looking in, so this is my best guess.

(in reply to bairdlander2)
Post #: 91
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 5:43:06 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		Keep in mind if there is a contractual element between ADG & Matrix with respect to the requirement to ship the game with manuals, and with respect to pricing, Matrix may not be able to discuss it publicly.

If memory serves Matrix personnel have confirmed they have reduced their margins on MWiF as a result of the manuals. My speculation is that such a move implies some kind of obligation Matrix has to discharge.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Ingtar)
Post #: 92
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 5:46:27 PM   
Maesphil74

 

Posts: 93
Joined: 4/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ingtar

I am guessing here, but I believe that since the pricing was set not to force the board game into extinction, this is Matrix' attempt to give more value for the money they are charging. Again, I am on the outside looking in, so this is my best guess.


This.
And the fact they released without the AI.
They had to exchange the "value of the AI" with something else (who would pay 112 euro + taxes) for a boardgame assistant.

And then those maps: what would you do with them if you don't have the boardgame (no counters)?
Buy some counters!!
So that's a nice way of making ADG some money.

And I don't even really mind them trying to justify all this with some marketing turbo speak.
Hell, they can sell and charge what they want for all I care.
I do find it not very nice of them to only offer physical shipments, well knowing what this would mean for their european customers...But hey, it is what it is.

I'm just not buying this without an AI (which was promised 10+ years ago).
I hope I am entitled to this opionon!

(in reply to Ingtar)
Post #: 93
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 5:59:42 PM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline 		Yes,what is the purpose of the giant map?

(in reply to Maesphil74)
Post #: 94
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 6:09:27 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		The map is an optional add-on to my knowledge, unlike the player's manuals.

(And of course, its purpose is to look awesome. )

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to bairdlander2)
Post #: 95
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 6:34:28 PM   
reynt

 

Posts: 44
Joined: 5/5/2013
Status: offline 		Again.

- As good MATRIXGAMES client, I have the right to enjoy World in Flames.
- I think then are not things.

I feel discouraged, many years waiting for the game and now I can not play.

Sorry for my bad English.

Regards




Repito.

- Como buen cliente de MATRIXGAMES, tengo derecho a disfrutar de World in Flames.
- Pienso que así no se hacen las cosas.

Me siento desanimado, muchos años esperando el juego y ahora no lo puedo jugar.

Perdón por mi mal inglés.

Saludos

(in reply to WIF_Killzone)
Post #: 96
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 6:34:29 PM   
DBeves

 

Posts: 403
Joined: 7/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Maybe putting the books on ebay to re coup costs is the answer.

quote:

target audience isn't the digital


And who is going to buy them ? Since you cant buy the game without the books the only people wanting the books are those who have the game through "other" means. What makes you think there is a market for the books which you can only get with the game ?

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 97
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 6:39:54 PM   
DBeves

 

Posts: 403
Joined: 7/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

The game is worthless without the books. Bad graphics, no Ai... Think of it as buying the definitive WiF ruleset with a little helper software included as a bonus.


Why is it worthless ? - I say again - I will load the books on my kindle fire and read them there. I will never touch the books. And I am not even complaining that I have to pay for books I will never use - I am complaining about the fact I have to have the frickin things posted to me. I will pay the same price for a digital copy as for a physical copy - I just wont fill the profit coffers of royal mail and customs to get a bunch of stuff I neither need nor want.

Matrix have yet to proffer a reasonable explanation why this is not possible - aside from the earlier marketing BS. They can keep the books and sellem on ebay.

(in reply to jomni)
Post #: 98
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 7:11:29 PM   
rickier65

 

Posts: 14231
Joined: 4/20/2000
Status: offline
I've been following this forum for a quite a while now and reading all of the current threads on the "physical vs download only" has been interesting. It seems quite a few folks are primarily more concerned with the added cost of having the physical material delivered (with potential custom fees added) than with the cost of the game itself.

One poster, aspqrz, initiated a thread with a suggestion to order it and have it shipped to a US address, for those that really didn't want the physical components. This actually sounds like a reasonable solution, if it's really the additional costs that is the issue.

