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Next elections, remember the shipping eh - 11/10/2013 12:29:33 PM

DSWargamer

Posts: 283
Joined: 8/25/2010
Status: offline

We all know it isn't the fault of Slitherine Group.

It's the bureaucrats, and it's the people making trade deals, and it is the people that think for themselves and certainly not you.

Keep this in mind the next time elections arrive. Because if you want to waste your time voting based on whether Adam and Steve can get married, and not about whether you can buy a game across the pond and not get it up the butt at the door when it is delivered, well it's your vote eh.

Oh and make sure you actually vote eh. Because if half the population doesn't vote. then the person that gets elected, with 50+ or more of the vote, numerically speaking was not actually responding to 50+ or more of the population.

Sorry to get political here. But who do you think is really responsible eh?

Here in Canada, we know of things like 'Free Trade' and of course we all know it's a crock.
And we all know the Chinese are buying everything not nailed down. And the market between North America and Europe is not really level.

The world is a single place online, right till you are forced to stomache 'regionality'. Because I can order anything from anywhere, but in might not always play in the machines made for my area. It's probably time the world market accepted there was no such things as borders in some cases.

The idea of some of you guys paying what you are paying to get the game shipped to you, is truly insane. So object at the next elections. Don't spend your time arguing over issues you really couldn't care less about.

I don't want anyone in A-stan, and I have no interest in anyone doing anything in Syria. Let the Syrians fix their country, or not. They will be shooting at each other for a long time from today with or without you caring.

Make a noise about being unable to buy a stupid game and not getting trashed at the door.

The last time I voted, I voted for Jack Layton here in Canada. Because he stood up to Bell Canada and to all the good ole boys that think they can lie and just basically do what they damn well please with internet based services. I was not going to vote based on some bloody trendy issue only important to religious hate mongers.

I bought the game knowing full well I likely might need to have a LOT of spare emergency cash stashed in my hobby room when it gets delivered. I'm hoping I get no surprises, but if I do, I do. I'm not going to refuse the parcel, I want my damned parcel. I think it is worth the 160 I am aware of, I'd have paid the price if it had been 200. I'd be happier knowing it was all going to Slitherine Group.

What are YOUR local worthless politicians going to be flogging for campaign promises next time eh? Think of them when remembering your game, that you might not have gotten, all because of trade deals they are responsible for.

Yeah it's just a wargame today. What about next time, and the next time and the next time eh.
If you do nothing, your objections to the shipping are also worth nothing.

_____________________________

I have too many too complicated wargames, and not enough sufficiently interested non wargamer friends.

Post #: 1

RE: Next elections, remember the shipping eh - 11/10/2013 12:55:59 PM

Dorb

Posts: 371
Joined: 10/8/2013
From: Ohio
Status: offline

Agreed. They only make the game, they are not the folks charging the freight and extras.
We are all here because this is our hobby, and hobbies can be expensive at times.

(in reply to DSWargamer)

Post #: 2

RE: Next elections, remember the shipping eh - 11/10/2013 1:20:06 PM

Scott_WAR

Posts: 1020
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline

While what you are saying is true......there is definitely some blame to be shared. First off, in a discussion a while back it was revealed that typically,...the longer the development time for a game the higher the price. Which is fine until you have a game where one developer takes the better part of a decade to code the game,...when a regular size team could have done it in a fraction of the time. Then charging us a ridiculous amount of money for the game. THEN adding more to the cost by FORCING players to buy books, which aren't needed AT ALL.

Most of us have no problem paying a higher price for a game that we would not get otherwise, no matter the size of the dev team or time it took, we understand its a semi-niche market and the profit margins are smaller, so to make it worth the time you have to charge a certain price.......and I am sure the same would hold true cWIF, for me it would.......but for many of us,..forcing us to spend so much more on books we neither need nor want is just a step too far.

On the bright side,...this is just one game.......thankfully its not something that will become a trend (such as DLC etc) and as such isn't that big of a deal.

< Message edited by Scott_WAR -- 11/10/2013 2:35:54 PM >

(in reply to Dorb)

Post #: 3

RE: Next elections, remember the shipping eh - 11/10/2013 1:41:07 PM

Neilster

Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

...Which is fine until you have a game where one developer takes the better part of a decade to code the game,...when a regular size team could have done it in a fraction of the time...

You are wrong about this. This has been thrashed out before and I can tell you that Steve essentially took this on as a labour of love and has put in a ridiculous amount of hours for no money so far.

