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RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility

 
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RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/23/2013 8:12:42 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		Someone made a mod with light snow spots on mud for Bulge scenarios. I have it in my Mods folder. It would be nice to have your 3 in the game though with the addition of effect on speed and distance. Within the 6 minute time frame of course :tongueincheek:

(in reply to Crossroads)
Post #: 31
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/24/2013 1:05:24 AM   
K K Rossokolski

 

Posts: 2141
Joined: 1/20/2009
From: Melbourne, Australia, now Canberra
Status: offline 		Further to the scale issue, there seems to be general agreement that a hex is 250m.
Think of two adjacent hexes, each with a tank therein. How far apart apart are the tanks?

< Message edited by K K Rossokolski -- 12/24/2013 2:12:56 AM >

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RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/24/2013 1:08:04 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		Politically?

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Post #: 33
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/24/2013 1:41:19 AM   
K K Rossokolski

 

Posts: 2141
Joined: 1/20/2009
From: Melbourne, Australia, now Canberra
Status: offline 		Very droll.
I keep politics to other fora. They could be water tanks.

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Post #: 34
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/24/2013 1:49:36 AM   
Otto von Blotto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: K K Rossokolski

Further to the scale issue, there seems to be general agreement that a hex is 250m.
Think of two adjacent hexes, each with a tank therein. How far apart apart are the tanks?


In theory it could be anything from 1cm to nearly 500 meters (less the size of the respective tanks), depends where they are nominally within there allotted 250m hex.

< Message edited by Otto von Blotto -- 12/24/2013 2:49:34 AM >

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RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/24/2013 2:04:18 AM   
K K Rossokolski

 

Posts: 2141
Joined: 1/20/2009
From: Melbourne, Australia, now Canberra
Status: offline 		Indeed. So we have an uncertainty of 1/2km inherent in the game or scenario. Does it matter?

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Rod Coles...KKR

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future."
Yogi Berra

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Post #: 36
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/24/2013 7:23:46 AM   
LoneWulf63


Posts: 905
Joined: 10/21/2011
From: Columbia, South Carolina
Status: offline 		This is why I hope we have a game someday that is not dependent on hexes. Since I do not write or understand program coding, I have not a clue how to do it. However, I do understand the workings of a game when it comes to the rules that govern that game. I wrote several rules years ago for Squad Leader "Iron Cross" and "Crescendo of Doom" that were published.

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Post #: 37
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/24/2013 9:10:52 AM   
Otto von Blotto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: K K Rossokolski

Indeed. So we have an uncertainty of 1/2km inherent in the game or scenario. Does it matter?


Not to me no, it is a uncertainty built into the abstract "scale of the game" and it is defined as such, most units can represent many individual items and they are not all occupying the same piece of ground but can be spread all over the hex.

So with the tank example above a 5 or 6 strength unit can be both 1cm and 500 m (or anywhere inbetween) away from a corresponding enemy tank unit at the same time call it Schroedinger's tank.

< Message edited by Otto von Blotto -- 12/24/2013 10:20:35 AM >

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RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/24/2013 9:25:11 AM   
Crossroads


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Otto von Blotto

So with the tank example above a 5 or 6 strength unit can be both 1cm and 500 m (or anywhere inbetween) away from a corresponding enemy tank unit at the same time call it Schroedinger's tank.


If you applied a hard attack strength of 32 against a Schroedinger's tank, hiding in a (big!) pillbox, did it die



< Message edited by Crossroads -- 12/24/2013 10:26:17 AM >

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Post #: 39
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/24/2013 10:30:18 AM   
Otto von Blotto


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Status: offline 		Petri

You wouldn't know until you cleared the rubble of the pillbox to find out until then it would be simultaneously alive and dead, near and far.
I'm going off-line for a few days, will send the Fury at viborg bay turn after boxing day.

Happy Christmas to all.

