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Ketza (Axis) vrs unkown server game - 12/5/2013 3:26:58 PM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		So I opened up with no Lvow pocket against an unknown player who had posted a game on the server to just see what would happen. I only sent 2 extra divisions down south just to push a little more east towards Rovno. In the end of my turn it looked pretty much like the historical Axis advance in the south except one Panzer division went a little crazy driving along the Hungarian border.

I really made it quite tempting for my opponent to stand and fight even leaving some panzers out to dry.

I opened turn 2 to find he ran from the Black sea coast all the way north to the marshes. Upon doing some snooping around I could see the stacks of troops heading North on rail lines.

The Axis player really has no choice but to do a Lvow pocket.


Post #: 1
RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs unkown server game - 12/5/2013 6:19:50 PM   
Wuffer

 

Posts: 402
Joined: 6/16/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza


The Axis player really has no choice but to do a Lvow pocket.





yeah, you are right.

but, hmm, IMHO we need two things keep in mind. Firstly, the whole game was balanced with this infamous first move... Therefore curring this flaw would need a total redesign of the whole stuff which would not happen with this edition. I think (hope!) the dev's team have learned a lot now; the very first try of the pacific war leave a lot of areas for improvements, too.

Secondly, every game like this could always be only a abstraction, and not a simulation. As a matter a fact, the Germans could only advance after they have cleared the border region.

So, we have a big problem here: How to punish the Sowjet player in a way, even if he did not repeat the historical failures, that the Germans could threaten LG, Moskwa and the Ukraine?

Take for example the western Blitzkrieg against France: EVERY single strategy game make the Allis' side much weaker and the German army stronger... because otherwise France won't fall - even an average AI did a better job in defending France than the historical leadership. ?! :-)

So, let's take the big pocket; at least the chances of a German victory are realistically slim enough (meaning the annihilation of the western SU).



(in reply to Ketza)
Post #: 2
RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs unkown server game - 12/5/2013 11:20:23 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Katza you interested in playing me once all the late war swapping bugs are fixed?

I know your one of the best as Russian.

Sudden death rules ect.



< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/6/2013 12:21:17 AM >

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RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs unkown server game - 12/5/2013 11:25:55 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Hey, Pelton, if interested I might take you up on that. New blizzard rules included, those need more playtesting. For whatever reason people seem to be taking a pass on those, what's up with that.

And yes, I'll abide by 260 sudden death. It's not that I think that the war would have ended. It's just that I have no interest in grinding out a game with a crippled Soviet Union that more less inevitably leads to a German major 3 years later. This seems to me like a waste of time. As a practical matter anybody who got 260 VPs on me is somebody I would resign against anyways regardless. Competitive matches interest me, not wipeouts, and I'll cheerfully resign from a game I've bungled.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 12/6/2013 12:39:18 AM >

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RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs unkown server game - 12/6/2013 1:50:43 AM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		Flavius, when you play the German AI, what difficulty level do you play at? I'm trying one at Hard (125/80) at the moment.

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Post #: 5
RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs unkown server game - 12/6/2013 1:58:24 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Hard is a decent setting, but you should still beat the AI with it as a veteran. The problem with the AI is it tends to blunder into traps, and this ironically gets worse the stronger you make it. I suppose if turned up the dial to 11 and really jacked them up you could get beyond that. (Something truly crazy like 150+)

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RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs unkown server game - 12/6/2013 3:16:14 AM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		I may consider a game but I would rather watch you and Flavius go at it

By the way I resigned this one. I think this was a very good player playing ninja. No hope without a Lvow pocket of making any headway. My casualty count was down by 400k after turn 2 with no hope of a pocket to catch up.

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Post #: 7
RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs unkown server game - 12/6/2013 3:24:52 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I think playing random peeps on the server is kinda crazy. Too much possibility for bad faith or lopsided mismatches. If you're going to willingly forego the Lvov opener, there needs to be some concessions made on the other side, too.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 12/6/2013 4:26:36 AM >

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RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs unkown server game - 12/6/2013 8:38:05 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I think playing random peeps on the server is kinda crazy. Too much possibility for bad faith or lopsided mismatches. If you're going to willingly forego the Lvov opener, there needs to be some concessions made on the other side, too.


Ok Flaviusx, but I am sure I be the one in trouble of getting TKOed.

