Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Just one question.

Why is it that so many people state so confidently that if the price of something drops, then thousands of people will rush to buy what previously they wouldn't - and that the company selling automatically makes more profits??

On what basis is this fact or even probable?

If life was that simple then why would any company ever go out of business? Got a product? Not selling? No problem, just slash the price and all will be well.....

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Now, obviously we do not know how many copies of WITP-AE have ever been sold, but if a game as niche as Football Manager just falls shy of 100k players, what does that say about how many potential buyers there are of Matrix's catalogue, if the prices were low enough that people felt they could take it even if they ended up not liking the game?

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warspite1

I find that remark absolutely astonishing. Football Manager is being compared to the likes of WITP-AE in terms of niche status, in terms of actual (and potential) market size? I have no access to sales data for either - none whatsoever - but despite this I can, confidently, without any fear of contradiction, categorically state that that statement is just about as wrong as its humanly possible to be.

Fair enough. Replace "Football Manager" with "Train Simulator 2014".

2,276 players on Steam today (it's on the Top 100 Games Played list) for a title which one can easily argue is more "niche" than PC wargaming. And that's just people playing it today. The mind boggles how many people have it in their purchased games library.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

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ORIGINAL: Boomer78

And as to the 10% of Crusader Kings 2 being sold on GG, well, I'm one of those 10%. I can only try and put my money where my mouth is and try and support outlets like Matrix and GOG, sites that work in open competition with Steam.

I think that was his point...your hatred of Steam isn't enough to sway Paradox away from it.

Steam has a superior system which is customer-friendly, pro-game development, and works ever so well. Your hypothetical criticisms of what could happen aren't enough to outshadow that. I used to be exclusively GOG. Their lack of current titles lead me to GG, and Steam. You can even find an interview where the head of GG criticizes the Steam model, but Gamers Gate issues Steam codes, and did at the time he gave that interview.

The future is here, son.

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ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

Your assertion that Steam is also going to eventually take over all of these other companies isn't supported by facts either: GamersGate sells Steam activation codes for SteamWorks games, same with Amazon, same with GreenManGaming, same with a half-dozen other publishers. And you know what? Valve doesn't take a cut from any of those sales. How is that any indication that the company is some sort of malevolent force bent on monopolizing the market? The wide-spread adoption of the Steam platform didn't happen because Valve forced themselves upon the industry, it happened because the industry chose Valve. Nobody forced Slitherine to put up Panzer Corps on Greenlight.

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ORIGINAL: Alchenar

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I don't disagree with everything you say, but I see it as a function of vastly more supply than in the old days. (Again, same as the movie industry.) Sellers are reacting to the realities of the market, which is BOTH supply and demand.

Also, the games themselves have changed. When I bought a game in 1990 it came on one or two 3-in discs and I could count on getting a month or two, maybe, out of it. Many games I was done with in a weekend. I bought Skyrim in the Steam summer sale last July, with all three DLCs, for $29.95. I have over 400 hours in the game so far and I have played perhaps 15% of the content. OTOH, I paid full price for AE and I have thousands of hours with it since 2009. On the third hand, I bought the whole Half-Life franchise in the Summer Sale and I have yet to even launch one of the games. So it varies.

FWIW, last week in the Autumn sale Skyrim without the DLCs was on sale for $7.50. Should I be upset? No. I got to play it from July to now, plus the DLCs. I like having different choices at various times in the product's life cycle.

I'm sure publishers would love for it to be 1990 again, but with modern games. They'd love to have six months or a year at full price. But that's not the market now. I don't blame consumers a bit for using leverage they have. It's what markets do. Then they adjust.

Yeah, the idea that price drops are a 'slap in the face' to customers is really quite odd. Obviously everyone prefers to get the cheaper price, but by definition people pay what they are willing to pay. Someone who buys a game at full price on release day obviously values the game more than someone who sees it but decided to wait until they see it 50% off - these aren't the same customer: one of them really wants to play the game now, the other is kinda interested but just not enough.

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ORIGINAL: flibby

Steam represents the best way to get new players involved in wargaming. Currently Wargaming judging by this forum wont last 5 years like this. Like it or not, we need some fresh blood and a new generation that sit on Steam.