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Post #: 40
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/24/2013 10:32:46 AM   
LoneWulf63


Posts: 905
Joined: 10/21/2011
From: Columbia, South Carolina
Status: offline 		If you want to see a really elegant set of rules that pertain to mechanized warfare in the 20th and 21st centuries, you should get Fistful of TOWs II. Yes, they are meant for miniatures but they contain a wealth of information that could be applied to JTCS and MW (once it is published). The TO&Es (OOBs) themselves are worth the price of the rules ($39.50 US). Chris.

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Post #: 41
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/24/2013 11:28:27 AM   
LoneWulf63


Posts: 905
Joined: 10/21/2011
From: Columbia, South Carolina
Status: offline 		Something to ponder. I just did a little test to see how the time/distant scale works in JTCS v1.04. I took a M18 Hellcat and placed it on a paved road. Now, the real Hellcat had a top speed of 97 Kph. That means, in JTCS time/distance scale, that it should be able to traverse a dry, flat, open-paved road 38 hexes (actually 37.79 hexes)in a JTCS six minute game turn. Care to guess how far the JTCS M-18 can travel? I can tell you that it is not 38 hexes, by a long shot. Chris.

< Message edited by resinslinger -- 12/24/2013 12:32:32 PM >

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Post #: 42
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/24/2013 12:15:53 PM   
LoneWulf63


Posts: 905
Joined: 10/21/2011
From: Columbia, South Carolina
Status: offline 		The distance that a M-18 Hellcat can move along a dry, open, paved road is 25 hexes. Now, if the time scale is "set in stone", then the actual top speed of the M-18 (in JTCS terms) is roughly 62.5 KpH. On the other hand, if the speed of the JTCS M-18 is correct (97 KpH) then the time it takes to move 25 hexes (6.25 K) is roughly 4 minutes (actually 3.86 minutes), not six minutes. So, either the speed of the M-18 is wrong or the time scale is wrong. Now some might say that factors like the platoon would not move that fast so as to avoid thrown tracks, or that it reflects the unit starting and stopping each turn, or that the platoon is moving slower to avoid contact with or react to enemy units may have been factored in. What if that platoon was moving strategically and did not have to worry about encountering any enemy units? Chris.

< Message edited by resinslinger -- 12/24/2013 1:24:09 PM >

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RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/24/2013 12:27:29 PM   
junk2drive


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Joined: 6/27/2002
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Status: offline 		Six minutes is one tenth of an hour. 97 kph divided by 10 is 9.7 km. That would be 4 x 9.7 hexes in one turn. I think.

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Post #: 44
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/24/2013 1:07:54 PM   
Crossroads


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Otto von Blotto
You wouldn't know until you cleared the rubble of the pillbox to find out until then it would be simultaneously alive and dead, near and far.
I'm going off-line for a few days, will send the Fury at viborg bay turn after boxing day.



A formidable weapon indeed. The only weapon feared more than a Schroedinger's tank, is one having an additional S.E.P. Camo layering on it.

An object with a S.E.P. Camo layer omits light as any other object would, but upon reaching one's eye receptors that particular light wave causes the eye receptors to realise it is Someone Else's Problem and they won't therefore bother sending the signal any further to brain for processing.

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Post #: 45
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/24/2013 5:37:32 PM   
LoneWulf63


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From: Columbia, South Carolina
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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

Six minutes is one tenth of an hour. 97 kph divided by 10 is 9.7 km. That would be 4 x 9.7 hexes in one turn. I think.


Give that man a Golden Twinkie. In my follow up reply to my own question, I should have stated that the M-18 should be able to move 38 hexes (37.7 actual), not 25. Sorry bout that.

< Message edited by resinslinger -- 12/24/2013 6:39:50 PM >

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Post #: 46
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/26/2013 12:08:32 AM   
TAIL GUNNER

 

Posts: 1152
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Los Osos, CA
Status: offline 		97 kph for a M-18 seemed a bit high....sources I've seen state 45 mph (72 kph/29 hexes per turn) to 55 mph (89 kph/36 hexes per turn).

Now I'm curious if all other vehicles in the game are out of whack...and if their is a pattern or code that Talonsoft implemented for this reduction of speed.