He inherited a lot of code from a previous developer but has had to make massive changes and additions to that. He has stated repeatedly that even adding one developer wouldn't have been worth it because the time taken to get them up to speed on what is in his head would have nullified the advantage. Also, that person is hardly likely to work for free. He has had some help (and his share of serious health problems) but basically the game wouldn't have been developed otherwise.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Scott_WAR)

Post #: 4

RE: Next elections, remember the shipping eh - 11/10/2013 2:05:08 PM

Scott_WAR

Posts: 1020
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline

That's not really the point and I probably shouldn't have mentioned it,...I have no issue at all paying a higher than normal price for the game,..but there are limits,...especially when a good chunk of that price is for things that I neither want nor need.

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 5

RE: Next elections, remember the shipping eh - 11/10/2013 2:11:32 PM

Peeking Duck?

Posts: 96
Joined: 8/30/2001
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer

We all know it isn't the fault of Slitherine Group.

It's the bureaucrats, and it's the people making trade deals, and it is the people that think for themselves and certainly not you.

Keep this in mind the next time elections arrive. Because if you want to waste your time voting based on whether Adam and Steve can get married, and not about whether you can buy a game across the pond and not get it up the butt at the door when it is delivered, well it's your vote eh.

Oh and make sure you actually vote eh. Because if half the population doesn't vote. then the person that gets elected, with 50+ or more of the vote, numerically speaking was not actually responding to 50+ or more of the population.

Sorry to get political here. But who do you think is really responsible eh?

Seriously m8. Keep your shoite politics out of this. No none is denying your right to be a fascist, we just don't want to hear about it, so kindly stfu. Cheers.

< Message edited by Peeking Duck? -- 11/10/2013 3:12:42 PM >

(in reply to DSWargamer)

Post #: 6

RE: Next elections, remember the shipping eh - 11/10/2013 2:18:59 PM

Neilster

Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

That's not really the point and I probably shouldn't have mentioned it,...I have no issue at all paying a higher than normal price for the game,..but there are limits,...especially when a good chunk of that price is for things that I neither want nor need.

I didn't take issue with that. I can't read your mind.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Scott_WAR)

Post #: 7

RE: Next elections, remember the shipping eh - 11/10/2013 2:32:28 PM

DSWargamer

Posts: 283
Joined: 8/25/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peeking Duck?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer

We all know it isn't the fault of Slitherine Group.

It's the bureaucrats, and it's the people making trade deals, and it is the people that think for themselves and certainly not you.

Keep this in mind the next time elections arrive. Because if you want to waste your time voting based on whether Adam and Steve can get married, and not about whether you can buy a game across the pond and not get it up the butt at the door when it is delivered, well it's your vote eh.

Oh and make sure you actually vote eh. Because if half the population doesn't vote. then the person that gets elected, with 50+ or more of the vote, numerically speaking was not actually responding to 50+ or more of the population.

Sorry to get political here. But who do you think is really responsible eh?

Seriously m8. Keep your shoite politics out of this. No none is denying your right to be a fascist, we just don't want to hear about it, so kindly stfu. Cheers.

Must have me confused with someone else, I've been called a commie for more than a decade :)

Curious though, why do people say 'Cheers' after having posted an offensive comment?

Don't let the door hit your butt as you leave the kitchen eh, you ain't my mate.

_____________________________

I have too many too complicated wargames, and not enough sufficiently interested non wargamer friends.

(in reply to Peeking Duck?)

Post #: 8

RE: Next elections, remember the shipping eh - 11/10/2013 2:35:31 PM

Maesphil74

Posts: 93
Joined: 4/10/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer

It's the bureaucrats, and it's the people making trade deals, and it is the people that think for themselves and certainly not you.
.....

I don't mind paying taxes. 21% VAT + 7% duties when I order somehting I need/want and that's not available in the euro zone?
No problem with me.
Those 21+7% go to my Healthcare/childcare/schools for my daughters/tax deductions on my house loan/

Yeah, I'm what you guys in the States/Canada call a "socialist"
Over here it's called a social democrat. Like 95% of europeans are.

But that's hardly the point here; the point is that Matrix/Slitherine/ADG are not giving me the option to not pay shipping/VAT/taxes/duties on somehting I don't want. The point here is that they are forcing us to invest an unknown amount of money, just to play a downloadable game.

