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- 3/8/2001 5:58:00 AM

CaptainBrian

Posts: 59
Joined: 12/27/2000
From: California
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As far as self embellished war meoirs go, the U. S. has certainly had it's fair share... Two that come to mind are the works of Shelby Stanton, once considered one of the United States' leading Vietnam experts who claimed to have served in VN as a Special Forces Officer. It turns out he never did serve in Vietnam, much less with SF. The other is a retired USMC 1stSgt named Hambelen (sp) who lost a leg in a Parachute Jump and continued to serve. His book, called "One Tough Marine," includes accounts of his wartime service in VN. He was there, but did not serve in the capacity he claims to have. His former CO, a retired LtGen said the book should be titled "One Lying Marine." War will always marked by less than truthful and accurate "first hand accounts."

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Post #: 31

- 3/8/2001 7:03:00 AM

adantas

Posts: 241
Joined: 10/9/2000
From: S�o paulo - Brazil
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Norton: Heard the same thing about Zaitzev and Koenig. A made up fable... Saw the story on the History Channel about Suicide Missions and how it was played up. But, from what I read, there was never any German Officer Sniper. It even sounds odd. Low level German Army officers were generally leading from the front, but is strikes me as funny that a German officer would go 'hunting' in the ruins of Stalingrad. But, fact is stranger than truth... I may be wrong.... Though, it looks like a good movie... Will check it out, since the wife/daughter are away this weekend. Is it released this week? -Jeff

Hi folks, Did someone read the book "Stalingrad" from Vasilli Tchuikov, the commander of the russian forces into the city? It's a great book and tell many interestings aspects from the russian perspective of the battle. There, he talks about Zaitsev and the confrontation with a German sniper. There is no name for this sniper but he tells the this guy came from a sniper's school at Berlin. He was an instructor there. This guy killed two of the best russian snipers that were trained by Zaitsev and he decided to get the german. at the final confrontation Zaitsev killed the german. Well, I hope I can see this movie as soon as possible!!!!

--------------- Senta � Pua!!!

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Post #: 32

- 3/8/2001 9:14:00 AM

Charles22

Posts: 912
Joined: 5/17/2000
From: Dallas, Texas, USA
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Just seen the trailer, pretty neat. I could watch those planes, ships and such cinematics all day long. Man, I can't imagine such a feast on these 70 foot screens they have now. The best I've seen on such a big screen was SPR, and it didn't seem to have many epic shots. Those Stuka dive bombing remind me of the ME109s when you first saw them approaching that airfield for the strafe in Battle of Britain. Ed Harris sure looks the German part, and only could've been replaced by everyone's favorite actor playing a German, Rutger Hauer, who's too old for the part I suppose.

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Post #: 33

- 3/8/2001 8:54:00 PM

Matt

Posts: 20
Joined: 3/5/2001
From: Olympia, WA
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Speaking of Stalingrad movies and fiction, has anyone read the novel by Theodor Plevier? I believe that the 1957 and 1994 versions of the movie by the same name are based loosely (very loosely) on the book. Anyone who has seen a preview of Enemy at the Gates or the trailer have an opinion about how they compare? Anyone familiar with Plevier's background. His other war novels are rather cryptic and hard to follow with many contrasting political overtones (which I think he probably did just for effect). Matt

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Post #: 34

- 3/10/2001 9:33:00 PM

Randy Stead

Posts: 454
Joined: 12/23/2000
From: Ontario, Canada
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quote:

Originally posted by Charles22: Ed Harris sure looks the German part, and only could've been replaced by everyone's favorite actor playing a German, Rutger Hauer, who's too old for the part I suppose.[/B]

Let's not forget Jurgen Prochnow, the kaleun from Das Boot. I've seen him in some good films, and funnily enough he played a Russian general in Air Force One, but only really a cameo role. Another one of my favourite German actors is the guy who played the Tiger commander in Kelly's Heroes; can't recall his name offhand. Just love that stereotypical top to bottom facial scar!!!!! Also the actor who played the SS panzer group commander in A Bridge Too Far. He was also in The Wild Geese. I just love that scene in Bridge Too Far when he wants to blow up the bridge. His superior officer says, "Why do my generals want to blow up all my bridges?" [This message has been edited by Randy Stead (edited March 10, 2001).]

