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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 12/19/2013 5:25:56 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidery

quote:

Something else interesting is the 47k/month pilot training HI cost.


What I always see is that the HI pilot cost for a month is 2x the number of pilots in the training pools and not the 5x that tracker shows. I would be interested in whether this is a change from a Beta or my misunderstanding. This could be 19K HI a month instead.

With the remaining time until game end in May 46 looking at about 2.6 million HI expenditure so the HI is about what would be needed for a game that goes to the end.


I will have to look again at my own numbers. I assume right now I'm getting an early war bonus, or maybe it's related to the scenario data file changes I made or starting this game under a beta? In my AI game, which I started under 1108r9 (latest official, no beta) it is most certainly 5*Pilots in HI. However, I have noticed in my game with Moose that my first several months of pilot training have not cost me that much. 2*Pilots would be in the ballpark, but I do recall that perhaps in January I got hit for 5*. Will have to check.

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 12/19/2013 5:26:53 PM   
FeurerKrieg


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Another consideration is that if you are utilizing fuel from the DEI to refuel the ships transporting those resources then maybe it is still worth it to bring resources home via water. If HI stocks are not the shortage, then it stands to reason that it is more important to get lots of resources back to the Home Islands before you are cut off from the DEI. Then, when the DEI is cut off, you have plenty of resources still sitting in Korea waiting to be carried home.

This is especially true when it is already a challenge to pull fuel out of some places as fast as it is being produced.

I might have to run these numbers at some point... :)



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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 12/19/2013 5:28:03 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I don't know if it's anything new, really. But the very first thing I noticed when looking at my convoys, when I first started playing Japan, was that Resources actually aren't hard to get. There are always too many. My stocks in my game against Moose are already up several million in Japan, and I haven't even shipped anything from the DEI yet! That's all just coming from places within a couple dozen hexes of Honshu.


Not new, but one of the biggest arguments about increasing LI in the Home Islands is that you will need to ship more resources to Japan and the extra fuel that will require. If you are using Fusan than the fuel expenditure is peanuts compared to shipping from anywhere else so I don't think that particular argument holds weight anymore.

We all know that the amount of fuel/oil is finite, that Japan can only produce so much HI and supply from fuel sources. What isn't finite is LI and resources, if anything they are the only viable increase to Japan's supply producing capability short of further conquests. I think obvert's game will go a long way to debunk a number of arguments against LI expansion. I'm not saying expanding LI is the way to go here, but I am trying to point out that some of the arguments against it, increased fuel usage and more resources needed, perhaps aren't as big a factor as initially thought particularly if Fusan is used almost exclusively. I think the late war supply situation needs to be addressed in any number of ways; smarter production choices; more strategically sound conquests that increase fuel and supply producing capability; more prudent fort building...etc. I will not say expanding LI is the only answer, but it is certainly something that could be pursued in combination with other options.



Was it really an argument about Fuel before? Maybe I just discounted those arguments because building a massive pool of Resources in Japan is really, really easy. You don't even need the Magic Coast Road working to do so. And as you say, once your industry starts getting bombed out, you're going to have even more Resources sitting around as your HI capacity declines.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidery

With the remaining time until game end in May 46 looking at about 2.6 million HI expenditure so the HI is about what would be needed for a game that goes to the end.


That may be true, but I was trying to point out that without supply, that pooled HI is next to useless. You can train your pilots and build your aircraft, but you won't have the supply to do anything with them.



I don't want to discourage obvert, but this is what it's looking like. I'd put my money on him running out of supply first, by a large margin.

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 12/19/2013 5:46:11 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Was it really an argument about Fuel before? Maybe I just discounted those arguments because building a massive pool of Resources in Japan is really, really easy. You don't even need the Magic Coast Road working to do so. And as you say, once your industry starts getting bombed out, you're going to have even more Resources sitting around as your HI capacity declines.


Time is the major reason against it, but then the fuel and resources were tacked on as secondary reasons to not do it.


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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 12/19/2013 5:49:06 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I don't want to discourage obvert, but this is what it's looking like. I'd put my money on him running out of supply first, by a large margin.


I think he'll be fine (mentally ), he's said all along he wants to see what happens in the end game. It's not until the end do you see how all those decisions you made years ago come into play and what to do differently next time.

_____________________________

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Post #: 2735
RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 12/19/2013 6:12:10 PM   
obvert


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Thanks for all of the comments and thoughts, gentlemen.