That sounds like a pretty creative solution and to piggy back on that, you might want to try and find a physical address for Matrix games, and have it shipped to them, I believe they have addresses in at least a couple of US locations.

Of course, personally, the physical components look great to me -- so if anyone want to ship them to me, go for it! I really can't imagine not wanting them, but if it means up to a 50% premium for shipping and customs, I can appreciate the concern.

Rick

(in reply to DBeves)
Post #: 99
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 7:15:01 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Thought World in Flames collectors maybe interested I suppose..forgive me because I'm stupid.

I suppose we need to remember the profits will get split three ways aswell..prob in this order ADG, Slitherine followed by Mr OKeets.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Maybe putting the books on ebay to re coup costs is the answer.

quote:

target audience isn't the digital


And who is going to buy them ? Since you cant buy the game without the books the only people wanting the books are those who have the game through "other" means. What makes you think there is a market for the books which you can only get with the game ?



< Message edited by wodin -- 11/8/2013 8:15:28 PM >

_____________________________

My website


https://www.awargamersneedfulthings.co.uk/

(in reply to DBeves)
Post #: 100
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 7:22:50 PM   
JiminyJickers


Posts: 290
Joined: 10/4/2011
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		I am very interested in this game and would love to be able to buy it without the physical manuals and things. Please won't you let me do this?

I read all my manuals on my tablet and haven't wasted paper printing off manuals since then.

I don't think shipping it to some address in the states and hoping it doesn't get delivered, and hoping someone else doesn't open the box and use my licence is a good idea at all.

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 101
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 7:25:52 PM   
CheerfullyInsane

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 12/5/2010
From: Birkerod, Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rick
That sounds like a pretty creative solution and to piggy back on that, you might want to try and find a physical address for Matrix games, and have it shipped to them, I believe they have addresses in at least a couple of US locations.


No need to actively try to annoy people, is there?
What I intend to do (assuming Matrix doesn't release a DD), is ally myself with a friend of mine in the US.
He gets the package, mails the DVD to me, and if he so chooses he can sell the books on eBay and keep whatever profits he can get. Otherwise he can chuck them.
I'd love to have the books, but not at an additional $95 in shipping, tariffs and VAT.
That would be asinine.

_____________________________

"Something is always wrong, Baldrick. The fact that I'm not a millionaire aristocrat with the sexual capacity of a rutting rhino is a constant niggle"
- Edmund Blackadder

(in reply to rickier65)
Post #: 102
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 8:29:16 PM   
DBeves

 

Posts: 403
Joined: 7/29/2002
Status: offline 		Well no - the reasonable solution is for matrix to offer a digital only option. Same price just the option to decline a physical copy. Seriously Matrix - WTF is the problem with that ?

< Message edited by DBeves -- 11/8/2013 9:31:36 PM >

(in reply to rickier65)
Post #: 103
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 10:03:00 PM   
CheerfullyInsane

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 12/5/2010
From: Birkerod, Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves

Well no - the reasonable solution is for matrix to offer a digital only option. Same price just the option to decline a physical copy. Seriously Matrix - WTF is the problem with that ?


Couldn't agree more. If I have to, I'll go through the whole US address circus, but I'd rather not have to.
What I can't figure out is this:
Erik has stated (and I'm paraphrasing here) that Matrix has had to reduce the profit margin in order to include the books.
Looking at the various threads, there seems to be a number of people who are quite willing to increase that profit-margin by paying the same for the product without the books.
Granted, my knowledge of the software world is limited indeed, but I can't possibly imagine that it'll cost more to generate a new software license than printing a new set of books.
So from where I'm sitting, Matrix has a number of people here screaming "please take my money" and replies "No. Shan't"

It completely eludes me...

