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RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/16/2013 8:41:40 PM

henri51

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CheerfullyInsane

So if Empires in Arms was sold WITH horses, you'd be okay with that too?

Well I would like a horse, but my condo does not allow animals...

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Post #: 31

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/16/2013 8:42:00 PM

JiminyJickers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer

I do actually think it is funny, but, maybe they SHOULD charge some of you FULL price, and then NOT ship the books. And in that way, you get what you claim you desire, just the digital download, NO books, NO cd too of course as it comes with the books.

So in my case, it would have been 160 bucks after shipping and taxes, and no physical shipment. Because as you are saying, you want to pay the same price as physical, just no 'surprise' sum at your door tacked on as additional.

That's idiotic, but hey, it's your money. Why argue with a person demanding to spend 160 bucks on a digital download, when I can get the same thing AND the books.

All the silly comments about clay tablets, and archaic forms of communication have been creative I admit.

It's a shame one person isn't on the forums today though. He sure picked the wrong time to be absent.

Exactly, I am happy to pay full price, excluding shipping charges for this game.

But you are arguing that I should not be allowed to play the game, because I don't value the physical items. How can people be so close minded that they want to force everyone to have to think the same was as them. All I want it the option to buy digital only, but you are saying that I shouldn't have that option because you prefer the printed manuals.

It saddens me that you would force me not to enjoy this game along with you. We could both enjoy it and play it multiplayer together and even become friends through our love of this type of game, but currently you are saying that I shouldn't be allowed to play it, because it's your way or the highway.

What has this community come to? All I want is a choice. I'm not saying that they shouldn't sell the physical version, I would never dream of denying you the option of buying the books and maps and everything.

Imagine if it was reversed and there was no physical manuals, some people arguing that people who want printed manuals should not not be allowed to buy the product because they don't understand that is meant to be a digital game only. You would be rightly upset that you should be allowed to choose, given that Matrix has always offered both physical and digital options in the past.

I just don't get why you are so against me playing this game. Can't we both be allowed to enjoy this great game?

(in reply to DSWargamer)

Post #: 32

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/16/2013 8:43:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shaddock

Hey bo it's supposed to be ZOC LOL Neilster.

Good thing you were not sending morse code messages for the US in WW2

_ _ . . = Z

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 11/16/2013 9:43:13 PM >

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Post #: 33

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/16/2013 11:54:18 PM

shaddock

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You're right bo. When I wrote it down, the two dashes blended together!

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Post #: 34

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/17/2013 1:15:16 AM

Arnir

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I wish I could find a face palm smiley. This isn't a computer game? Uh, yes it is. A computer port of a board game but a computer game nonetheless. Even having to say this makes me worry about the Matrix boards. I didn't want to say anything, but this is getting a bit weird to me. Hyperbole is common on gaming boards everywhere, but really? I could say, "why have these boards (read forums) when it is a board game? Why not use the ADG forums spread around the internet?"

Good humor for the rest.

We could always let Matrix decide: "Do you want those of us who see this as a computer game be quiet and leave?" I think that is a silly question, but let's bring on the silly. "No one expects the WiF Inquisition!" (sorry, best I can do this time of night

) I hope everyone can enjoy the game for what it is to them. No need to force everyone to march in lockstep.

< Message edited by Arnir -- 11/17/2013 2:16:37 AM >

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Post #: 35

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/17/2013 2:24:53 AM

shaddock

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Careful now, or you'll have the Judean People's Front Crack Suicide Squad after you!

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Post #: 36

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/17/2013 2:53:25 AM

Gizuria

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quote:

I do actually think it is funny, but, maybe they SHOULD charge some of you FULL price, and then NOT ship the books. And in that way, you get what you claim you desire, just the digital download, NO books, NO cd too of course as it comes with the books.

And then wait for the inevitable plague of law suites that would be sure to follow?

quote:

So in my case, it would have been 160 bucks after shipping and taxes, and no physical shipment. Because as you are saying, you want to pay the same price as physical, just no 'surprise' sum at your door tacked on as additional.

People want to pay the full digital price for the game which is about US$100 but do not want to pay the additional shipping costs for books they do not want or need, in my case an additional $42 with further charges on top of that for import duties, VAT etc. That seems to me to be an astonishing display of loyalty and committment to the game designers from these members of the community and deserves real respect and not this...

quote:

Some of us are out here facepalming thinking that some of you are making the hobby look like it is rife with spoiled entitled brats disguised as old men.

