RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs

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RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/15/2013 8:29:04 PM

rmonical

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Get your hands on Panzer Tracts 23 for all tank production or try the tank-specific series of the other Panzer tracts variants.

To summarize again:
IVg: 1927 from 3/42 to 6/43 (includes renamed F2 and small series equipped with L/48 gun (used from 4/43))
IVh: 2324 from 6/43 to 2/44
IVj: 3160 from 2/44 to ~4/45, the vast majority from Nibelungenwerke, none from Krupp and just ~180 from Vomag

IIIh: 286, + 175 Befehlspanzer with dummy gun
IIIj: ~1521 (short 5cm gun) + 81 armed Befehlspanzer J (just Bow MG removed)
IIIL: ~1470 (long 5cm gun) + 50 armed Befehlspanzer K (just Bow MG removed), including those with long guns initially named as J
IIIm: 517
IIIn: 614

Looks like these folks have the most current research.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Denniss)

Post #: 31

RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/15/2013 8:31:49 PM

morvael

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I think only full war in Europe will allow solving this problem (or at least a "West Front Box"). Perhaps withdrawals and reinforcements should arrive empty, getting/returning their equipment from the standard pool at the moment of arrival/withdrawal, which should include all production and have some built in attrition (variable) to show losses elsewhere than on the eastern front.

(in reply to rmonical)

Post #: 32

RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/15/2013 9:10:21 PM

Denniss

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The Pz III J/K Befehlspanzer should be added to the list as J and M, that's the model they were based on (they were all new-builts and not converted).
The IIIJ with long gun were officially named L by March 42, roughly the same time the IV F2 got this temporary name before getting the final name G in Summer.
About 70 J-M tanks were converted to IIIn. It's (at least for me) not really known how many of the older III were upgraded to latest armor and long 5cm during overhauls.

I don't have Panzer Tracts 3-3 (JLM) or 3-4 (command versions) which may or may not contain further info.

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 33

RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/15/2013 9:26:54 PM

morvael

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Perhaps dabbling with this too much at this stage of the game's life is dangerous. I can only say that in my PBEM game I have thought of German AFV strength as too low in 1942 (I'm playing the other side, but still), while from late '43 the problems seems gone (7000 Axis AFV vs 16000 Soviet) - this may suggest a need to fix PzIV production OR it's deployment problems (if those tanks were in the pools, while units were empty). I don't have Axis tank strength in that year, but can provide those from my game for each turn.

(in reply to Denniss)

Post #: 34

RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/15/2013 9:32:43 PM

morvael

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3864 - starting
1439 - 1941-12-11 (all time low)
1902 - 1942-01-29
2111 - 1942-02-26
2425 - 1942-03-26
2972 - 1942-04-30
2952 - 1942-05-28
2380 - 1942-06-25
2182 - 1942-07-30
2190 - 1942-08-27
2163 - 1942-09-24
2359 - 1942-10-29
2499 - 1942-11-26
2637 - 1942-12-31
2633 - 1943-01-28
3001 - 1943-02-25
3270 - 1943-03-25
3451 - 1943-04-29
3949 - 1943-05-27
4142 - 1943-06-24
4256 - 1943-07-29
4402 - 1943-08-26
4619 - 1943-09-30
5226 - 1943-10-28
5968 - 1943-11-25
6547 - 1943-12-30
6780 - 1944-01-27

< Message edited by morvael -- 12/15/2013 10:33:22 PM >

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 35

RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/16/2013 1:16:23 AM

rmonical

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss
The Pz III J/K Befehlspanzer should be added to the list as J and M, that's the model they were based on (they were all new-builts and not converted).
The IIIJ with long gun were officially named L by March 42, roughly the same time the IV F2 got this temporary name before getting the final name G in Summer.
About 70 J-M tanks were converted to IIIn. It's (at least for me) not really known how many of the older III were upgraded to latest armor and long 5cm during overhauls.

I don't have Panzer Tracts 3-3 (JLM) or 3-4 (command versions) which may or may not contain further info.