And if the reason for the forced book-buy is due to a fear of getting stuck with a ton of un-sold merchandise, here's my offer:
I will pay full price for the game, voluntarily forfeiting the books and DVD. Matrix can then destroy the DVD to avoid multiple keys. After that Matrix is free to give away the books to any WIF fan who is willing to pay for the shipping.
I get to play WIF without paying exorbitant fees, the WIF fan gets his coveted books for a sweet price, and Matrix gets their money and has no surplus books to store.

_____________________________

"Something is always wrong, Baldrick. The fact that I'm not a millionaire aristocrat with the sexual capacity of a rutting rhino is a constant niggle"
- Edmund Blackadder

(in reply to DBeves)
Post #: 104
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 10:19:52 PM   
Dorb


Posts: 371
Joined: 10/8/2013
From: Ohio
Status: offline 		I think when you look at the price of Command:Modern Air Navel Operations at $94.99 with small paperback manual and you look at this with 3 hardbound full size books for $99.99 - "Nuff said"

(in reply to CheerfullyInsane)
Post #: 105
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 10:22:45 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves

Well no - the reasonable solution is for matrix to offer a digital only option. Same price just the option to decline a physical copy. Seriously Matrix - WTF is the problem with that ?


They can't? Licensing restrictions? They've all but said it. So quit whining. Ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

I have to wait several months before I can get it. Cest la vie.

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to DBeves)
Post #: 106
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 10:34:24 PM   
BlackStarWizard

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CheerfullyInsane


quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves

Well no - the reasonable solution is for matrix to offer a digital only option. Same price just the option to decline a physical copy. Seriously Matrix - WTF is the problem with that ?


Couldn't agree more. If I have to, I'll go through the whole US address circus, but I'd rather not have to.
What I can't figure out is this:
Erik has stated (and I'm paraphrasing here) that Matrix has had to reduce the profit margin in order to include the books.
Looking at the various threads, there seems to be a number of people who are quite willing to increase that profit-margin by paying the same for the product without the books.
Granted, my knowledge of the software world is limited indeed, but I can't possibly imagine that it'll cost more to generate a new software license than printing a new set of books.
So from where I'm sitting, Matrix has a number of people here screaming "please take my money" and replies "No. Shan't"

It completely eludes me...

And if the reason for the forced book-buy is due to a fear of getting stuck with a ton of un-sold merchandise, here's my offer:
I will pay full price for the game, voluntarily forfeiting the books and DVD. Matrix can then destroy the DVD to avoid multiple keys. After that Matrix is free to give away the books to any WIF fan who is willing to pay for the shipping.
I get to play WIF without paying exorbitant fees, the WIF fan gets his coveted books for a sweet price, and Matrix gets their money and has no surplus books to store.


No, the reasonable thing is for the digital only option to be the full price minus the cost of printing the 750 pages of manuals.

As for surplus books, I would certainly hope (and assume) that they print those massive manuals on demand, having no way of knowing what kind of amounts they'd sell of such an expensive product. And this being 2013. Same with the huge map of course.

Don't get me wrong - I think the price and content is great for someone wanting a luxury/collector's edition, but it's a complete turnoff for someone who just wants to play and enjoy the game. And the developers and publishers will lose sales and money beause of this.

(in reply to CheerfullyInsane)
Post #: 107
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 10:37:16 PM   
Dorb


Posts: 371
Joined: 10/8/2013
From: Ohio
Status: offline 		Sell the books on ebay - someone will buy.

(in reply to BlackStarWizard)
Post #: 108
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 10:59:58 PM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorb

I think when you look at the price of Command:Modern Air Navel Operations at $94.99 with small paperback manual and you look at this with 3 hardbound full size books for $99.99 - "Nuff said"

Actually price is $111.99 cdn and with shipping $162.

< Message edited by bairdlander -- 11/9/2013 12:03:54 AM >

(in reply to Dorb)
Post #: 109
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 11:07:29 PM   
JiminyJickers


Posts: 290
Joined: 10/4/2011
From: New Zealand
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorb

I think when you look at the price of Command:Modern Air Navel Operations at $94.99 with small paperback manual and you look at this with 3 hardbound full size books for $99.99 - "Nuff said"


You are comparing a physical version with a physical version (excluding shipping), I'm confused.

