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RE: T25 - 12/13/2013 12:12:41 AM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		This shows how Saper222 pulled back, and I advanced, mostly without combat He was 3 hexes back infront of Moscow, so I mostly just moved up and smacked a few regiments around. I expect he will keep retreating, he has no reason to defend forward. If he continues to do that I may start leapfrogging my armies, resting some on the rail lines to save trucks and advancing a select few with a lot of air supply. We will see if that works.

In the Moscow area the terrain is more favorable, and Saper222 is trying to hold a bit, but still mostly retreating. In the air losses were 221 to 84, which is acceptable, in the farther North Saper222s planes would not fly so I had some fun bombing his airbases and killed 30 fighter/fighter bombers and 21 bombers in addition to the usual mess of recon aircraft. There are still a lot of damaged arm factories, though they are all under 50. I continue to evac factories from anywhere near the front, by the time Spring comes it will all be in the rear and my production will likely be about as high as I can make it.





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Post #: 271
T26 South - 12/15/2013 3:03:39 PM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		The second turn of Blizzard goes much the same as the first, casualties are a little higher, about 15,000 on a side. Saper222 continues to withdraw, I continue to chase, the game continues to be both predictable and a-historical, unfortunately this seems to be baked into the design.

Tactically more of my moves are optimal, even in places where Saper222 is putting troops in the front I am able to advance several hexes, in fact the infantry armies seem to advance at about the same rate against opposition as they do if there is no opposition. Cavalry goes faster, and thanks to high moral and air supply my cav sometimes advances as many as 5 hexes a turn.

In the air I am thinking that some big attacks on Saper222s forward fighter bases early in the turn is generating a dividend later in the turn. T25 I hit the fighters first, and did ground combat second. The early ground combats shows a mix of fighters and bombers coming to support the ground troops. In the later combats only bombers showed up, and I shot a number of them down. Over all losses were 80 to 204 if my memory is correct, I am hoping that the fighter groups will also see experience gains.

In the South my progress is blocked because the river will not freeze, but the big army along the Don seems to have drawn Saper222s attention. Further North an even larger army is coming South, I’m pretty certain I can get Stalino well before the mud, maybe I can catch some Germans in the process, but its more likely they will all run away. Saper222 and I are able to calculate the movement rates of each others armies at a glance, so it nearly impossible for either of us to create a major pocket.

I’m enjoying the game, and temped to start another, but the design problems are a serious obstacle for me and have me thinking about War in Flames instead. Some of Michael T’s comments resonate very strongly for me. I also dislike the positive feedback loops, and especially the highly deterministic nature of the 1941 game. There is a hard coded need for the Soviets to do the opposite of what they actually did in from June to November 1941, and a hard coded need for the Germans to do the opposite of what they did starting in December.

Map of the South, showing where I am going, I doubt I will get a pocket here, though I am going to drop a bunch of paras to try.





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Post #: 272
RE: T26 South - 12/15/2013 3:23:36 PM   
SigUp

 

Posts: 1062
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Status: offline 		I think with the new blizzard rules the times of those massive runaways in the winter will more or less be over. In the South retreats in December will be unavoidable, but in the Centre and North the Germans can really stand and fight.

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Post #: 273
Road to nowhere - 12/17/2013 12:16:54 AM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		I thought I would post one map of the least important front, so here it is. Basically I am trying to keep the Finns off the rail line so that I can use some of the Leningrad front troops to beat up the Germans.






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Post #: 274
RE: Road to nowhere or Moscow - 12/17/2013 12:24:30 AM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		I'm approaching the gates of Moscow, its been a hard slog but its going my way for all the usual reasons. I have gotten better at merging units in to keep momentum up, and using air supply. These armies are all infantry, so the going is a bit slower and there are no pockets to speak of.

I am showing the rail because I think its the critical feature. I've already started rotating armies through to keep them fresh.

This is mostly a grid, casualties were higher this turn, 17k German and 25k Russian. No where near enough, but better than 10k.






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Post #: 275
caught one - 12/17/2013 12:54:01 AM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		I don't want these guys to rout, I want them off the map and in a Siberian camp. The will get surrounded next turn, and wiped out T29.

Still no where near enough, but something.






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Post #: 276
South - 12/17/2013 1:06:07 AM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		I'm finally over the river. Almost all my Cav is in the South, and I may catch a few more Germans near Rostov.

Paradrops have proven almost impossible for me, I follow the instructions and they seem to fly at random, which is why there is one small group of them on a hex in the wrong place. I was not expecting much from them, but the interface is one more example of the many examples of really bad coding and poorly thought out design in the game. I'm still on the fence about the game as a whole, because there is a lot that is good, but there is also a lot that is very poorly thought out.