The designers and Matrix's spokesman have stated that they took a cut in their profit margins to include these deluxe books as part of the package. The customers who are offering to pay the full whack without the books are clearly offering to give MORE money back to the designer and Matrix rather than into the pockets of Fedex. More than you have paid to support them.

< Message edited by Fascist Dog -- 11/17/2013 3:57:42 AM >

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Post #: 37

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/17/2013 8:10:31 AM

ess1

Posts: 238
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

I'm still unclear about this section on Zones of Control...

Cheers, Neilster

It is upside down you silly Aussie

Congrats. on beating Ireland. Roll on the Tests

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Post #: 38

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/17/2013 1:37:23 PM

henri51

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Like my brother used to say:"If you are gonna be silly, you might as well go all the way!"

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Post #: 39

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/17/2013 2:18:55 PM

DSWargamer

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Now there is irony, I post a comment detailing the process they state they would go to, to avoid malicious shipping add ons (not the original cost of shipping, just the malicious add ons), and they state they want the game so much, they would even forgo getting the physical item, and just pay the price they would have paid, if they were being shipped the physical items, but without the physical items ever being actually shipped for real, in a bid to eliminate all chance of those malicious add ons ever occurring (because if nothing is ever actually shipped, then no intermediaries will ever get the chance to add them on), and people are reacting as if it was my crazy idea :)

I don't know why they can't not ship the books. I don't really care to know. It is almost certainly a privately arrived at business deal, and no amount of angst is going to get the information out of any official voice if they are not inclined to disclose it. And as we never get told simple basic stats like units sold, I can't actually see them releasing private information like this.

i was not charged any extra on the shipment. I have witnessed comments that customers in the UK have not been charged any extra. Hell the entire debate might have been a great deal of angst about nothing for all we know. Has anyone as of this moment, had their parcel arrive, and a deliver person tell them to fork over an extra 40 bucks yet?

I mean, that sort of thing DOES happen. I once refused a deliver from concert dvd from Japan Amazon when they wanted 25 bucks on top of an already crazy shipping cost. My son once got dinged for buying a simple computer keyboard from the US. It does happen. Has it yet happened here? It usually only happens when the source does nothing at all the avoid it. My invoice literally screams out of Matrix Games intentionally making the effort to make my shipment 'easier' through customs. To be certain, my total invoice was NOT worth 40 bucks :)
But that is what it reads. Now, if it had gone lost in the mail, it would only be insurable for the worth of a 40 dollar item.

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Post #: 40

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/17/2013 2:37:07 PM

brian brian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shaddock

Careful now, or you'll have the Judean People's Front Crack Suicide Squad after you!

now we're getting somewhere in the Mysteries. It's simple really. That grail of documents we keep hearing tell of, the fabled "RAW" we all want to bicker and argue about on this friendly occasion, was actually written by Joseph of Arimathea. In Aramaic! That explains everything! All these years, simply because Steve had to convert it all to Australian to create the Codex we bow to now, "RAC." Don't forget Joseph's Last Word, it was a classic.......

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Post #: 41

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/17/2013 3:30:31 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer

Now there is irony, I post a comment detailing the process they state they would go to, to avoid malicious shipping add ons (not the original cost of shipping, just the malicious add ons)...

No, actually people are also objecting to paying $50+ for shipping for an item that they don't want.

(in reply to DSWargamer)

Post #: 42

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/17/2013 5:40:52 PM

shaddock

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I think it's more like they produced a package. That package is the game sent via download and disk, and the books. They simply assumed everyone would want the entire package and made enough books to meet the expected demand. Two things happened: 1st some didn't want the books, 2nd some didn't want to pay the extra $$ associated with the books, i.e. shipping. Once the initial batch of packages are sold (with the books) then a new package will be sold. Perhaps at that time new packages will be offered, based upon peoples responses to the original package.

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Post #: 43

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/17/2013 5:51:36 PM

Dr. Foo

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: shaddock

Perhaps at that time new packages will be offered, based upon peoples responses to the original package.

Yeah, I'd be surprised if the books are even offered a year from now. They are hardcovers and must be very expensive to produce. Therefore, those that have them but don't want them, might be able to make some money selling them on eBay if they are discontinued.