The point of this thread is that we don't want the physical version. Don't care if it was 10 printed manuals made with love and care. I just want the pdf versions, no shipping involved.




< Message edited by JiminyJickers -- 11/9/2013 12:08:10 AM >

(in reply to Dorb)
Post #: 110
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 11:14:05 PM   
JiminyJickers


Posts: 290
Joined: 10/4/2011
From: New Zealand
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves

Well no - the reasonable solution is for matrix to offer a digital only option. Same price just the option to decline a physical copy. Seriously Matrix - WTF is the problem with that ?


They can't? Licensing restrictions? They've all but said it. So quit whining. Ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

I have to wait several months before I can get it. Cest la vie.


Can you please point us at where they mention the licencing restriction?

The only thing I have seen mentioned is:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
... We honestly feel the hardbound manuals are a key part of the game - adding them in actually decreases our margin per copy as we did not increase the planned price once we made the decision to print the manuals at this quality level, but we feel that they are necessary to the game. ...


Well, I don't see how a hardbound manual is necessary to anything, given that the pdf versions are available.

I'll quit whining/complainging/asking, whatever anyone wants to call it, when they give a clear answer that doesn't boggle the mind about why they are doing this.




< Message edited by JiminyJickers -- 11/9/2013 1:25:20 AM >

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 111
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 11:24:52 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline 		All but said it? Do you read English? It's an inference and not a hard one to get.

Why else would they not have digital only?

< Message edited by Mynok -- 11/9/2013 12:25:41 AM >

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to JiminyJickers)
Post #: 112
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 11:27:44 PM   
CheerfullyInsane

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 12/5/2010
From: Birkerod, Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

All but said it? Do you read English? It's an inference and not a hard one to get.

Why else would they not have digital only?


That's kinda what we're trying to find out.

_____________________________

"Something is always wrong, Baldrick. The fact that I'm not a millionaire aristocrat with the sexual capacity of a rutting rhino is a constant niggle"
- Edmund Blackadder

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 113
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/8/2013 11:43:46 PM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1024
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		IF there WERE licensing restrictions and, despite what you claim to be able to infer, there are currently NO actual statements saying so, that mandated producing hardbound books for each copy of the game to be sold, I would be amazed and astounded, not to mention completely flabbergasted, to find that said licensing restrictions DEMANDED that the purchaser ave no choice but to accept shipping of the physical copies.

What a sensible company would do, if, indeed, they are required by contract to produce physical manuals and include them in the sale price, would be, in this case, given the large number of potential customers who are turned off by the huge shipping and customs imposts, to allow them to pay for the whole thing, including the printed manuals, and then choose 'no shipping' on the understanding that the disks and books would then be destroyed in the warehouse. You could even charge a nominal fee - say the $9 that shipping inside the US seems to be - to cover the cost of destruction of the books/disks and you'd get many people happy to save $50+ on shipping and ghu knows how much additional for customs etc.

That would seem to cover all bases ... if not, you could use my other suggestion from another locked thread and get the same effect. I mean, lets get real, there's no way they can force you not to send a parcel to any address you please, is there?

The lame and completely ridiculous excuses (no, I don't accept that they're 'justifications') that they have given show they really don't get it. So, as we say in Oz, don't encourage the b******s

Phil

_____________________________

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 114
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/9/2013 12:23:23 AM   
JiminyJickers


Posts: 290
Joined: 10/4/2011
From: New Zealand
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

All but said it? Do you read English? It's an inference and not a hard one to get.


I can read, speak, and write English quite well, but nothing can be inferred from the total lack of information given thus far. If you have seen a statement that does infer a license agreement, please point it out. I'm genuinely interested in seeing this, not trying to be confrontational.

quote:


Why else would they not have digital only?


This is exactly what I would like to know and is the point of the thread. It boggles my mind that people are begging to buy a digital only product but they are refusing to sell it, even though you get the digital version when buying the physical one. Just doesn't make any sense.