Saper222 is fortifying the Stalino complex, I think he will start running for it this turn. The problem for me is lack of supply, I can get there, but when I do the rail head will be far behind. At the moment I am racing to see if I can capture some of his stragglers as they retreat. I may put most of my army on rail to Moscow shortly after, as the railhead will be too far back for me to advance much in the remaining winter.






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Post #: 277
Thoughts and status - 12/17/2013 1:39:16 AM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		Stats wise the Soviets are holding steady at about 5.5 million men. Guns is up to 50,000 from 30k a few months ago, tanks over 3500 and planes just under 7200

Most of my armies moral is in the 40s with some in the 50s and a few 60s. I’m starting to look at strategies for boosting moral in select armies for the 1942 battles, I think it may be helpful to show up with a bunch of 55 or 60 moral infantry divisions and Cav corps at certain moments. The Cav is better, much of it is 50 moral 50 experience, and climbing.

In the air the best Soviet pilots are in P40s, but there are other fighter bomber units climbing the experience curve in all I think I have 5 air groups in the 80s. Moral has not been a problem for the airforce since September, and now its just a question of rotating units for maximum effect. Experience is a problem for the bomber groups, they take heavy attrition each turn and the climb into the 60s is slow.

At this point I think I have the measure of the game, which is a very different thing from thinking I will beat Saper222 this time. One of my concerns is this quote from Pelton “another boring turn one and two” written as his game against Bozo restarts. It’s not very good that invading Russia is boring.

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Post #: 278
RE: South - 12/17/2013 1:41:23 AM   
Bozo_the_Clown


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quote:

Paradrops have proven almost impossible for me, I follow the instructions and they seem to fly at random,


If you can't drop the brigade into a specific hex then that hex is occupied. Unfortunately the para brigade you dropped is depleted. No combat is required to displace it. The Axis unit just has to move and the brigade is gone forever. Did you drop during day? Where your transports intercepted and lots of them shot down? Did you use Li-2 or TB-3G? How many transport regiments did you have in the airbase?

Did I mention that I like paratroopers?

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Post #: 279
RE: Thoughts and status - 12/17/2013 1:46:40 AM   
Bozo_the_Clown


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quote:

It’s not very good that invading Russia is boring.


It's boring for him because he has everything written down and plays the first turns exactly the same way over and over again. It's the SHC players job to figure out how to screw up his perfect game plan. I find that very motivating.

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Post #: 280
RE: Thoughts and status - 12/17/2013 2:01:17 AM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		@ Bozo, the answer to your question is I dropped it by accident, the interface is such a mess that I could not tell I had it selected, and it went when I clicked on my computer screen to adjust the map. Your note that para's cannot drop into occupied hexes is helpful that might have mattered some. I realize its possible to drop them, and I have read your posts on the subject and the rules, but you must agree that the way its done is a total mess.

If you have any other pointers I would appreciate them. I have paras sitting on bases on rail lines with one or two groups of Li-2s that will not go, which may be because I was targeting an occupied hex. I think the group that went on its own was flying Li-2s that were intercepted, but that is neither here nore there, as I would never have flown them unescorted to that hex on purpose.

"It's boring for him because he has everything written down and plays the first turns exactly the same way over and over again." The fact that we can explain why its boring does not change the fact that it is boring, or that boring is bad in a game. If there is an optimal T1 then its bound to be boring, at least for the Germans. If there was an optimal T4 or T127 that turn would also be dull. Boring should be designed out, not in.

< Message edited by Tom Hunter -- 12/17/2013 3:04:19 AM >

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Post #: 281
RE: Thoughts and status - 12/17/2013 2:28:22 PM   
jwolf

 

Posts: 2493
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Status: offline 		It looks like you'll bag several units between Voroshilovgrad and Rostov.  It's a shame the darn river took so long to freeze and kept you from making those moves earlier.  How many NKPS units do you have?  I'm wondering what your rail repair capability is at this point and if you'll be able to make enough rail progress in the South to resume winter operations there.  Good luck with the rest of your blizzard.

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Post #: 282
RE: Thoughts and status - 12/17/2013 3:02:23 PM   
Bozo_the_Clown


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quote:

If you have any other pointers I would appreciate them. I have paras sitting on bases on rail lines with one or two groups of Li-2s that will not go, which may be because I was targeting an occupied hex.


Check your % Required to Fly setting. It should be 0 or 5%.

Determine whether he has night fighters. If not drop your airborne brigades at night.

Don't have more then one airborne brigade at a single airbase because the men not participating in the air drop get pushed into the other brigade and then it's impossible to drop them.

Keep sorties as low as possible but within reason. Otherwise your brigades will land depleted.