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

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ORIGINAL: Alchenar

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I don't disagree with everything you say, but I see it as a function of vastly more supply than in the old days. (Again, same as the movie industry.) Sellers are reacting to the realities of the market, which is BOTH supply and demand.

Also, the games themselves have changed. When I bought a game in 1990 it came on one or two 3-in discs and I could count on getting a month or two, maybe, out of it. Many games I was done with in a weekend. I bought Skyrim in the Steam summer sale last July, with all three DLCs, for $29.95. I have over 400 hours in the game so far and I have played perhaps 15% of the content. OTOH, I paid full price for AE and I have thousands of hours with it since 2009. On the third hand, I bought the whole Half-Life franchise in the Summer Sale and I have yet to even launch one of the games. So it varies.

FWIW, last week in the Autumn sale Skyrim without the DLCs was on sale for $7.50. Should I be upset? No. I got to play it from July to now, plus the DLCs. I like having different choices at various times in the product's life cycle.

I'm sure publishers would love for it to be 1990 again, but with modern games. They'd love to have six months or a year at full price. But that's not the market now. I don't blame consumers a bit for using leverage they have. It's what markets do. Then they adjust.

Yeah, the idea that price drops are a 'slap in the face' to customers is really quite odd. Obviously everyone prefers to get the cheaper price, but by definition people pay what they are willing to pay. Someone who buys a game at full price on release day obviously values the game more than someone who sees it but decided to wait until they see it 50% off - these aren't the same customer: one of them really wants to play the game now, the other is kinda interested but just not enough.

As a first-generation gamer (probably about 50,000 computer gamers total worldwide when I started playing in 1977 on university mini-mainframes) it amuses me to see the young blast away claiming that two years is "too long!" to wait for prices to reach rock bottom. I try to remember being 16 YO and that two years was forever. Now, two years? I can do two years like it's lunch. When you're 55 there's no bragging rights to having the latest and greatest. My friends are completely unimpressed that I beat COD on Extreme, or whatever. They're taking pictures of their grandchildren.

As for Steam pricing, in a bizarre way it's the sales which, for me, alleviate a lot of the downstream risk of them going poof! and disappearing. If I had thousands of dollars resting on their platform I'd worry. But I buy on sale and I have mere hundreds. In the same way I have thousands of dollars of games on 5-in floppies in storage bins in my basement, the discs probably demagnetized by now, if I someday can't play today's games it's not a big deal. I have Microprose's M1 Tank Platoon original in box, with manuals and keyboard overlays, plus discs. I also have a good 5-in floppy drive double bagged in anti-static plastic, in case I ever want to cobble up a 5-in DOS system and fire up those old classics. BUT I NEVER WILL. I might play an emulator to remind myself how horrible the graphics and sound were, but then I'll go back to Skyrim and walk around looking at the mountains. You can't go back, and you can't freeze the present.

Someday Steam will be gone, or evolve into something new. If some games get left behind it's the nature of the hobby. For now being able to get a game in ten minutes and be playing it in the time it would have taken me to put on enough clothes to survive the -15 F. weather outside for a drive to BestBuy is a pretty sweet deal. I don't miss the old days that much.

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
As a first-generation gamer (probably about 50,000 computer gamers total worldwide when I started playing in 1977 on university mini-mainframes) it amuses me to see the young blast away claiming that two years is "too long!" to wait for prices to reach rock bottom. I try to remember being 16 YO and that two years was forever. Now, two years? I can do two years like it's lunch. When you're 55 there's no bragging rights to having the latest and greatest. My friends are completely unimpressed that I beat COD on Extreme, or whatever. They're taking pictures of their grandchildren.

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ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
As a first-generation gamer (probably about 50,000 computer gamers total worldwide when I started playing in 1977 on university mini-mainframes) it amuses me to see the young blast away claiming that two years is "too long!" to wait for prices to reach rock bottom. I try to remember being 16 YO and that two years was forever. Now, two years? I can do two years like it's lunch. When you're 55 there's no bragging rights to having the latest and greatest. My friends are completely unimpressed that I beat COD on Extreme, or whatever. They're taking pictures of their grandchildren.

I think Alchenar's post was reacting more to what was said in the Scourge of War thread where supposedly putting a game on sale too soon is "slap in the face to the hardcore fans". It was an odd statement at best, contradictory at worst because a "hardcore fan" would have already bought the game so seeing it get put on sale shouldn't have mattered one way or the other, and a "regular fan" that maybe hadn't bought the game yet but was interested certainly wouldn't complain that he was able to buy a game for cheaper.