I ordered D-day at Omaha beach from decision games a couple of months ago. I paid shipping/VAT/duties etc. No problem; it's a boardgame. No other options, are there?

Now I'm forced to pay 60+ euros over the Retail price to play a pc game because they needed to ship the hardbound manuals to honour their marketing deal with ADG. A game that can be played 30 minutes after paying but apparantly is unplayable without 3 books

So no, I'm not gonna think about this next election. I'm gonna think about this when matrix games puts out a new game and is asking me to pull out the VISA card again.

I really wish this game would have been physical only with a warehouse in Dover. Oh my, just think how you would feel.

< Message edited by Fleming -- 11/10/2013 4:35:05 PM >

(in reply to DSWargamer)

Post #: 9

RE: Next elections, remember the shipping eh - 11/10/2013 3:30:42 PM

Posts: 4176
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

While what you are saying is true......there is definitely some blame to be shared. First off, in a discussion a while back it was revealed that typically,...the longer the development time for a game the higher the price. Which is fine until you have a game where one developer takes the better part of a decade to code the game,...when a regular size team could have done it in a fraction of the time. Then charging us a ridiculous amount of money for the game. THEN adding more to the cost by FORCING players to buy books, which aren't needed AT ALL.

Most of us have no problem paying a higher price for a game that we would not get otherwise, no matter the size of the dev team or time it took, we understand its a semi-niche market and the profit margins are smaller, so to make it worth the time you have to charge a certain price.......and I am sure the same would hold true cWIF, for me it would.......but for many of us,..forcing us to spend so much more on books we neither need nor want is just a step too far.

On the bright side,...this is just one game.......thankfully its not something that will become a trend (such as DLC etc) and as such isn't that big of a deal.

Hi Scott

I am going to have to disagree with you on the this programming team you might be talking about, and who might they be? Gary Grigsby and company, who? I have no idea what the contract reads between Steve and Matrix or how the two of them came together.
I have posted before several years ago about how Steve might have some help avaialble to him other than just beta testers who are really not programmer or at least I am not.

Did you ever consider that maybe Matrix spoke to other programmers or developers before they settled on Steve? Just maybe no programmer wanted to take on this conversion from the board game to the computer and who could blame them. I have the game on my computer for over a year beta testing it. The game is brilliantly done IMHO.

Remember this is not a made up out of my head game WITP, Eastern front, Civil war 2 Strategic command Panzer corp, on and on [not knocking these games, all decent games] This computer game is a true step by step conversion from the board game, and Steve has to put on a computer what board game players must know what has to be there, no deviations. The game plays smoothly thanks to Steve but good lord the rules are mind boggling that have to be entered into computer language.

In conclusion If it were not for Steve and Matrix there would be no computer World in Flames.

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 11/10/2013 6:16:20 PM >

(in reply to Scott_WAR)

Post #: 10

RE: Next elections, remember the shipping eh - 11/10/2013 4:27:29 PM

Solaristics

Posts: 195
Joined: 2/20/2002
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer

Sorry to get political here. But who do you think is really responsible eh?

I'm a bit confused by your post. You're asking who is responsible for the shipping being so expensive for people outside the US? Shipping is provided by FedEx, so I guess that price is set by FedEx and the free market economics of shipping. If you're talking about value added tax, here in the UK that's added to most things regardless of where you buy it and has nothing to do with cross-border trade or tariffs. If you're talking about excise duty, then the game is below the threshold for attracting excise duty in the UK for its product type. If you're talking about the custom clearance handling charge, that's a complete racket, but I'm not sure the government is to blame, as that is a price set by the company shipping your goods. Perhaps that needs to be regulated more heavily, or opened to more competition, or they do indeed earn their money in ways that aren't obvious to me. I don't know. Any way, that is only accrued when shipping physical products, not downloads, and only where VAT has not been paid at the point of purchase.

Maybe the overall situation is different in Canada, but I'm not sure voting for one party or the other in a Canadian election is going to significantly change any of these factors.

(in reply to DSWargamer)

Post #: 11

RE: Next elections, remember the shipping eh - 11/10/2013 4:41:26 PM

DSWargamer

Posts: 283
Joined: 8/25/2010
Status: offline

Hondo, that attitude is basically why the world is like it is.

To some extent, I suspect there are persons at Slitherine Group wondering, hmmm maybe this should have been a physical shipment, and nothing else. Might have been possibly a good idea to NOT make the manuals part of the program.