Make sure you have enough transport regiments in your airbases. One Li-2 regiment is not enough. I tend to have all my transport regiments in two airbases.

The air drop system is awkward. But once you've figured it out it's easy. As a matter of fact it's way too easy. I've stopped using them in 41 but would always use them during blizzard and later in the war.


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Post #: 283
RE: Thoughts and status - 12/17/2013 6:27:07 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		He finds T1 boring because its always the same. T1 never has any change in deployments. Some subtle setup options for both sides would make T1 much more interesting. For me T1 still retains interest because I have new ideas on the backburner all the time

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Post #: 284
RE: Thoughts and status - 12/17/2013 8:36:58 PM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		Michael T gets my point perfectly, and he is right about solutions, it does not take anything dramatic, just don't make things the same.

Saper222 did not like the grip I was starting to get on his armies, so he ran. Which is exactly what I did with him in the first part of 41.

Bozo thanks for the suggestions, I will give them a try.

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Post #: 285
RE: Thoughts and status - 12/17/2013 10:42:35 PM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

He finds T1 boring because its always the same. T1 never has any change in deployments. Some subtle setup options for both sides would make T1 much more interesting. For me T1 still retains interest because I have new ideas on the backburner all the time


Besides that, the First Turn Rules determine outcomes too strongly. Some more variability in prospective combat results would be also a good thing. Knowing where to find the enemy and knowing what forces you need to bring to bear so you're guaranteed to be winning don't make T1 very thrilling.

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Post #: 286
Boring vs Not Boring - 12/18/2013 12:09:55 AM   
Tom Hunter


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Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		This is one of the things that makes the start of both World in Flames and WiTP Admirals Edition more fun than the start of this game. In WiF the set up is up to you, so the game starts interesting every time. We all know Poland will fall, but we try to make it fall slower (allies) or faster (axis) its fun, even though we know the end result at the start.

WiTP AE is fun because neither side knows what will be left after the Pearl Harbor attack goes in. Both player watch the attack hoping for a good result and dreading a bad one. The truth is neither one matters much, but its still pretty damn exciting.

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Post #: 287
RE: Boring vs Not Boring - 12/18/2013 12:32:11 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		The devil is in the details here. A too freeish setup tends to strongly favor the Soviet. It would be very difficult to do worse than the historical setup.

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Post #: 288
RE: Boring vs Not Boring - 12/18/2013 12:44:16 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		The variance only need be slight.

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Post #: 289
RE: Boring vs Not Boring - 12/18/2013 1:44:34 AM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		I am much more in Michael T's camp, Flaviusx you are technically correct, it would certainly be possible to break the game by doing it wrong. However small variants would make it much more exciting. It could be as simple as giving some Soviet units full movement, or moving some of them one hex in a random direction, or even randomizing the zoc effect for a set of the Soviet units on T1.

The truth is WiTP is not effected much by sinking 2 American battleships or three at Pearl, but everyone watches it, and it makes the turn much more interesting. The same would likely be true of changing the number of units in frontline pockets on T1 in War in the East.

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Post #: 290
RE: Boring vs Not Boring - 12/18/2013 2:05:48 AM   
lastkozak


Posts: 267
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Status: offline 		One excellent way to deal with this problem, is to have an optional campaign start date and set up. It begins with the German units deployed historically for the date June 26th. The Soviets begin their turn and the opening attacks are carried out and result with the same historical results.

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Post #: 291
T28 - 12/18/2013 2:12:16 AM   
Tom Hunter


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Status: offline 		Saper222 sent me a note saying I had my first German unit surrounded this turn (1 on the map) as it turns out the real number is three, two regiments and a division. I was not able to grab more this turn, and its not really enough, but it is nice to get something.

One of the interesting things about this offensive is that punching the empty bag in the center is turning out to be a good way to capture units, but a bad way to build guards. The troops that have the most wins, and therefore the best chance of converting, are way up North in the Leningrad front. As near as I can tell you need 11 wins to have a chance of getting a guards conversion, and I’ve got one unit at 10, two at 8, and 5 at 7. Many have none. This is one of the many things worth focusing on early in the game, though it does ad huge time overhead to look the units up as you move them.

My motor pool is declining, its now 139k (117) I plan to shift effort up to the Moscow front soon, because the rail heads are much farther forward there. I have 12 RR engineers on map, and am building three more. I would be in much worse shape if Saper222 had continued attacking in the snow, but its still a tough situation to supply my armies.

At the moment I am working on building guards, preparing defense lines, and trying to capture some German units. I’m pleasantly surprised, Saper222 stayed fairly far forward and I think I am getting a few more than he expected, but German casualties over all are very low, 11k this turn.

An interesting point, Saper222 was able to counter attack on a substantial scale last turn, causing 9 retreats often on hexes that had two divisions. Maybe the original blizzard is not that bad? I’m really not sure, I do not have enough data points.