EDIT: Which is not to say that they should be putting a less-than-year-old game on sale. There are good reasons for doing that, but couching it in less than purely economic terms just sounds elitist.

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ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

But that was one of the funs of gaming back then, getting out in the 15 degree weather and rushing down to Software etc. or Babbages and getting the next best greatest (we thought) game on the market. I used to love browsing the computer section and looking at all the colorful boxes of magic. Now gaming has become drab and boring. You don't even get what you used to anymore in those boxes. No laminated maps, no printed manuals, no history written to read. Just a download. An the ai's today, I am just appauled at how lousy they are today. I still remember Warlords that had one of the best most challenging ai's of the times. I played and played and played it till I figured it out. Today's games ai's I can figure out the first game and that's playing on Vh/VH or hardest or impossible levels. The only present day game that has maintained it's level of ai performance is Civilization. I still can't beat "all" of the ai players on its highest difficulty I doubt anyone can it's just not possible the way they research and then exchange with each other so fast. They won't give me nuthin. lol I like that actually. At least one game holds its own today against a human.

I recently found an emulator for the C-64 and a site that has practically every c-64 game I own and that was great. Now I can go back and play some of those great fun games again when developers made games out of the love for it and not the profit. Lord British, Dave Landrey, even Sid Meier back then made games of quality, not crap for his daughter like he does today. Just a few names of some of the greats..less not forget to mention Norm Koger and Gary Grigsby as they are amoung the few who are still around. What's Norm Koger made in a long time though? after TAOW III?

But, many of you are right. Each one of us individually isn't going to change the market either way or the other no matter who's opinion. What will happen will happen. Time is ever moving on. Good things will come and bad things. It's just the bad things we should worry about and be prepared for is all. Mark my words it will happen someday just like it did to Rome. Nothing lasts forever. If the right amount of money comes along they won't give squat about your opinions or your feelings or what you want.

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ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
As a first-generation gamer (probably about 50,000 computer gamers total worldwide when I started playing in 1977 on university mini-mainframes) it amuses me to see the young blast away claiming that two years is "too long!" to wait for prices to reach rock bottom. I try to remember being 16 YO and that two years was forever. Now, two years? I can do two years like it's lunch. When you're 55 there's no bragging rights to having the latest and greatest. My friends are completely unimpressed that I beat COD on Extreme, or whatever. They're taking pictures of their grandchildren.

I think Alchenar's post was reacting more to what was said in the Scourge of War thread where supposedly putting a game on sale too soon is "slap in the face to the hardcore fans". It was an odd statement at best, contradictory at worst because a "hardcore fan" would have already bought the game so seeing it get put on sale shouldn't have mattered one way or the other, and a "regular fan" that maybe hadn't bought the game yet but was interested certainly wouldn't complain that he was able to buy a game for cheaper.

EDIT: Which is not to say that they should be putting a less-than-year-old game on sale. There are good reasons for doing that, but couching it in less than purely economic terms just sounds elitist.

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ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
As a first-generation gamer (probably about 50,000 computer gamers total worldwide when I started playing in 1977 on university mini-mainframes) it amuses me to see the young blast away claiming that two years is "too long!" to wait for prices to reach rock bottom. I try to remember being 16 YO and that two years was forever. Now, two years? I can do two years like it's lunch. When you're 55 there's no bragging rights to having the latest and greatest. My friends are completely unimpressed that I beat COD on Extreme, or whatever. They're taking pictures of their grandchildren.

I think Alchenar's post was reacting more to what was said in the Scourge of War thread where supposedly putting a game on sale too soon is "slap in the face to the hardcore fans". It was an odd statement at best, contradictory at worst because a "hardcore fan" would have already bought the game so seeing it get put on sale shouldn't have mattered one way or the other, and a "regular fan" that maybe hadn't bought the game yet but was interested certainly wouldn't complain that he was able to buy a game for cheaper.

EDIT: Which is not to say that they should be putting a less-than-year-old game on sale. There are good reasons for doing that, but couching it in less than purely economic terms just sounds elitist.