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Post #: 47
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/26/2013 9:13:42 AM   
LoneWulf63


Posts: 905
Joined: 10/21/2011
From: Columbia, South Carolina
Status: offline 		From my reference material, all pretty much state that the M-18 had a top-speed of 97 Kph. However, that is probably not its sustainable speed. I don't know if other vehicles in JTCS reflect the same speed error. CB

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Post #: 48
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/26/2013 5:39:52 PM   
TAIL GUNNER

 

Posts: 1152
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Los Osos, CA
Status: offline 		Looking at the Unit Viewer, the M-18 has '80' listed as Road Speed and '43' as Country Speed. I can only assume this represents kilometers per hour...(roughly 50 mph for road).

I can also only assume two other variables in the platoon file known as Weight and Ground Pressure affect movement rates regarding various terrain types, weather conditions, etc.


(in reply to LoneWulf63)
Post #: 49
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/26/2013 6:01:09 PM   
TAIL GUNNER

 

Posts: 1152
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From: Los Osos, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crossroads

Go for it Ian!

The map should not be an issue with 250m hex scale. The length of the scenario, reinforcements, all that? Now the engine can handle it, if the scenario designer only has the persistence to model it all

Then, how to test such a monster? With the new automated test feature perhaps: Coder Diary #11


Yes, but there are many other variables in a multi-day battle which our venerable old CS engine simply cannot model without extensive .btl editing. Things like replacements, breakdowns/repair, fatigue, supply variances, changing weather, ad nauseum....

Now I would never disparage anyone for making such a beast..I used to rather enjoy them myself. Greg Allen's massive Stalingrad scenario is one of my all-time favorites. But scale is scale as is often repeated...and these monster scenarios just don't make the grade in this engine...(my opinion of course.)

A more elegant approach I think would be to break up a large battle into a LCG. I was in fact working on recreating the entire 67.Korps efforts in Wacht am Rhein awhile ago...but decided to wait for this wonderful patch to complete it. The entire Korps would play the role as the player's Core Forces so any losses would matter. Limited objectives for each scenario to allow for proper rewards or penalties based on end of scenario rating, yet based on historical objectives and using historical OOBs.

Takes a lot more foresight and work....but a much more rewarding experience.

Regards,
ChadG

(in reply to Crossroads)
Post #: 50
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/26/2013 6:45:44 PM   
berto


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From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Juggalo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crossroads

Go for it Ian!

The map should not be an issue with 250m hex scale. The length of the scenario, reinforcements, all that? Now the engine can handle it, if the scenario designer only has the persistence to model it all

Then, how to test such a monster? With the new automated test feature perhaps: Coder Diary #11

Yes, but there are many other variables in a multi-day battle which our venerable old CS engine simply cannot model without extensive .btl editing. Things like replacements, breakdowns/repair, fatigue, supply variances, changing weather, ad nauseum....

I tend to agree with you. Battles lasting just a few days are fine, but beyond that...

OTOH, not for the immediate next update but beyond, we still have a few (many?) tricks up our sleeves, including ... an event editor.

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Post #: 51
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/26/2013 7:26:27 PM   
TAIL GUNNER

 

Posts: 1152
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From: Los Osos, CA
Status: offline 		An Event Editor...nice.

I had to search the forum, but I made that request in a past thread that is now 5 and a half years old! Jason responded it was #1 on his personal wish list.

berto, if no one's told you lately....you're pretty damn awesome.

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Post #: 52
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/26/2013 7:33:04 PM   
Jason Petho


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From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline 		Beyond awesome... way, way, way beyond awesome!

Jason Petho

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Post #: 53
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/26/2013 8:10:02 PM   
MrRoadrunner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: resinslinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

Six minutes is one tenth of an hour. 97 kph divided by 10 is 9.7 km. That would be 4 x 9.7 hexes in one turn. I think.

In my follow up reply to my own question, I should have stated that the M-18 should be able to move 38 hexes (37.7 actual), not 25.


So, how many hexes would it be able to go at your 30 minutes per turn?
Four seems closer to six than thirty.
I can accept that someone who put the M-18 in, confused KPM and MPH ... or did not have rock solid data ... or wanted to reflect combat speed ... or wanted the vehicle to be less powerful. But, I do know they were not looking at thirty minute turns or a shorter/longer distance in the hex.