Might have been a good idea to make it a game you either want or do not want, and not let it be confused by something like War in the East, which is just a computer game. Which I am sure took 2by3 quite a lot of effort to make regardless of it being just software.

It would have wiped out a lot of the anger and dismay.

I know this much, if I want something from MMP, it is ALL physical, there's no such thing as sofware involved, and if I want to use VASL to play it online, sure I can download VASL, it's free, and it is also hmmm not an ideally easy install, the files are a mess, and all over the place and not unified and you never really know precisely what you are doing with it till after a lot of confused fumbling around with it.

Here in Canada, we tend to get slagged for being 'commies' by oodles of Americans on forums (never met any of these opinions in person though), but, well I suppose I can suffer the comments. My country is in better shape than the USA. There must be some value in being a socialist somewhere.

I vote for what matters in my life. Not for what I am told is the main issues by media sources owned by vested interests that our owned by the rich who don't care. It's an uphill fight all the way though.

_____________________________

I have too many too complicated wargames, and not enough sufficiently interested non wargamer friends.

(in reply to Solaristics)

Post #: 12

RE: Next elections, remember the shipping eh - 11/10/2013 4:51:15 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

Please, no politics. That applies to all the forums and posts therein.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to DSWargamer)

Post #: 13

RE: Next elections, remember the shipping eh - 11/10/2013 5:38:45 PM

Scott_WAR

Posts: 1020
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

While what you are saying is true......there is definitely some blame to be shared. First off, in a discussion a while back it was revealed that typically,...the longer the development time for a game the higher the price. Which is fine until you have a game where one developer takes the better part of a decade to code the game,...when a regular size team could have done it in a fraction of the time. Then charging us a ridiculous amount of money for the game. THEN adding more to the cost by FORCING players to buy books, which aren't needed AT ALL.

Most of us have no problem paying a higher price for a game that we would not get otherwise, no matter the size of the dev team or time it took, we understand its a semi-niche market and the profit margins are smaller, so to make it worth the time you have to charge a certain price.......and I am sure the same would hold true cWIF, for me it would.......but for many of us,..forcing us to spend so much more on books we neither need nor want is just a step too far.

On the bright side,...this is just one game.......thankfully its not something that will become a trend (such as DLC etc) and as such isn't that big of a deal.

Hi Scott

I am going to have to disagree with you on the this programming team you might be talking about, and who might they be? Gary Grigsby and company, who? I have no idea what the contract reads between Steve and Matrix or how the two of them came together.
I have posted before several years ago about how Steve might have some help avaialble to him other than just beta testers who are really not programmer or at least I am not.

Did you ever consider that maybe Matrix spoke to other programmers or developers before they settled on Steve? Just maybe no programmer wanted to take on this conversion from the board game to the computer and who could blame them. I have the game on my computer for over a year beta testing it. The game is brilliantly done IMHO.

Remember this is not a made up out of my head game WITP, Eastern front, Civil war 2 Strategic command Panzer corp, on and on [not knocking these games, all decent games] This computer game is a true step by step conversion from the board game, and Steve has to put on a computer what board game players must know what has to be there, no deviations. The game plays smoothly thanks to Steve but good lord the rules are mind boggling that have to be entered into computer language.

In conclusion If it were not for Steve and Matrix there would be no computer World in Flames.

Bo

Yes, there are a few games out there that are step by step conversions of real life board games, and some of those games cost a lot for the real life tabletop versions,.....yet somehow all of those PC conversions managed to be released without costing as much and not requiring buying books that are completely unnecessary.

But again,...its not the actual cost of the game itself,...but the inflated cost of having to pay for 3 books that I do not want nor need.

(in reply to bo)

Post #: 14

RE: Next elections, remember the shipping eh - 11/10/2013 5:56:44 PM

Posts: 4176
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

While what you are saying is true......there is definitely some blame to be shared. First off, in a discussion a while back it was revealed that typically,...the longer the development time for a game the higher the price. Which is fine until you have a game where one developer takes the better part of a decade to code the game,...when a regular size team could have done it in a fraction of the time. Then charging us a ridiculous amount of money for the game. THEN adding more to the cost by FORCING players to buy books, which aren't needed AT ALL.