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ORIGINAL: flibby

Steam represents the best way to get new players involved in wargaming. Currently Wargaming judging by this forum wont last 5 years like this. Like it or not, we need some fresh blood and a new generation that sit on Steam.

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

When you're 55 there's no bragging rights to having the latest and greatest. My friends are completely unimpressed that I beat COD on Extreme, or whatever. They're taking pictures of their grandchildren.....

I don't miss the old days that much.

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ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm. A lot of good buzz among people I follow on the Internet, some very decent reviews, and...the price of a AAA title. And as solid a game as it is, it ain't AAA. I nearly, nearly purchased it, and at the last moment realized if I did I would be reinforcing Matrix's policy of high price tag for par to sub-par products. And encouraging them to raise prices again, and again, and again. So no purchase was made, and by the time it is reduced to an acceptable price I will have forgotten it.

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ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

It bears mentioning that EA keeps getting put on worst company lists because their Steam analogue, Origin, is a cheap cash-in that performs poorly, does not integrate well with their games, does not offer sales and discounts as often and as targeted as Steam's, and is basically a worse platform than Steam while forcing people to use a completely separate platform just for the hell of it.

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ORIGINAL: Perturabo

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ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm. A lot of good buzz among people I follow on the Internet, some very decent reviews, and...the price of a AAA title. And as solid a game as it is, it ain't AAA. I nearly, nearly purchased it, and at the last moment realized if I did I would be reinforcing Matrix's policy of high price tag for par to sub-par products. And encouraging them to raise prices again, and again, and again. So no purchase was made, and by the time it is reduced to an acceptable price I will have forgotten it.

I hope that by a AAA title you mean something like Command Ops, not Call of Duty 15 or Assassin's Creed 10?

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ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

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ORIGINAL: Perturabo

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ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm. A lot of good buzz among people I follow on the Internet, some very decent reviews, and...the price of a AAA title. And as solid a game as it is, it ain't AAA. I nearly, nearly purchased it, and at the last moment realized if I did I would be reinforcing Matrix's policy of high price tag for par to sub-par products. And encouraging them to raise prices again, and again, and again. So no purchase was made, and by the time it is reduced to an acceptable price I will have forgotten it.

I hope that by a AAA title you mean something like Command Ops, not Call of Duty 15 or Assassin's Creed 10?

I meant the latter. This company, and this hobby, does not live in a bubble. Expecting me to pay as much (or more) for average to below average quality as I would for a high quality, AAA title is an insult to my intelligence.

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ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

LOL Assassin's Creed a AAA title lmfao. It's hardly a AAA title in the wargames dept. Might be for kiddyland or candyland games but not wargames.

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ORIGINAL: Perturabo

I'd rather pay 10 minimum hourly wages for a game like Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm, than spend 10 hours playing Call of Duty for free, because the gameplay of the latter is an insult to my intelligence.

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ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

We're talking game purchases. Say we have a game that focuses on quantum mechanics and not wargames, but draws the customer away. It is relevant because the customer looks at both in their purchase decision. I said the hobby and Matrix do not live in a bubble. The same applies to Matrix's customers...well, most of Matrix's customers.

I personally am not a fan of either AC or COD, but I recognize the amount of man hours, work, and quality programming that goes into such a product. I also recognize (as in I have seen mentioned in these forums) that a heckuva lot of Matrix's customer base do play such games.

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ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

But if you want to say that the larger game industry has no effect on Matrix and its products, that AAA titles can be ignored, then you're dead wrong.

It is the equivalent of every auto manufacturer offering manual transmission at no extra charge, except for Matrix Motors. And when questioned on it Matrix Motors just says that customers wouldn't value their products if the car was cheaper in price, and Matrix Motors customers leap up and said "How can you compare this car to other cars? This one is from Matrix Motors!", as if that was explanation enough.

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ORIGINAL: Perturabo

When you pay 50+$ for a wargame, you get a game that isn't burdened by the poor taste of the lowest common denominator that the AAA companies have to pander to to amass their huge budgets.

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ORIGINAL: Perturabo
Also, what larger industry? Show me the AAA company that offers a realistic complex wargame (something on level of Command Ops: Battle of the Bulge) with AAA graphics for 50$.

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ORIGINAL: Perturabo

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ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

We're talking game purchases. Say we have a game that focuses on quantum mechanics and not wargames, but draws the customer away. It is relevant because the customer looks at both in their purchase decision. I said the hobby and Matrix do not live in a bubble. The same applies to Matrix's customers...well, most of Matrix's customers.