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Post #: 44

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/17/2013 5:59:14 PM

DSWargamer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer

Now there is irony, I post a comment detailing the process they state they would go to, to avoid malicious shipping add ons (not the original cost of shipping, just the malicious add ons)...

No, actually people are also objecting to paying $50+ for shipping for an item that they don't want.

Well I have seen that some people actually seem to complain regardless of how you try to please them :)

I would though like to see some examples of shipping ambushes if any have occurred at all.

I personally will stick to my conclusion that the inclusion of the pdf files was an error. No pdf files would have meant you want the game or you don't no argument possible.

Then I would likely also add, that sometimes digital download is a mixed blessing. If they had put the game on sale, and no digital download, it would still have gotten here prompt like, and I wouldn't have suffered any trauma from waiting. and they wouldn't have persons wanting just the digital download.

Looks like it has been a rough couple of years for Slitherine Group learning you can't please all of the people all of the time.

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Post #: 45

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/17/2013 7:11:43 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer
I personally will stick to my conclusion that the inclusion of the pdf files was an error. No pdf files would have meant you want the game or you don't no argument possible.

Then I would likely also add, that sometimes digital download is a mixed blessing. If they had put the game on sale, and no digital download, it would still have gotten here prompt like, and I wouldn't have suffered any trauma from waiting. and they wouldn't have persons wanting just the digital download.

I would be upset about your self-centered, close-minded, and luddite opinions about how computer war games should be sold if I thought there was the slightest chance you'd ever play any kind of role in making this kind of decision for a company in the business of selling computer war games.

But I don't see much risk of that, so I'll limit my reaction to pure amusement at your curmudgeonly notion that everyone should agree with you about how to enjoy this game.

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Post #: 46

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/17/2013 7:24:02 PM

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Ok gentlemen isn't this conversation in the posts kinda moot at this point

It is what it is. I am not saying don't post, just keep it civil please.

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 11/17/2013 8:39:07 PM >

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Post #: 47

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/17/2013 9:21:05 PM

DSWargamer

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Thank the maker I wasn't born a man :)

Why the hell do I come here?

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Post #: 48

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/17/2013 9:47:55 PM

Mynok

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer
I personally will stick to my conclusion that the inclusion of the pdf files was an error. No pdf files would have meant you want the game or you don't no argument possible.

Then I would likely also add, that sometimes digital download is a mixed blessing. If they had put the game on sale, and no digital download, it would still have gotten here prompt like, and I wouldn't have suffered any trauma from waiting. and they wouldn't have persons wanting just the digital download.

I would be upset about your self-centered, close-minded, and luddite opinions about how computer war games should be sold if I thought there was the slightest chance you'd ever play any kind of role in making this kind of decision for a company in the business of selling computer war games.

But I don't see much risk of that, so I'll limit my reaction to pure amusement at your curmudgeonly notion that everyone should agree with you about how to enjoy this game.

Em, this isnt a computer war game. It is an adaptation of a board game. A board game that is still in print. You keep harping on this but this game is NOT the same as other Matrix titles. So you should expect and in fact are seeing a difference in the distribution. It is not to hard to infer that there are licensing restrictions on how they can distribute the game, and that until those restrictions are lifted or go away, you will not see any other alternatives.

Of course as in every situation, those displeased with the status quo are the most vociferous in pronouncing its tyrannical despicableness. Something else to expect and in fact are seeing.

I frankly do not care what any individuals personal perspective is but those who accuse Matrix of stupidity and whine because they 'cant' buy the game need to find somewhere else to go. At this point you either buy it is as is or just quit bothering the rest of us enjoying the game.

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Post #: 49

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/17/2013 10:11:54 PM

brian brian

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When you start yet another thread to argue something, you shouldn't act surprised when people take you up on the offer.

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Post #: 50

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/17/2013 10:49:03 PM

jomni

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Printed Manual gets old. eManual gets updated when changes are made to the game.

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Post #: 51

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/17/2013 10:53:32 PM

Numdydar

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But the point here is this is NOT a computer game that will have the manuals updated. At least not for a long time. This is because the rules of the board game will have to change first. The manuals already have all the optional rules in them even though some of these are not yet coded. So people need to stop thinking of this game as something that is going to change a lot over the next year because it is not. The manulas already discuss AI play, PBEM etc., so even when these are added in the maunuals will still be current.