I have 3 on going, but 2 will be over soon. Only one guy seems to be good, using all the standard tactics of a good player.

Once the other 2 end and the next patch comes out it be a date.

Hopefully this issues with armaments and the Romanian swapping bugs will be fixed.


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RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs unkown server game - 12/6/2013 11:11:29 AM   
Oshawott

 

Posts: 1353
Joined: 10/30/2013
Status: offline
quote:

The Axis player really has no choice but to do a Lvow pocket.


Thanks for a very short game. But why start AAR if you quit on turn 2? Decisive factor was pocket in the north. I cut off two Corps on turn 2. Also additional corps cut off in the south.

Restart game with Lvov pocket?






Attachment (1)

(in reply to Ketza)
Post #: 10
RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs unkown server game - 12/6/2013 11:47:01 AM   
821Bobo


Posts: 2311
Joined: 2/8/2011
From: Slovakia
Status: offline 		I really doubt it was a factor.
1. He could easily reconnect the isolated units
2. You basically gave him Pskov

This is actually very favorable situation for Axis in north.

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Post #: 11
RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs unkown server game - 12/6/2013 1:33:02 PM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		The AAR was really just a statement about the Lvov pocket. Although there are some that say without it the Soviets can put up a more interesting defense the better play as Soviets is still to run which is a flaw within the game as which has been discussed many times.

You play a solid Soviet game from what I can tell. In the center I was running into your high CV armored units from the South and you were already counterattacking near Orsha driving back a motorized division on turn 2.

Sorry for the short game. I tried something different with a historical/realistic approach and it failed.

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Post #: 12
RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs unkown server game - 12/6/2013 1:59:16 PM   
Oshawott

 

Posts: 1353
Joined: 10/30/2013
Status: offline 		Thanks Ketza. We could always restart the game.

Bobo, I do not understand. Axis logistics runs after Soviet turn so both corps will not get fuel and will have very little to give to tanks on T3. Cutting of corps on T2 is very bad and will cause delay. Why is Pskov important?

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Post #: 13
RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs unkown server game - 12/6/2013 2:13:02 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

The AAR was really just a statement about the Lvov pocket. Although there are some that say without it the Soviets can put up a more interesting defense the better play as Soviets is still to run which is a flaw within the game as which has been discussed many times.

You play a solid Soviet game from what I can tell. In the center I was running into your high CV armored units from the South and you were already counterattacking near Orsha driving back a motorized division on turn 2.

Sorry for the short game. I tried something different with a historical/realistic approach and it failed.


You can put up a good defense without running away if there's no Lvov down south. But nobody seems to want to do this. It's a real chicken and egg problem.

Until it gets fixed I admit that some kind of house rules or concessions need to be made on the Soviet side to prevent them from going chicken.

The thing is Soviet players have been so conditioned to respond to ever more outre turn 1 openings where they indeed have to run in the south that they no longer have any idea of how to play otherwise. The whole thing has become ingrained in this game's playing culture on both sides and breaking it won't be easy. The real fix will have to wait until 2.0, but a good set of house rules might do in the meantime.

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RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs unkown server game - 12/6/2013 2:19:55 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oshawott

Thanks Ketza. We could always restart the game.

Bobo, I do not understand. Axis logistics runs after Soviet turn so both corps will not get fuel and will have very little to give to tanks on T3. Cutting of corps on T2 is very bad and will cause delay. Why is Pskov important?


Because if the Soviet player wants to make a point of it and reinforce Pskov he can seriously delay the Axis drive on Leningrad. I always massively reinforce the area myself as opposed to the Smolensk landbridge. (It's hard to cover both, you need to basically choose one or the other.)

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RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs unkown server game - 12/6/2013 5:49:59 PM   
SigUp

 

Posts: 1062
Joined: 11/29/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oshawott

Thanks Ketza. We could always restart the game.

Bobo, I do not understand. Axis logistics runs after Soviet turn so both corps will not get fuel and will have very little to give to tanks on T3. Cutting of corps on T2 is very bad and will cause delay. Why is Pskov important?

German tanks have little fuel on turn 3 anyway, as they are just that far from their railheads, so it actually isn't that big a deal. The delay of a tough defense around Pskov and the Velikaya would probably be greater.

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Post #: 16
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