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Post #: 35

- 3/11/2001 5:24:00 AM

wildbear

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Joined: 3/10/2001
From: Tempe,AZ,USA
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It's "The Bridge." Available at www.belleandblade.com for about $20USD.

quote:

I must have seen it about 35 years ago. It was a black and white German film with English subtitles. I think it was called "The Bridge". It was set in a town in Germany in 1945 with the Americans advancing. A young German boy who has been trained in the Hitler Youth runs away from his school and tries to stop the Yankees. I remember one vivid moment when an American soldier fires a bazooka and catches his loader with the full back blast. Has anyone out there seen this film? If so how could I obtain a copy?[/B]

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Post #: 36

- 3/11/2001 7:32:00 AM

Charles22

Posts: 912
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From: Dallas, Texas, USA
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Randy Stead: Considering my last comments I was thinking of starting a new thread asking which actors did you like playing the role of Germans, but I thought it was a bit silly and decided not to. Well.....I won't start a new thread on it, but I will say that James Mason (liked him in any role, and did do a lot of military acting) was good, and though I'm not sure if I've ever seen him play a German or not, Christopher Walken would make a good one.

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Post #: 37

- 3/11/2001 8:54:00 AM

parusski

Posts: 4804
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From: Jackson Tn
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I just read "War of The Rats" a few months ago(hard to stop reading). I believe someone said, during a TV interview, that this is the book "Enemy at The Gates" is based on. From the trailer, it sure looks more like "WoTR" than "ENaTG"..

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Post #: 38

- 3/14/2001 4:21:00 AM

K_Tiger

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From: Germany
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Bill: Did you have the german Film 08/15 ??? its a 4 parter...in one of em..you can see a story about a german at-gunner...shooting with a real russian 76mm At-Gunn at 4-5 T-43..

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Post #: 39

- 3/14/2001 4:51:00 AM

zombie

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Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Canada
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quote:

Originally posted by parusski: I just read "War of The Rats" a few months ago(hard to stop reading). I believe someone said, during a TV interview, that this is the book "Enemy at The Gates" is based on. From the trailer, it sure looks more like "WoTR" than "ENaTG"..

It is based on "WOTR", In my copy of the book it said they were in production of the film.

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Post #: 40

- 3/17/2001 5:48:00 AM

kutalik

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From: austin,tx,usa
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Well, I cancelled my afternoon teaching section at the University (classic playing hooky) and went out an caught the first matinee showing of Enemy. Some Impressions: 1. Strong on ambiance (gritty with stunning sets). 2. Weak on actual comabt scenes. Too much emphasis on the Hollywoodized sniper duel -- not enough squad assualts. Although there were a few very stunning scenes of combat. Been playing too much SPWAW though I noticed from my reaction -- watching Soviet infantry get mowed down in full frontal assualts I kept saying to myself only advance one hex at a time you fools! 3. Made the Red Army look like a place when it wasn't being shot at or harangued by its commissars as a happening party down kind of military force. Fun, fun in the bunker with accordian dancing and Red Army soldier babes. Now gotta go back to playing Heroes of the Motherland for the third time...