I personally am not a fan of either AC or COD, but I recognize the amount of man hours, work, and quality programming that goes into such a product. I also recognize (as in I have seen mentioned in these forums) that a heckuva lot of Matrix's customer base do play such games.

And no quality programming and research goes into complex wargames, right? Also, pricing of AAA games isn't related to their quality. You get expensive graphics not because you paid 50+$ but because millions of other people paid 50+$ too.
It has its cost, though. The cost is that you're not getting complex game mechanics, realism, etc. because they decrease the accessibility of the game.
When you pay 50+$ for a wargame, you get a game that isn't burdened by the poor taste of the lowest common denominator that the AAA companies have to pander to to amass their huge budgets. A game that is catered to taste of much smaller audience.

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ORIGINAL: Tomn

It is an objective fact that Matrix games tend to be more realistic than more mainstream titles.

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ORIGINAL: Tomn
ate to say that their "production values" are top-notch, whereas Matrix production values are generally mediocre at best, focusing as they do instead on realism and gameplay instead of things like interface design.

One thing I'd like to point out, by the way - AAA games don't cost a lot because "Hurf durf idiots are willing to pay through the nose for worthless rubbish." The same might be said of Matrix Games, after all, if you're of the subjective opinion that realism and the sort of gameplay found in wargames isn't worth much, so it hardly seems productive to insist that a difference of opinion indicates a deficiency of intelligence. No, AAA games cost a lot because it requires a metric crapton of cash to employ all the programmers, artists, designers, voice actors, workflow managers, accountants etc. etc. that are required to produce an AAA title. If it cost a lot to make something, then you're going to need to charge a high price for your products - anything less and you're basically a very strange charity. That's easily understood, but the same justification cannot stand for Matrix games which, for all the love and care which goes into them, cannot possibly cost as much as an AAA game to produce, making it much harder for a consumer to approve of and accept the price, which I believe is what Dutchman is getting at.

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ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

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ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

LOL Assassin's Creed a AAA title lmfao. It's hardly a AAA title in the wargames dept. Might be for kiddyland or candyland games but not wargames.

We're talking game purchases. Say we have a game that focuses on quantum mechanics and not wargames, but draws the customer away. It is relevant because the customer looks at both in their purchase decision. I said the hobby and Matrix do not live in a bubble. The same applies to Matrix's customers...well, most of Matrix's customers.

I personally am not a fan of either AC or COD, but I recognize the amount of man hours, work, and quality programming that goes into such a product. I also recognize (as in I have seen mentioned in these forums) that a heckuva lot of Matrix's customer base do play such games.

As for "kiddyland or candyland games", shall we take a close look at what Matrix has released for the iOS?

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ORIGINAL: Perturabo

I'd rather pay 10 minimum hourly wages for a game like Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm, than spend 10 hours playing Call of Duty for free, because the gameplay of the latter is an insult to my intelligence.

And that's your prerogative.

But if you want to say that the larger game industry has no effect on Matrix and its products, that AAA titles can be ignored, then you're dead wrong.

It is the equivalent of every auto manufacturer offering manual transmission at no extra charge, except for Matrix Motors. And when questioned on it Matrix Motors just says that customers wouldn't value their products if the car was cheaper in price, and Matrix Motors customers leap up and said "How can you compare this car to other cars? This one is from Matrix Motors!", as if that was explanation enough.

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ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
Matrix Motors is the Mercedes Benz of all the types of wargames out there of any type. So yeah people will see the difference. They know when they goto Matrix Motors they are getting a "specific" brand of wargames therefore all the other junk on other lots does not matter in the least. Just like a Mercedes Benz sticks out like a sore thumb on the highway so to does Matrix Motors games in the gaming world.

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ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Matrix Motors is the Mercedes Benz of all the types of wargames out there of any type. So yeah people will see the difference. They know when they goto Matrix Motors they are getting a "specific" brand of wargames therefore all the other junk on other lots does not matter in the least. Just like a Mercedes Benz sticks out like a sore thumb on the highway so to does Matrix Motors games in the gaming world.

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ORIGINAL: bairdlander

My 2 cents here is if a title released more than 5 years ago,reduce the price,but with Matrix ,never ...