And here is the update.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by rmonical -- 12/16/2013 2:17:15 AM >

(in reply to Denniss)

Post #: 36

RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/16/2013 1:59:06 AM

rmonical

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael
Perhaps dabbling with this too much at this stage of the game's life is dangerous. I can only say that in my PBEM game I have thought of German AFV strength as too low in 1942 (I'm playing the other side, but still), while from late '43 the problems seems gone (7000 Axis AFV vs 16000 Soviet) - this may suggest a need to fix PzIV production OR it's deployment problems (if those tanks were in the pools, while units were empty). I don't have Axis tank strength in that year, but can provide those from my game for each turn.

While I agree, I would like to see something sooner than WITE2 with a West Front box. The West Front is very well bounded until the start of WITW as shown by my analysis. Getting early war production right is very important given the very small numbers of German tanks 41-43. This is my recommendation for the next round scenario design. This represents an increase of 539 PzIIIs to those currently available in WITE. About 5 per week.

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< Message edited by rmonical -- 12/16/2013 3:11:02 AM >

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Post #: 37

RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/16/2013 5:55:49 AM

Denniss

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As I said Germany upgraded most III/IV sent either deliberately home for it or those sent-in for overhaul. Program for III with 3.7cm was already started in 40 with ~170 completed by June 41. Additional 115 were converted in 41 past June, 85 in 42 and a lonely one in 43. Armor plates were often directly delivered to the front for field modes (welding-on bolts to hold the armor plates). Panzer Tracts 3-2 has an image of a G that even received the stand-off armor system of late L/M tanks.

< Message edited by Denniss -- 12/16/2013 6:56:30 AM >

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Post #: 38

RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/17/2013 7:23:57 AM

Gabriel B.

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German panzer 3 production as compiled by M. Hillebrand after the war ;
1941
june 133
july 127
aug 179
sep 178
oct 164
nov 206
dec 171

1942

jan 95+64
feb 216
mar 244
apr 246
may 246
jun 228
jul 231
aug 231
sep 217
oct 188
nov 178
dec 221

average 1942 production 48/week

1943

jan 46
feb 34
mar 35
apr 46
may 43
jun 11

that is about 3978 tanks , as the J was produced since March .

< Message edited by Gabriel B. -- 12/17/2013 8:48:21 AM >

(in reply to Denniss)

Post #: 39

RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/17/2013 9:59:16 AM

Denniss

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July-October 42 and February-June 43 numbers are inflated by IIIn production, the 20 IIIn in August 43 are missing (the 64+34+1 Flammpanzer as well).
IIIm production was just 46+22 in first two months of 43. Also missing are 131 J/K command tanks built from August 42 to February 43 + a small number of unarmed H command tanks built after June 41 to early 42.

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RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/17/2013 10:33:54 AM

Gabriel B.

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flakpanzer , recovery tanks, command tanks are listed separatly without a brakedown by types .

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RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/21/2013 6:26:01 PM

jaw

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What's confusing everybody here is that I don't reduce tank production by the number of tanks in units that are withdrawn to other fronts. Therefore if a panzer division with a 100 Panzer whatever withdraws to the West and returns to the East with the same model of panzer they are not considered to be the panzers it withdrew with or to put it another way all fixed production that withdraws stays withdrawn and all demand production coming to the East in reinforcements are "free".

(in reply to rmonical)

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RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/21/2013 7:29:37 PM

rmonical

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw
What's confusing everybody here is that I don't reduce tank production by the number of tanks in units that are withdrawn to other fronts. Therefore if a panzer division with a 100 Panzer whatever withdraws to the West and returns to the East with the same model of panzer they are not considered to be the panzers it withdrew with or to put it another way all fixed production that withdraws stays withdrawn and all demand production coming to the East in reinforcements are "free".

The total PzIII production shown in WITE is 3375 J and later models of which 2607 are allocated to the East. Historical production of J and later types is 4253 (from PanzerTracs which seems to be the most recent research).

The stated justification for the production shortfall is the missing PziIIs show up in reinforcements. They do not. Net PzIIIs in reinforcements are around 360 per the analysis here (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3497782). Here is my updated accounting using the PanzerTraccs production numbers.

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< Message edited by rmonical -- 12/21/2013 8:40:51 PM >

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RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/22/2013 4:34:50 AM

darbycmcd

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Have you looked into loses in Italy? You have Africa, and the war covered by WitE, but you are missing Italy and anti-partisan Balkans.

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RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/22/2013 4:41:11 AM

rmonical

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quote:

ORIGINAL: darbymcd
Have you looked into loses in Italy? You have Africa, and the war covered by WitE, but you are missing Italy and anti-partisan Balkans.