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Post #: 41

- 3/17/2001 6:02:00 AM

Wild Bill

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No I haven't seen that one K-Tiger! So this is a documentary or a movie? Sounds fascinating...WB

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Post #: 42

- 3/17/2001 11:28:00 AM

Greg McCarty

Posts: 234
Joined: 6/15/2000
From: woodbury,mn,usa
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quote:

Originally posted by Fabs: The 21st Panzer Division was certainly not made up of convicts, and did not fight in Russia in 1941, 1942, 1943 or 1944. It was one of Rommel's Afrikakorps divisions, and fought agains the Allies in north Africam Italy and Normandy. It never fought in Russia, and fought on the Eastern Front only at the end of the war, where its bulk was made prisoner by the Russians. I don't know much about the 22nd Panzer Division. Convicts and other such personnell tended to fight in penal battaions. These were infantry units mostly, and were given the rottenest jobs and poor equipment. This business of a Panzer Division made up entirely of convicts and given the most dangerous jobs is pure fiction, as are most of Sven Hassel's stories. He can't have served in Cassino, as the line there was held by Fallschirmjaeger and elements of two Panzer-grenadier Divisions. No Panzer Division took part in the battle of Cassino, as the terrain was totally unsuitable. He just seized on popular episodes of the war and inserted his bunch of misfits into it, to get a good war pot-boiler for naive little boys like me to feast on. They did make good reading, I'm almost ashamed to admit. The movie sucked.

Read a number of Sven's books way back when. It was not a division; it was the 21st Penal Panzer Regiment. And even that was probably ficticious. I can't imagine the Whermacht entrusting a precious resource like tanks to convicts. Sven H. was a great story teller, but he has been pretty much debunked as an actual soldier. The story goes that he spent a short period in a bicycle unit. He spent much of his civilian life during the war in bars talking "bull" with German troops. The time was not wasted, as is evidenced by his prolific writing. There is even a photo of him somewhere on the net dressed in what is said to be a bogus, and inappropriately decorated panzer officers uniform. He evidently passed himself off this way for a time. According to testimony of people who knew him, he was something of a "Ner-do-well" with a history of petty crime convictions. But --his writing was evidently successful to a degree, but by all accounts he did not serve in the German army.

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Post #: 43

- 3/17/2001 11:44:00 AM

Greg McCarty

Posts: 234
Joined: 6/15/2000
From: woodbury,mn,usa
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by kutalik: Well, I cancelled my afternoon teaching section at the University (classic playing hooky) and went out an caught the first matinee showing of Enemy. Some Impressions: 1. Strong on ambiance (gritty with stunning sets). 2. Weak on actual comabt scenes. Too much emphasis on the Hollywoodized sniper duel -- not enough squad assualts. Although there were a few very stunning scenes of combat. Been playing too much SPWAW though I noticed from my reaction -- watching Soviet infantry get mowed down in full frontal assualts I kept saying to myself only advance one hex at a time you fools! 3. Made the Red Army look like a place when it wasn't being shot at or harangued by its commissars as a happening party down kind of military force. Fun, fun in the bunker with accordian dancing and Red Army soldier babes. Now gotta go back to playing Heroes of the Motherland for the third time...

Yup! Movie was great. Short on combat scenes, but what there was, was quite good. Well done overall. Rachel Weisz exibits a great fanny shot. (slap my face -repeatedly). I've got a book published some ten or more years ago; (The Onslaught) some may have seen it, of color photos of scenes from Stalingrad during the siege. They were developed after being sent home by some forgotten soldier, but first spent about 40 some years undeveloped in a West German attic. They are a little washed out in some cases, but there is a few good shots of assault troops, and a nearly new StuGIIIf in the background.

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It is better to die on your feet
than to live on your knees.

--Zapata

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Post #: 44

- 3/17/2001 12:34:00 PM

tracer

Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
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quote:

Originally posted by Yogi Yohan: In Alan Clarckes "Barbarossa" Ch 13 there's an account from a Russian sniper who fought a German "super-sniper" in Stalingrad, namely the head of the sniper school at Zossen, SS-Standartenf�hrer Hans Thorwald. The name of the Russian sniper given the task of taking out Thorwald is not given. In this account, both the German and the Russian use telescopic sights. I would be very surprised if this is not the story behind the film "Enemy at the gates". One wonders why "Koenig" is a better name than "Thorwald" according to Holywood...