Air war was 60 Axis to 214 Soviet, not a particularly good turn, but not a disaster either, another slow step forward. Factories continue to evacuate, by the time Saper222 starts to advance again there will be nothing anywhere near the front. I think he is still likely to get an auto victory, and I have just discovered that the victory locations display is not working at the moment, if that continues he may find winning much easier. We'll see.





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RE: T28 - 12/18/2013 5:23:27 AM   
Toidi

 

Posts: 200
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Status: offline 		You are doing very fine with the offensive. You need to keep on going till February, every win you get give you morale and decreases morale of the enemy.

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Post #: 293
RE: T28 - 12/18/2013 9:24:43 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
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Status: offline 		Sapers performance during Blizzards and 1942 summer have been below average at best in his past AAR's.

He rely heavy on 41 after that he has next to nothing for exp, in this case he should not be losing men during blizzard and should easly win out by July.

Your doing much better then I expected, keep up the good work.

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Post #: 294
RE: T28 - 12/18/2013 12:04:58 PM   
Tom Hunter


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Status: offline 		I’m guessing, but I think Saper222 is distracted by his other games. I’m not sure if his strategy has worked or not, he said he was trying one.

For me this game was intentionally about the learning curve. I started knowing very little, figured out german movement rates by T3, Soviet airforce by T10, how to counter attack by T12 or so but could not implement much because of the condition of my army and Saper222s excellent play. It was not until the last few turns that I started looking into how to create guards, or cause them to come into being.

It’s very possible Saper222 will get an auto victory. Last turn I tried looking up the victory locations and they would not even show on the map. They have before, so I am not sure what is up with that but its certainly going to make the defense more interesting.

Saper222 counterattacked hard around Rostov, we will be going at it hammer and tongs down there.

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Post #: 295
RE: T28 - 12/18/2013 12:27:04 PM   
SigUp

 

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Status: offline 		Victory locations are only shown for smaller scenarios, as they assign VPs to specific cities. In grand campaigns the rule is: 1 VP for a city, 3 VPs for an urban and 5 for a heavy urban hex. Additionally the capital of a country counts another 5 points.

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Post #: 296
sample combat T29 - 12/18/2013 3:43:55 PM   
Tom Hunter


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Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		This map shows a few things.

You can see me trying to steer the RR repair by blocking an engineer with a 3 unit stack. Something I am sure has frustrated other Soviet players. I've got 17 of them in my OB, two are new with low ToE, 15 are good and working, but sometimes in odd places.

I squashed my first infantry regiment, capturing over 2,000 Germans, in retrospect I could have gotten two wins out of it and brought my army that much close to guards status. Further south you can see (the attack on the screen) that I took advantage of Saper222 leaving a German hex east of the starting position of the 256th infantry. My cavalry attacked, pushing the Germans towards my advancing hoards and giving several of my units one more win towards guard status. I also noticed that Kharkov is not very far away any more, so I'm thinking that is where this group may end up.

Supply is an issue I am getting farther from the railhead.




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Post #: 297
If you are new read this post - 12/18/2013 9:05:52 PM   
Tom Hunter


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Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		This is the first time I have seen the Red Airforce gain superiority and bomb the Germans more heavily than they bombed me. So all the turns of bombing to train are starting to pay.

Note that this is a one hex front with three divisions and a brigade attacking. I put the division and an armored brigade on reserve right behind the attacking stack, and the infantry joined in. If you are a veteran this is familiar, but for new players this is a very important tactic.

This may slow Saper222s ability to get out of Rostov, perhaps I will bag an additional German infantry division in a turn or three.




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Post #: 298
RE: If you are new read this post - 12/19/2013 4:08:28 AM   
Wuffer

 

Posts: 402
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Status: offline 		Keep on.
Forget all the bla about sudden death or victory points, you are playing for surviving.
Really! This guy is a real killer, if not this year, next saison will be even much more harder...
(Yes, I assume you have realized that by now :-) , I only repeated it for your best(?) generals, which are still arguing over the summer debacle instead of giving advice...)

IMHO you should not merge to many brigades into div's, you will need every counter next summer.
The German Army is neither beaten nor dead, she's only in short hibernation. Beware, beware...!!! With the first light in early spring you will face them in old strengh





< Message edited by Wuffer -- 12/19/2013 5:11:28 AM >

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Post #: 299
RE: sample combat T29 - 12/19/2013 8:50:31 AM   
821Bobo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

You can see me trying to steer the RR repair by blocking an engineer with a 3 unit stack. Something I am sure has frustrated other Soviet players.


Thats great idea Tom. Please let us know if it is working. I will try it myself

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