Looking at the numbers now I of course know there are quite a few things I could have done to be in a better position now. Getting to 45 is of course the first goal, and preparing to get farther even and possibly into 46 is the second. Some of the stuff I knew I needed to do for the second were subsumed under requirements I thought at the time were necessary in getting to the first.

Interestingly I did expand some LI in the Home Islands. Not of a magnitude that will really help now but at a level that should have given a positive return of about 300/month (if I remember correctly) in the Home Islands starting a month or two ago. The argument I would make now is to extend what I tried to do in this game, and to an extent did well with HI; to expand it near the oil centers and not need to ship as much back to run the HI in the Home Islands only. This should mean that the overall expenditure of fuel for shipping oil/fuel was down and the expenditure for shipping supply to the DEI was also lowered. Done early enough this HI would pay for itself after 550 or so turns, so it could produce a surplus of supply and the kind of cushion of HI I have now, which is plenty.

The addition I would make is to heavily expand LI (~3000+) in Manchuria and the Home Islands, where as several have pointed out the haul is not far. Also, it is possible to streamline efforts by being careful to haul resources back after taking troops down to the Southern Resource area.

In this game I used too much fuel and supply in several ways:

1. I ran the KB all over the Pacific, raiding Sydney several times as well as Perth, and kept it on station in the New Hebrides and Santa Cruz Islands for much of 42, and in the Solomons for a lot of early 43.

2. I ran too many resource convoys in extremely distant locations including from Port Headland, Nauru and Ocean Island, not realizing the real glut of accessible resources closer.

3. The supply expenditure for forts, ports and field building was overly ambitious. I hadn't realized the real costs of this build-up, and much of it turned out to be unnecessary anyway. In future I would rely more on reserves with plentiful supply and some well built nodes with high forts, but even most important defensive bases would be left at level 2-4 fields and level 1-2 port with no higher than level 4 forts.

4. The extended time in Burma with a large army and air force used enormous amounts of supply, and I could have pulled more back sooner. Losing the large army in Thailand probably saved supply in the long run, but led to a quicker Allied advance as well.

5. I know the expansion of the R n D and air factories eventually eclipsed what is prudent. I would streamline next time not for tactical reasons, as I like having the many different models, but for economic reasons. I would also simply put up with not having the best aircraft always available at the earliest possible date.

There are probably other things, but those are some of the main ones.

That all said I will also add that I saved an enormous and undetermined amount of fuel, supply, resources, ships and troops by engaging in a strenuous and all inclusive war on the Allied submarine fleet. I'm pretty sure I would be in this position much earlier if they had been even half as successful as in the war. I also think that if I'd invested more heavily and earlier in night fighters, and had the Nick Id NF that I could upgrade from my FB groups early, that the drain of oil, HI/LI in the DEi would have been much slower and more costly to the Allies.

Still plodding along though. It'll be interesting to see how long I can compete here. I have a few ideas, but none are particularly fun.

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 12/19/2013 6:15:33 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu

Very interesting tests.
IF You are doing those test You should tests with night battle when Japanese BB have and don`t have Radar Type 22 installed.



I think I have a save before that upgrade.

When you see the next one it'll surprise you.

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 12/19/2013 6:27:22 PM   
obvert


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BB TEST (continued)
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

After the old upgraded BB I decided to roll the Fuso out for another round. This time the Washington is in the Allied corner and both have solid captains with naval in the 70s and aggression in the mid-60s.

The first battle was again at night, and again the Fuso came out slightly ahead. I realized here that the Washington hadn't really seen any combat in this one so the crew experience is lower by abut 20 points in both night and day. I'm sure that is the deciding factor here, but it was still an eyebrow raiser.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 12/19/2013 7:28:04 PM >


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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 12/19/2013 6:37:39 PM   
obvert


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BB TEST (continued)
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The next one was a shock. In a daylight bout the Fuso took on Washington and demolished her in much the same fashion as she'd taken apart the Maryland. Again the ship sank outright before the turn was finished after several dozen big gun hits. I'll try to post some combat reports later to make this more clear.

Next time I'll choose an Allied ship with some better crew experience to get a better idea of what's going on.