It just hit me; Koenig is the German word for king. Maybe in one of the re-tellings of the story since '42 somebody decided to give the 'top' German sniper a more symbolic name. There's also some great shots of the movie set at http://www.enemyatthegatesmovie.com/ After you download a viewer you can rotate 360 degrees and pan up and down.

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Post #: 45

- 3/18/2001 7:49:00 AM

Tiger

Posts: 198
Joined: 6/20/2000
From: Memphis, TN USA
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Greg McCarty: Yup! Movie was great. Short on combat scenes, but what there was, was quite good. Well done overall. Rachel Weisz exibits a great fanny shot. (slap my face -repeatedly). I've got a book published some ten or more years ago; (The Onslaught) some may have seen it, of color photos of scenes from Stalingrad during the siege. They were developed after being sent home by some forgotten soldier, but first spent about 40 some years undeveloped in a West German attic. They are a little washed out in some cases, but there is a few good shots of assault troops, and a nearly new StuGIIIf in the background.

I have to say I was disappointed with the movie. Too melodramatic, and unrealistic. I don't want to spoil it for anyone, so I won't go into detail. Suffice it to say, they did a fair job on the mystique of the sniper, but a poor job showing them in action ..I know I know, it would be long and boring to represent the sniper as he was: methodical and slow acting. Maybe I'll think more of this movie over time, but it doesn't hold a candle to PRyan.

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Post #: 46

- 3/18/2001 7:23:00 PM

Marcus Wendel

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That duel never happend. Here is what Anthony Beevor (author of Stalingrad) had to say: "Indeed, the whole story of the sniper duel is fiction. There is absolutely no trace in the German military archives or SS records of SS officer Heinz Thorwald. Also there is absolutely no report of the duel in the Red Army files which concentrated on sniper activities (the daily reports of the Political Department of Stalingrad Front to Moscow) This great story can be classified as Sovjet propaganda." The quote below is from a BBC News article: "Mr Beevor, whose acclaimed tome Stalingrad is rapidly becoming the definitive text on the battle, said while Zaitsev was a real figure there was no evidence to support the existence of Koenig. He said: 'I've been through the Soviet Ministry of Defence's archive in Podolsk and there is no record of such a duel.' 'If it had taken place the Soviet propaganda machine would have leapt on it.'" Here is what Martin Pegler (Curator of Weapons, The Royal Armouries, UK) had to say: "While researching for a book on sniping, I used some contacts at Russian museums to look into the veracity of the much reported fight between Zeitsev and Koenig [Thorvald]. Despite the fact that Russian company and regimental records were faithfully kept even throughout the worst days of the Stalingrad seige, nowhere is this duel reported in war diaries. This would seem to be an odd omission, particularly in the face of the cult of 'Sniperism' that the Soviet press were so keen to extoll. I tend to agree with Anthony Beevor's opinion that the shooting match never actually happened and was the result of propoganda reporting by the press who were always keen to promote new 'Heroes of the Soviet Union'. Apparently Zeitsev himself never confirmed or denied the event, an odd attitude in view of its apparent historical importance." For info on the German (and other axis) forces, visit http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/ For info on the Soviet forces, visit http://www.skalman.nu/soviet/ /Marcus