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Post #: 52

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/18/2013 1:14:27 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
But the point here is this is NOT a computer game that will have the manuals updated. At least not for a long time. This is because the rules of the board game will have to change first.

But this isn't really true; in addition to the typical errata which appears for any manual, there are huge sections of the manuals which deal specifically with the computer game, not the boardgame. For instance, I'm in the middle of a 100 pp section on the various forms, and then there is the entire third manual (which is helpfully entitled Rules as Coded).

And so the fact that this is an adaptation of a board game does not mean that it is not a computer game. Of course there may be licensing restrictions, but other Matrix adaptations of in-print board games (ie, Conflict of Heroes) do not have the same.

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Post #: 53

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/18/2013 1:30:16 AM

Numdydar

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I agree with what you say, but the point I was making is that the manuals will not be changing anytime soon. Unlike games like War in the East and War in the Pacific AE which all have had massive changes to the game so that the manuals between release and now do not reflect exactly how the games currently work.

< Message edited by Numdydar -- 11/18/2013 2:30:42 AM >

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Post #: 54

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/18/2013 3:12:29 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
Unlike games like War in the East and War in the Pacific AE which all have had massive changes to the game so that the manuals between release and now do not reflect exactly how the games currently work.

Yup, agreed, and that is one of the attractions of this game to me--it appears to be based on a mature, well-thought out set of rules that have retained popularity for 25 years, which is no small feat.

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Post #: 55

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/18/2013 4:20:51 AM

Mynok

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
But the point here is this is NOT a computer game that will have the manuals updated. At least not for a long time. This is because the rules of the board game will have to change first.

But this isn't really true; in addition to the typical errata which appears for any manual, there are huge sections of the manuals which deal specifically with the computer game, not the boardgame. For instance, I'm in the middle of a 100 pp section on the various forms, and then there is the entire third manual (which is helpfully entitled Rules as Coded).

And so the fact that this is an adaptation of a board game does not mean that it is not a computer game. Of course there may be licensing restrictions, but other Matrix adaptations of in-print board games (ie, Conflict of Heroes) do not have the same.

The fact that it is an adaptation answers your point about the rules. Sure there are differences but the ties remain strong. Whether other adaptations that you reference differ is quite irrelevant.

As always I'm firmly of the belief that licensing restrictions are the issue here and I frankly have no problem with that. ADG has contributed more to my gaming experience than any other company in my life and I am totally in support of ensuring their success through this release.

< Message edited by Mynok -- 11/18/2013 5:21:46 AM >

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RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/18/2013 9:51:03 AM

Solaristics

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bo
I am not saying don't post, just keep it civil please.

Thanks Bo. Some of the language on this thread is drifting toward something I'd expect to see on a World of Tanks forum, not one for the more genteel and discerning folk that Matrix games attract

. Some people are happy to pay shipping and possible extra tax charges to get a physical copy of the game and manuals, and some would prefer to just get a digital copy of the game. Who's right? No one of course, it is just a matter of personal taste and preference. I don't think there is a need to insult each other over personal tastes and preference since we all seem to agree that the game is potentially awesome.

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Post #: 57

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/18/2013 2:18:01 PM

Numdydar

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No. The game IS awesome

Not potentially lol. However it does have the potential to get even better over time

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Post #: 58

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/18/2013 2:45:27 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
No. The game IS awesome Not potentially lol. However it does have the potential to get even better over time

Just curious, this game has been out for more than twenty years, do you think there's really much room for further improvement, or did you have in mind that the release of the computer version could give a boost to player numbers and general community interest?

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Post #: 59

RE: People not wanting the manuals - 11/18/2013 2:54:25 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
No. The game IS awesome Not potentially lol. However it does have the potential to get even better over time

Just curious, this game has been out for more than twenty years, do you think there's really much room for further improvement, or did you have in mind that the release of the computer version could give a boost to player numbers and general community interest?

warspite1

I think the game being on computer opens it up to lots of possibilities (realistic population nos. for one). As far as the board game is concerned, it has been constantly evolving since it began.

However, all that aside, I think there is enough to do with the game as is without worrying about the future i.e. optionals, net play, PBEM, AI.

Personally I say 100% focus on getting this right and there will be plenty of people interested in whatever comes next. Get this wrong and they will walk away in frustration and disappointment.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/18/2013 3:55:40 PM >

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