Hopefully we will get a proper answer soon and lay this, what seems madness, to rest.



< Message edited by JiminyJickers -- 11/9/2013 1:27:15 AM >

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 115
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/9/2013 12:30:49 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JiminyJickers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

All but said it? Do you read English? It's an inference and not a hard one to get.


I can read, speak, and write English quite well, but nothing can be inferred from the total lack of information given thus far. If you have seen a statement that does infer a license agreement, please point it out. I'm genuinely interested in seeing this, not trying to be confrontational.

quote:


Why else would they not have digital only?


This is exactly what I would like to know and is the point of the thread. It boggles my mind that people are begging to buy a digital only product but they are refusing to sell it, even though you get the digital version when buying the physical one. Just doesn't make any sense.

Hopefully we will get a proper answer soon and lay this, what seems madness, to rest.




The proper answer is in this very thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

We looked at it this way - this is primarily a game for tabletop WIF players. It is also an awesome computer wargame just as it is an awesome tabletop wargame, but without an AI in the initial release, that's a hard hill for many primarily computer wargamers to climb, who are used to AI releases. The WIF community, as a primarily tabletop community, is also used to getting a good physical package for their money. The work that went into WIF development and keeping it faithful to the tabletop game was beyond anything we've ever done before. Development-wise, this is about ten normal games rolled into one.

So our first thought was how to do justice to this game and give the WIF community something special. The hard-bound volumes, the first hard-bound large full color volumes Matrix Games has ever released, are the first part. The biggest wargame map possibly ever printed is the second part. We feel those are a key part of doing this release right. Removing the hard-bound volumes, even though they are costly to print, would not have resulted in a significantly reduced price due to the time that this was in development. By doing this we actually reduced our profit margin per unit as the planned price point has always been in this range. We decided to add in the manuals and the map pack to make it the best release possible.

Regards,

- Erik



But if it's not the answer you want............................................. oh well.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 11/9/2013 1:40:19 AM >

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to JiminyJickers)
Post #: 116
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/9/2013 12:57:43 AM   
rickier65

 

Posts: 14231
Joined: 4/20/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

....

But if it's not the answer you want............................................. oh well.


+1

rick

< Message edited by Rick -- 11/9/2013 1:58:09 AM >

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 117
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/9/2013 1:03:34 AM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline 		Perhaps a compromise would be to have made the books optional.The giant map is optional,so why not the books?That way the WIF tabletop players that this game was released for could have their books?

< Message edited by bairdlander -- 11/9/2013 2:10:38 AM >

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 118
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/9/2013 2:43:24 AM   
jzz001

 

Posts: 117
Joined: 12/5/2010
Status: offline 		Matrix, you are not selling the computer wargame, you are just selling books here. so bye bye WIF.

(in reply to bairdlander2)
Post #: 119
RE: Physical Only ? - 11/9/2013 3:08:41 AM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1024
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		So, let's put this in perspective ...

a) Matrix's pre-release sales assessment was, allegedly, that ONLY owners of the boardgame would ever want to get CWiF

b) That they'd automatically want yet another print copy of the rules, despite already having them

c) That they'd want (b) DESPITE potentially HUGE shipping costs and customs duties for non-US orders even so

... I can almost believe that. Almost, even though (b) is implausible in the light of (c), which beggars belief

What I cannot believe is that

d) Matrix, on finding that there are people who will buy a download only version of the game, and buy it willingly, FOR THE SAME PRICE AS THE PHYSICAL COPY

and

e) Consider it an excellent bargain to avoid excessive shipping and customs fees

and yet MATRIX WON'T EVEN CONSIDER TAKING THEIR MONEY.

From a market segment their pre-release research allegedly didn't even suspect existed.

They are *rejecting* the chance of additional profits ... which makes no sense in any universe that I am aware of.

YMMV

Phil

_____________________________

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au

(in reply to jzz001)
Post #: 120
Page:   <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> RE: Physical Only ? Page: <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.672