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Post #: 47

- 3/18/2001 8:14:00 PM

Kluckenbill

Posts: 278
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From: Lancaster, PA, USA
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Here are my picks, pans and questions about Enemy at the Gates. I saw it (only once) last night so these are just quick observations. The computer animated graphics were generally very good. At least I assume the German planes and armored vehicles were computer generated, I can't imagine thay modeled a bunch of JU88's, Stuka's and Pz 3's that well. The Russian stuff was less accurate. Mostly their tanks were T34/85's (also the turret on the armored train) which, of course, weren't around at Stalingrad. The small arms seemed very accurate to me. I also thought the portrayal of the ruins was convincing. I don't know how much was constructed and how much was computer animated, but I guess that was their intent after all. Let's not mention the silly love triangle, but in general the portrayal of all the women as soldiers in the Red Army is quite different than what I have read. I have read about Russian soldiers having to share rifles in WW1, but not in WW2. Also doesn't it seem more likely that the troops would have been sent to the battle as part of a unit with officers and that they would have had at least some rudimentary training and leadership? I agree with the earlier post that the portrayal of off duty hours for the Russians was way too pleasant. I believe that most of the soldeirs slept where they fought, not just in Stalingrad, but also elswhere in the war on all fronts. Regarding the marksmanship, can a sniper really shoot a wire at 150 meters? I'm not a very good shot with a rifle myself, but this does seem a bit far fetched to me. I think I'll have another look at it later this week so maybe I can refine my opoinions then.

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Post #: 48

- 3/19/2001 1:15:00 AM

Greg McCarty

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From: woodbury,mn,usa
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kluckenbill: .... I have read about Russian soldiers having to share rifles in WW1, but not in WW2. Also doesn't it seem more likely that the troops would have been sent to the battle as part of a unit with officers and that they would have had at least some rudimentary training and leadership? ..... Trust me; at times during the campaign, it was this bad and worse. There is a well documented account of a three wave Soviet charge of about 400 men each, upon company G of a German infantry Battalion that found itself bypassed and stuck in a village on a supply route; during the height of the Soviet 41/42 winter offensive. Most of the Russians were rural conscripts, often gathered by the NKVD at gunpoint. After the first two waves had been essentially cut down, the third wave charged, weaponless, instructed to pick up the guns of the fallen comrads on the snow. The third wave met the same fate. The German unit eventually withdrew somewhat worse for wear, under massive pressure, and over a period of a week, crept back to German lines. It was not until 43 that this sort of thing diminished, and the luxury of training and proper equipage became more the norm.

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Post #: 49

- 3/20/2001 12:19:00 PM

K_Tiger

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From: Germany
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Hi Bill.. 08/15..was an black & withe Film..maybe made in the war or short later...Its a german made film..and dont think it would exist an english translation... I have only see the second and may the last part ... The second part..as i say before..it was a story about an german at gunner. He recived a medal for 7 Tank kills..and then he was back transfered to the front....it was in the winter time.. Nothing happend on his frontline...after the russian testet the frontline..with 4-5 T-43...his major..(a real bad ass)..(hated the guy..while he recived a cross..unlike him)...telled the "hero"..to engage the tanks. Unfortunaly they hade the choice betwen <-wrong written?? ;)....a 105mm field gun and a 76mm captured..at gun...in the snow, there was no way to bring the 105er...on to the hill from where they would shoot...but the at gun hade only 5 bullets left....after all.. 5 shoots..5 hits he needed..i was sitting on my chair..and spoke loud with me.."come on guy..hit them".. ;)..but the first two shoots were missed..he hit two of the tanks.. after a while the tanks knows from where comes the fire...overan the pak...and killed him. My oppinnion...i must have the other parts..soon... Its more about to survife on the front as a german soldier...no blood eyed "heil" cryed germans as in other films... The best actor in the film is "kowalsky"...a driver for high ranked officers...he dealed with all stuff..and hade allways a (dunno the rigth word for)..nice comment..for the most of the orders from his generals...a must love him guy... The fourth part wassnt so war like..more antiwar.. the two mainactors (inkluding kowalsky ;) )...searched for a murder... But the best spell..was (a hitleryouth ask him, after building a tankobstakle with woods).. how long will this hold of the us tanks..he answered...hmm.. may 30 minutes...they come..hold on..laugth 28 minutes...then drive over in 2.... Sorry for my limited english...

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Post #: 50