The other factors involved though are very minimal. The only search in the area is from the ships themselves, they are both traveling similar distances during the day to the battles, and they are in perfect shape to begin.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 12/19/2013 7:38:11 PM >


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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 12/19/2013 6:47:17 PM   
Lokasenna


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I'm not terribly surprised by that result in the daytime. In my Guadalcanal PBEM, Kirishima crippled Washington so badly she may have sunk on her way back to port anyway, had she not been ambushed by a sub after the fight. And that was a Kongo! Granted, they have the same guns, but the "real" BBs have "real" armor, so presumably should take less damage. Mutsu/Nagato should do even better, with their bigger guns.

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 12/19/2013 6:55:28 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I'm not terribly surprised by that result in the daytime. In my Guadalcanal PBEM, Kirishima crippled Washington so badly she may have sunk on her way back to port anyway, had she not been ambushed by a sub after the fight. And that was a Kongo! Granted, they have the same guns, but the "real" BBs have "real" armor, so presumably should take less damage. Mutsu/Nagato should do even better, with their bigger guns.


The volume of hits, presumably from the extra turrets here on Fuso, seem to be the factor in good daylight conditions. I'd like to watch the replay more closely but it streams by really fast on H to H so I can't see what is hitting what all of the time.

I have a few others lined up for later, including Mutsu and Nagato. The Iowas are on the card as well. Won't be able to continue until after the holidays, but I'll play with these a bit more then.

One of my suspicions is that the IJN BBs can stand up to the Allied BBs, but that the escorts are so much better once that Fletchers arrive that it tips the scales heavily to the Allies from early 43 onward.

< Message edited by obvert -- 12/19/2013 7:56:41 PM >


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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 12/19/2013 7:18:32 PM   
witpqs


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You should be able to adjust the delay settings if you want to see more details.

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 12/19/2013 8:32:20 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

In this game I used too much fuel and supply in several ways:
1. I ran the KB all over the Pacific, raiding Sydney several times as well as Perth, and kept it on station in the New Hebrides and Santa Cruz Islands for much of 42, and in the Solomons for a lot of early 43.
2. I ran too many resource convoys in extremely distant locations including from Port Headland, Nauru and Ocean Island, not realizing the real glut of accessible resources closer.
3. The supply expenditure for forts, ports and field building was overly ambitious. I hadn't realized the real costs of this build-up, and much of it turned out to be unnecessary anyway. In future I would rely more on reserves with plentiful supply and some well built nodes with high forts, but even most important defensive bases would be left at level 2-4 fields and level 1-2 port with no higher than level 4 forts.
4. The extended time in Burma with a large army and air force used enormous amounts of supply, and I could have pulled more back sooner. Losing the large army in Thailand probably saved supply in the long run, but led to a quicker Allied advance as well.
5. I know the expansion of the R n D and air factories eventually eclipsed what is prudent. I would streamline next time not for tactical reasons, as I like having the many different models, but for economic reasons. I would also simply put up with not having the best aircraft always available at the earliest possible date.


In my opinion, as a AFB the very astute observations you make here are keys to victory. Your game is unique in that it actually has made it to the late stages.
But I think your observation about the KB running all over the place is especially keen.
It is in my perspective the typical IJ game move the KN around "punishing" the Allies and keeping offensive initiative.
But like that like spending a 401K account, the reckless expenditure of resources only becomes apparent in the late game.

I also agree with your observations about Burma. The game mechanics are especially "interesting" in that the Allies can
support an offense across the Irrawaddy Valley and the IJ have unique ahistorical considerations.

Your game also demonstrated that the IJ cannot build up everywhere and must have an overall plan to invest in defenses ...

I am suspecting that this game will change IJ strategies from this point forward.

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 12/20/2013 8:18:36 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

You should be able to adjust the delay settings if you want to see more details.


I might not understand this clearly, but I do change the message frequency, slowing with the control + S and speeding it with control + F, but the combat itself in the H to H seems faster and unaffected by this. Maybe there is something else to alter that? Let me know if there is another way.