WITW starts before Italy/Sicily so the starting PzIII in WiTW reflect everything not lost in Africa and deployed east. The starting position in WITE covers the losses in the Balkans in 1941. Significant numbers of PzIII were not used in the partisan war in the Balkans.

(in reply to darbycmcd)

Post #: 45

RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/22/2013 4:55:32 AM

darbycmcd

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Ah, well, no one knows then. But if you are trying to come up with an historical shortage, you would need to show where they are missing, East or West. And given that it is almost impossible to account for conversions (engineering hulls, command, training, etc) plus rejected unfit for service, this might be overly detailed. I also feel you have a problem subtracting withdrawn units from reinforcement, because you are using historical numbers to find discrepancy. Do you know for certain how many tanks the units took with them historically? Most of those units probably left with few if any runners. That is 200 hulls historically. I think it is great you are checking the production numbers to find big holes, like maybe you did with the Pz IV, but you can't get too fixated.

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Post #: 46

RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/22/2013 5:05:13 AM

rmonical

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quote:

Do you know for certain how many tanks the units took with them historically? Most of those units probably left with few if any runners. That is 200 hulls historically.

You are absolutely correct. I do not how many tanks the units took with them historically. I do know how many they leave with in the game because they are taken up to 75% before withdrawing. Now there is a chance they withdraw with Pz38s or PzIVs, but the TOE says PzIIIs.

Please keep poking, I am looking for flaws in my analysis and I don't find any.

(in reply to darbycmcd)

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RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/22/2013 5:06:56 AM

rmonical

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quote:

you would need to show where they are missing, East or West.

I have done that and they are missing in the east because I can count every PzIII in the west.

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RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/22/2013 5:13:54 AM

rmonical

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quote:

And given that it is almost impossible to account for conversions (engineering hulls, command, training, etc) plus rejected unfit for service, this might be overly detailed.

If you can document PzIIIs used in training please do. There were hundreds of PzIs and PzIIs available for training. Please provide a number for the PzIIIs used in training.

Similarly, Barbarossa starts with some 400 PzIIIs in not deployed. I assume these are in refit from the Balkan campaign. Can you document how many of those were written off?

The PanzerTracs statistics account for the command tanks.

(in reply to darbycmcd)

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RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/22/2013 10:11:34 AM

Gabriel B.

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I have a problem with your math .

Why add all panzer III j and later models production to the 1 june strenght ?

production in march april and may of the J model is included in the 1440 figure .

< Message edited by Gabriel B. -- 12/22/2013 11:12:13 AM >

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RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/22/2013 10:38:38 AM

Denniss

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Not every Panzer III built between March and June 41 was a III J - they built F until May, G and H until April 41. The first J were indeed reported for March 41 but probably starting with low pace.

Raw numbers, excluding command tanks and other variants:
Jan 41: 88
Feb 41: 108
March 41: 92
April 41: 124
May 41: 143
June 41: 133
July 41: 127
Aug 41: 179
Sep 41: 178
Oct 41: 164
Nov 41: 206
Dec 41: 171

(in reply to Gabriel B.)

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RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/22/2013 12:16:37 PM

Gabriel B.

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The end date for F variant might be may but may 1940 .

Enciclopedia of german tanks of world war two
Chamberlain and Doyle /Jentz

435 produced from sep 1939 to july 1940

G variant :

600 produced from april 1940-february 1941.

that leaves us the H variant.

308 produced from oct 1940- april 1941.

Average production 44/month could be higher at the end of the production run
but not significatly higher.

I will look up in Panzer truppen volume 1 to find if some production figures are included

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RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/22/2013 12:52:39 PM

Denniss

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Panzer III production was not linear - from later 40 to early 41 they were producing 4(!) variants at the same time (5 if you count-in the H command version) but started to uniform on the IIIj.
Several proceses disrupted the production, F/G were built with both 37mm and 50mm gun. The last F with 3.7cm gun was built in July 40, between 75 and 96 with 5cm gun (the latter starting in July 40 but stretched-out to 41). The last III with 3.7cm gun was a G in October 40, all further Gs were with 5cm gun.

And no, only 286 Hs built.

Get your hands on Panzer Tracts 3-2 - either buy it or find it in the net.

(in reply to Gabriel B.)