And, if you want to "play" with the distance of a hex you will get into gun ranges too?

RR

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Post #: 54
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/26/2013 8:10:30 PM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 1323
Joined: 10/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

Beyond awesome... way, way, way beyond awesome!

Jason Petho


+1

RR

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Post #: 55
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/26/2013 8:15:23 PM   
LoneWulf63


Posts: 905
Joined: 10/21/2011
From: Columbia, South Carolina
Status: offline 		Okay, I give up. To hell with it.

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Post #: 56
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/27/2013 10:04:56 AM   
Crossroads


Posts: 17372
Joined: 7/5/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Juggalo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crossroads

Go for it Ian!

The map should not be an issue with 250m hex scale. The length of the scenario, reinforcements, all that? Now the engine can handle it, if the scenario designer only has the persistence to model it all

Then, how to test such a monster? With the new automated test feature perhaps: Coder Diary #11


Yes, but there are many other variables in a multi-day battle which our venerable old CS engine simply cannot model without extensive .btl editing. Things like replacements, breakdowns/repair, fatigue, supply variances, changing weather, ad nauseum....

Now I would never disparage anyone for making such a beast..I used to rather enjoy them myself. Greg Allen's massive Stalingrad scenario is one of my all-time favorites. But scale is scale as is often repeated...and these monster scenarios just don't make the grade in this engine...(my opinion of course.)

A more elegant approach I think would be to break up a large battle into a LCG. I was in fact working on recreating the entire 67.Korps efforts in Wacht am Rhein awhile ago...but decided to wait for this wonderful patch to complete it. The entire Korps would play the role as the player's Core Forces so any losses would matter. Limited objectives for each scenario to allow for proper rewards or penalties based on end of scenario rating, yet based on historical objectives and using historical OOBs.

Takes a lot more foresight and work....but a much more rewarding experience.

Regards,
ChadG



Yes, I was thinking LCG too as perhaps the most natural implementation. Too bad they can't be enjoyed via PBEM though...

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Post #: 57
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/28/2013 2:50:26 PM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 1323
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: resinslinger
Okay, I give up. To hell with it.


If you wish you can give up. You cannot argue with time or distance. They are mathematical concepts that are set in stone.
You can discuss if the early/current developers and designers may have made mistakes, wanted to give the Germans a "boost", had wrong data, confused scale, made intentional changes not within scale.

You can find "gottcha" units that do not fit. Which support an argument against scale.
But, you found a "gottcha" that proved much shorter time than 30 minutes (even 6 minutes)per turn. Right?

A more gracious concession may have helped for any future discussions?

And, please, no more of your e-mail will be accepted, or read. I have other more important things to do with my time.

RR

_____________________________

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(in reply to LoneWulf63)
Post #: 58
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/28/2013 3:24:18 PM   
LoneWulf63


Posts: 905
Joined: 10/21/2011
From: Columbia, South Carolina
Status: offline 		RR. What I am giving up on is arguing with people such as you. As you said, I have better things to do with my time. Don't worry, I won't send you anymore emails or PMs. Again, not worth the effort.

To the other members of the forum and my friends, I apologize. This won't happen again.

Chris.

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In loving memory of my wife, Rebecca. 5/2/52 to 7/13/2014. I miss you sweetheart.

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Post #: 59
RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/28/2013 5:06:08 PM   
LoneWulf63


Posts: 905
Joined: 10/21/2011
From: Columbia, South Carolina
Status: offline 		Back to the thread as originally posted. This is an excellent idea for all of the games in the series. Not all will like it, but there are those of us (that includes your's truly) that do. We have to remember that the dev team is working on the patch and the MW games for the majority of the players, not the few. Berto, you are simply a wizard when it comes to pushing this old lady even further as are the other members of the team. Chris.

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In loving memory of my wife, Rebecca. 5/2/52 to 7/13/2014. I miss you sweetheart.

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Post #: 60
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