_____________________________

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 12/20/2013 8:36:33 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

quote:

In this game I used too much fuel and supply in several ways:
1. I ran the KB all over the Pacific, raiding Sydney several times as well as Perth, and kept it on station in the New Hebrides and Santa Cruz Islands for much of 42, and in the Solomons for a lot of early 43.
2. I ran too many resource convoys in extremely distant locations including from Port Headland, Nauru and Ocean Island, not realizing the real glut of accessible resources closer.
3. The supply expenditure for forts, ports and field building was overly ambitious. I hadn't realized the real costs of this build-up, and much of it turned out to be unnecessary anyway. In future I would rely more on reserves with plentiful supply and some well built nodes with high forts, but even most important defensive bases would be left at level 2-4 fields and level 1-2 port with no higher than level 4 forts.
4. The extended time in Burma with a large army and air force used enormous amounts of supply, and I could have pulled more back sooner. Losing the large army in Thailand probably saved supply in the long run, but led to a quicker Allied advance as well.
5. I know the expansion of the R n D and air factories eventually eclipsed what is prudent. I would streamline next time not for tactical reasons, as I like having the many different models, but for economic reasons. I would also simply put up with not having the best aircraft always available at the earliest possible date.


In my opinion, as a AFB the very astute observations you make here are keys to victory. Your game is unique in that it actually has made it to the late stages.
But I think your observation about the KB running all over the place is especially keen.
It is in my perspective the typical IJ game move the KN around "punishing" the Allies and keeping offensive initiative.
But like that like spending a 401K account, the reckless expenditure of resources only becomes apparent in the late game.


At the time, in my second PBEM (the first lasting all of 8 weeks in game) I though I was being pretty conservative. I didn't go for Fiji, Ceylon, OZ or India proper. I didn't run the entire IJN to Tahiti like I did in my first PBEM (), and I tried to use cruise and patrol stationary a lot of the time when possible. Still, now only can I understand some of these things better, as you say.

quote:


I also agree with your observations about Burma. The game mechanics are especially "interesting" in that the Allies can
support an offense across the Irrawaddy Valley and the IJ have unique ahistorical considerations.

Your game also demonstrated that the IJ cannot build up everywhere and must have an overall plan to invest in defenses ...

I am suspecting that this game will change IJ strategies from this point forward.


The building was the bigger problem in my understanding now. This is something I've never seen discussed before now, though. I have yet to estimate the costs of building ports and fields, but I think much of that was unnecessary and hugely expensive. If I had had all of the Chinese industry for the entire game from 42 it might have been slightly offset, but I had no real understanding of the costs of building so I couldn't necessarily restrict it to prudent levels.

The overall plan of frontline defenses was in place, but due to a few tactical fizzles and mainly the exponential level of Allied capability improvement in 43-44 the scrambling cost me more in having to pull back from good positions, trying to quickly (and with less planning) beef-up secondary and tertiary defenses, and to sometimes overly invest in areas that were ultimately not worth the efforts. It would be very different with the pace slowed in a Babes mod with Stacking Limits that would curtail massive stacking of late-war Allied stuff to get any single point very quickly. I know with supply expediture they could still do some of it, but not as much, surely.

So as I move forward I'll try to calculate the cost of base construction projects and add that into the mix. Hopefully by the end there will be a clearer picture of what is possible on the Japanese side for a long war.

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 12/20/2013 10:07:22 AM   
Powloon

 

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Hi Obvert,

Just wanted to say what an excellent AAR this is and much kudos to you for keeping it going through what must be for a Japanese player a pretty grim period (understatement).

As a relative newb to this beast of a game both yours and your opponents AARs are invaluable resources.

Good Luck!

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Post #: 2746
RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 12/20/2013 10:45:15 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powloon

Hi Obvert,

Just wanted to say what an excellent AAR this is and much kudos to you for keeping it going through what must be for a Japanese player a pretty grim period (understatement).

As a relative newb to this beast of a game both yours and your opponents AARs are invaluable resources.

Good Luck!


Although it can be humbling for sure, it's really good to get everyone's thoughts at this point. I think a lot of Japanese side players miss this opportunity to really dig into what happened and get a lot of feedback on that. It must really help to see the two sides in comparison, and hopefully will be good for future research. I'll keep trying to stick it out and continue to reflect on what happened earlier, which is the more enjoyable part now!

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 12/20/2013 12:31:11 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
The next one was a shock. In a daylight bout the Fuso took on Washington and demolished her in much the same fashion as she'd taken apart the Maryland. Again the ship sank outright before the turn was finished after several dozen big gun hits. I'll try to post some combat reports later to make this more clear.

Next time I'll choose an Allied ship with some better crew experience to get a better idea of what's going on.

The other factors involved though are very minimal. The only search in the area is from the ships themselves, they are both traveling similar distances during the day to the battles, and they are in perfect shape to begin.