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RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/22/2013 2:28:35 PM

Gabriel B.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Panzer III production was not linear - from later 40 to early 41 they were producing 4(!) variants at the same time (5 if you count-in the H command version) but started to uniform on the IIIj.
Several proceses disrupted the production, F/G were built with both 37mm and 50mm gun. The last F with 3.7cm gun was built in July 40, between 75 and 96 with 5cm gun (the latter starting in July 40 but stretched-out to 41). The last III with 3.7cm gun was a G in October 40, all further Gs were with 5cm gun.

And no, only 286 Hs built.

Get your hands on Panzer Tracts 3-2 - either buy it or find it in the net.

My obsesion with german tanks of ww2 only goes that far.

IF you have figures regarding how many of the 359 tanks produced in march april may were of the
J variant feel free to post them .

Either way , as of now they get counted twice.

(in reply to Denniss)

Post #: 54

RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/22/2013 7:36:30 PM

rmonical

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quote:

IF you have figures regarding how many of the 359 tanks produced in march april may were of the
J variant feel free to post them .

Either way , as of now they get counted twice.

Now that is a valid criticism of my analysis. Since WITE shows none in the pool on 6/22/1941, I assumed there were in fact none built. I've ordered the Panzer Tracts 3-2, 3-3, and 23 and will post more later.

(in reply to Gabriel B.)

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RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/22/2013 9:03:16 PM

Denniss

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According to Panzer Tracts 3-2 about 36 Ausf. F were delivered by Alkett between January and May 41 (leftovers from a previous construction order, delayed because StuG development and finishing G/H had priority)
MNH may have been very late to deliver their Ausf.G and their last Gs were delivered in March-April 41
MIAG is assumed to have deliverd 20 H in March and 24 H in April 41
Henschel had 7 H in March 41
Wegmann 14 H in March
Daimler-Benz with 3 in March
MAN: 18 H were planned for March 41

(in reply to rmonical)

Post #: 56

RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/23/2013 10:25:43 AM

Gabriel B.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

According to Panzer Tracts 3-2 about 36 Ausf. F were delivered by Alkett between January and May 41 (leftovers from a previous construction order, delayed because StuG development and finishing G/H had priority)
MNH may have been very late to deliver their Ausf.G and their last Gs were delivered in March-April 41
MIAG is assumed to have deliverd 20 H in March and 24 H in April 41
Henschel had 7 H in March 41
Wegmann 14 H in March
Daimler-Benz with 3 in March
MAN: 18 H were planned for March 41

this explains some question marks i had .

1021 panzer III armed with 5 cm gun were produced until 1 june 1941.(per jentz)

substract 286 of H variant, 550 of the G variant, 75-96 of the F variant .

the remaining 110-87 tanks should be J .

as the production figure for may alone is higher (143) this can only be explained by delayed F, G, H production.

(in reply to Denniss)

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RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/23/2013 11:33:10 AM

Denniss

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594 Ausf G overall (6 chassis became StuG III Ausf. A) of which 142 to 163 were built with 3.7cm gun
21 Ausf. G with 5cm were converted to Z.W. 40 with Schachtellaufwerk, I don't know how and where these were used (may be used for training only).

(in reply to Gabriel B.)

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RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/23/2013 8:15:35 PM

jaw

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I don't know how you are calculating your numbers but with respect to the Panzer IIIj thru n, the total number of tanks on which game production is based is 4,219. Of these, 667 Panzer IIIs were in starting and reinforcement units for a balance of 3,552 to be produced. Due to the mechanics of the production system a net of 3,520 are actually produced. If you add the difference of 34 tanks from my calculations and Panzer Tracs plus the 32 short due to the way production is calculated in the game the net difference should only be 66 tanks.

I cannot vouch for the total of Panzer IIIs made prior to the Panzer IIIj in service on June 22, 1941 as I was not responsible for that part of the research.

Jim

(in reply to rmonical)

Post #: 59

RE: Where are the Panzer IIIs - 12/31/2013 4:57:02 AM

rmonical

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I got the PanzerTracts and I understand why it is so difficult to figure it out.

Does anybody have information about monthly striking from rolls of panzers by type? I was dissappointed to not find it in PT-23.

In terms of the missing PzIIIs, I think the is closer to my last estimate than WITE, but I need the striking information to get to a better number.

(in reply to rmonical)

Post #: 60

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