Most of us have no problem paying a higher price for a game that we would not get otherwise, no matter the size of the dev team or time it took, we understand its a semi-niche market and the profit margins are smaller, so to make it worth the time you have to charge a certain price.......and I am sure the same would hold true cWIF, for me it would.......but for many of us,..forcing us to spend so much more on books we neither need nor want is just a step too far.

On the bright side,...this is just one game.......thankfully its not something that will become a trend (such as DLC etc) and as such isn't that big of a deal.

Hi Scott

I am going to have to disagree with you on the this programming team you might be talking about, and who might they be? Gary Grigsby and company, who? I have no idea what the contract reads between Steve and Matrix or how the two of them came together.
I have posted before several years ago about how Steve might have some help avaialble to him other than just beta testers who are really not programmer or at least I am not.

Did you ever consider that maybe Matrix spoke to other programmers or developers before they settled on Steve? Just maybe no programmer wanted to take on this conversion from the board game to the computer and who could blame them. I have the game on my computer for over a year beta testing it. The game is brilliantly done IMHO.

Remember this is not a made up out of my head game WITP, Eastern front, Civil war 2 Strategic command Panzer corp, on and on [not knocking these games, all decent games] This computer game is a true step by step conversion from the board game, and Steve has to put on a computer what board game players must know what has to be there, no deviations. The game plays smoothly thanks to Steve but good lord the rules are mind boggling that have to be entered into computer language.

In conclusion If it were not for Steve and Matrix there would be no computer World in Flames.

Bo

Yes, there are a few games out there that are step by step conversions of real life board games, and some of those games cost a lot for the real life tabletop versions,.....yet somehow all of those PC conversions managed to be released without costing as much and not requiring buying books that are completely unnecessary.

But again,...its not the actual cost of the game itself,...but the inflated cost of having to pay for 3 books that I do not want nor need.

Ok I have no problem with what your saying here on this post, beings a beta tester here I do not know whether to agree with you or not

maybe for me

I was just not in your corner about how some imaginary team could have done this much quicker and at less cost to the customer. NP.

Bo

(in reply to Scott_WAR)

Post #: 15

RE: Next elections, remember the shipping eh - 11/10/2013 6:12:17 PM

Scott_WAR

Posts: 1020
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

I was just not in your corner about how some imaginary team could have done this much quicker and at less cost to the customer. NP.

Bo

Ah, that was a post from a few years ago.....in one of the many discussions about why Matrix doesn't lower the price of their really old games to sell a few copies of them instead of not making any money off of them at all any longer. One of the comments made by someone that was either a developer or in some way actually involved in the process was that the price of games are strongly influenced by how long it takes to develop them,....mainly because the developer has to recoup a certain amount to make it worth their time to do it,...and the longer it takes the higher that number has to be. I actually made a joke that WIF would probably cost over $100 because of the crazy amount of time it had been in development.

Little did I know.........the joke was on me.

(in reply to bo)

Post #: 16

RE: Next elections, remember the shipping eh - 11/10/2013 6:17:24 PM

Posts: 4176
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

I was just not in your corner about how some imaginary team could have done this much quicker and at less cost to the customer. NP.

Bo

Ah, that was a post from a few years ago.....in one of the many discussions about why Matrix doesn't lower the price of their really old games to sell a few copies of them instead of not making any money off of them at all any longer. One of the comments made by someone that was either a developer or in some way actually involved in the process was that the price of games are strongly influenced by how long it takes to develop them,....mainly because the developer has to recoup a certain amount to make it worth their time to do it,...and the longer it takes the higher that number has to be. I actually made a joke that WIF would probably cost over $100 because of the crazy amount of time it had been in development.

Little did I know.........the joke was on me.

Maybe on all of us

It has taken way to long but other comments would be above my pay grade. Pay?

Bo

(in reply to Scott_WAR)

Post #: 17

RE: Next elections, remember the shipping eh - 11/11/2013 12:18:51 PM

Scott_WAR

Posts: 1020
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline

lol,...yeah,....but its not a very funny joke that's for sure.

I really don't understand Matrix and their outlook on consumers. They seem to think that X amount of people are going to buy the game,...no matter whether it costs $100 or $20. Which couldn't be farther from the truth. Setting the prices so high because they fear their will be few sales is a self fulfilling prophecy. Most people ARENT going to buy at that price.......but many,....many more would buy at a more reasonable price......meaning more sales and eventually more profit.......but Matrix cant seem to understand that price affects sales.

(in reply to bo)

Post #: 18