As you have discovered here, crew exp is a critical factor in surface outcomes. It is why early naval actions typically result in IJ victories, but as the USN exp grows it balances out.

Remember that as new ships come in, the allied crew exp improves while the IJ crew exp on new ships falls in general. You really have to watch crew exp as IJ, rather than the ship itself. A lot of IJ players fall victim to seeing how their Yugumo/Kagero class DD's perform early war (with really good crew exp) and think the new ones will perform the same, not realizing that the crew exp on the new ship is 15 or 20 pts lower. Ditto for the CV's ... crew exp matters a lot for damage control, so the new CV's that you get are REALLY brittle. What the Akagi might have survived, your Unryu's will almost always sink from.

What I do not know, and have never tested, is if crew exp impacts ship AA performance.

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 12/20/2013 1:35:02 PM >


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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 12/20/2013 2:25:21 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

You should be able to adjust the delay settings if you want to see more details.


I might not understand this clearly, but I do change the message frequency, slowing with the control + S and speeding it with control + F, but the combat itself in the H to H seems faster and unaffected by this. Maybe there is something else to alter that? Let me know if there is another way.

I've never used the hot keys to change speeds myself. But if those are sand-box runs and therefore you don't have to worry about your opponent changing speeds on you, you can just use the menu before you open the save game. Click on the + and - buttons to adjust the ones you want (I forget what they are, see the labels).

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/2/2014 8:32:28 PM   
obvert


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What the hell is going on?

After two weeks away I'm not really sure I can say. Jocke had a turn waiting and I dutifully sent it back after looking over the board confusedly for about a half hour, and doing almost nothing. I just got another back, and aside from a minor setback in China, not much is going on.

I am wondering if I can get enough supply to continue being a nuisance, and I'm starting to think I may have to turn off all unit replacements at least for a while. I might also shut down all training, ground the planes and turn as many training groups as I can into kamis and get ready for action. The only issue is that to re-place the planes with something useful will also cost supply. Maybe I'll send them to Manchuria to do this. Not much there, but at least it's off the HI.

My interest is waning to be sure, especially after time away from this one.

_____________________________

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/2/2014 10:01:04 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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Glad to see you back and posting after the Holidays. It does take some time getting reacquainted with the situation after a long break. Bummer about the supply situation, it's definitely something that I've overlooked with all the focus being on HI production.

< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 1/2/2014 11:01:22 PM >


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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/2/2014 11:19:22 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

What the hell is going on?

After two weeks away I'm not really sure I can say. Jocke had a turn waiting and I dutifully sent it back after looking over the board confusedly for about a half hour, and doing almost nothing. I just got another back, and aside from a minor setback in China, not much is going on.

I am wondering if I can get enough supply to continue being a nuisance, and I'm starting to think I may have to turn off all unit replacements at least for a while. I might also shut down all training, ground the planes and turn as many training groups as I can into kamis and get ready for action. The only issue is that to re-place the planes with something useful will also cost supply. Maybe I'll send them to Manchuria to do this. Not much there, but at least it's off the HI.

My interest is waning to be sure, especially after time away from this one.


I think you have hit upon the crux of the IJ problem in the end game ... I think it's supply and not so much Heavy Industry...
You air force strength was amazing and you did an excellent job of attiring the Allies
But replacements come at a very insidious cost .. then there are the losses of supply and building defenses
In the end the IJ run out eventually unless the game ends early ...

What is very interesting is that the IJ can have billions of aircraft in the pools but if they do not have excessive supply
units cannot take replacements ...

I think the game is really at an interesting point in which the IJ have to decide what units will refill and what battles will take place ..



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Post #: 2752
RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/3/2014 3:33:49 PM   
SqzMyLemon


Posts: 4239
Joined: 10/30/2009
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

I think the game is really at an interesting point in which the IJ have to decide what units will refill and what battles will take place .


I also think that as more games go late and more players run into this problem, you'll see a far less aggressive Japan in the future. Couple this with so many Allied players willing to sit back and simply wait to steamroller Japan will lead to many a boring game. Some Japanese players will ignore the supply crunch of the late game simply to provide the fun factor for the first year and a half, but to the detriment of their ability to provide any kind of a challenge in the late game. In my experience when first learning about the game many senior players pointed out that Japan must dictate the pace of the first two years, if the Allies wouldn't fight you had to go out and make them by attacking something important. Well that takes fuel, supply and most often the territory gained can never be held so the Japanese player in an effort to enjoy the "Happy Times" in essence is simply undermining his ability to go deep into the war. Look at how many games now end before historical dates, there's a reason for this and it's a result of Japan having to overreach most times in order to create a rewarding game experience.



< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 1/3/2014 4:46:09 PM >


_____________________________

Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

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Post #: 2753
RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/3/2014 4:09:22 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

I think the game is really at an interesting point in which the IJ have to decide what units will refill and what battles will take place .


I also think that as more games go late and more players run into this problem, you'll see a far less aggressive Japan in the future. Couple this with so many Allied players willing to sit back and simply wait to steamroller Japan will lead to many a boring game. Some Japanese players will ignore the supply crunch of the late game simply to provide the fun factor for the first year and a half, but to the detriment of their ability to provide any kind of a challenge in the late game. In my experience when first learning about the game many senior players pointed out that Japan must dictate the pace of the first two years, if the Allies wouldn't fight you had to go out and make them by attacking something important. Well that takes fuel, supply and most often the territory gained can never be held so the Japanese player in an effort to enjoy the "Happy Times" in essence is simply undermining his ability to go deep into the war. Look at how many games now end before historical dates, there's a reason for this and it's a result of Japan having to overreach most times in order to create a rewarding game experience.



The other strategy might be AV or bust!!! I see why a lot of players now are also going for it. Why play to historical boundaries and wait? At least if you fail in taking India theres a viable reason to capitulate in 43!

I think this will need to be examined further by looking at what supply generation looks like for the WHOLE war and what players can do with that potential total. It's just very fiddly to deal with as you'd have to calculate the increase in base infrastructure for each very different base, supply spoilage and leakage, unit supply costs and even airframe use costs which is pretty overwhelming to think about. Try sending 200 Helens to bomb an airfield and the massive drop in supplies during one day will show what happens all over the map in 42. Ground combat is also very expensive.

I think my game here is only a very small indicator of some pitfalls to watch out for over the course of the contest. I hope to find out where I lost the supply i now need, and where I could have saved it.

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Post #: 2754
RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/3/2014 4:17:37 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

What the hell is going on?

After two weeks away I'm not really sure I can say. Jocke had a turn waiting and I dutifully sent it back after looking over the board confusedly for about a half hour, and doing almost nothing. I just got another back, and aside from a minor setback in China, not much is going on.

I am wondering if I can get enough supply to continue being a nuisance, and I'm starting to think I may have to turn off all unit replacements at least for a while. I might also shut down all training, ground the planes and turn as many training groups as I can into kamis and get ready for action. The only issue is that to re-place the planes with something useful will also cost supply. Maybe I'll send them to Manchuria to do this. Not much there, but at least it's off the HI.

My interest is waning to be sure, especially after time away from this one.


I think you have hit upon the crux of the IJ problem in the end game ... I think it's supply and not so much Heavy Industry...
You air force strength was amazing and you did an excellent job of attiring the Allies
But replacements come at a very insidious cost .. then there are the losses of supply and building defenses
In the end the IJ run out eventually unless the game ends early ...

What is very interesting is that the IJ can have billions of aircraft in the pools but if they do not have excessive supply
units cannot take replacements ...

I think the game is really at an interesting point in which the IJ have to decide what units will refill and what battles will take place ..




I did disband groups often stuck on islands as well as the normal costs of getting groups filled out, and I upgraded at will. I bombed extensively in China early and probably didn't need to so much.

Generally I think the overuse of combat forces and forts/infrastructure building is what used up most of the stuff. Airframe factory changes and R n D also were pretty big factors. Really, when it's the first game played through you have no idea so many of these things will be factors later. I just don't know why they're not discussed much in the primers on the IJ side. I guess most of the focus is making sure things get running properly and not on what happens later.

As is now I have a good number of very viable groups to fight with, enough supply to defend adequately, but not so much to strike with. I'll just have to see how it goes.

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Post #: 2755
RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/3/2014 4:22:43 PM   
SqzMyLemon


Posts: 4239
Joined: 10/30/2009
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

The other strategy might be AV or bust!!! I see why a lot of players now are also going for it. Why play to historical boundaries and wait? At least if you fail in taking India theres a viable reason to capitulate in 43!

I think my game here is only a very small indicator of some pitfalls to watch out for over the course of the contest. I hope to find out where I lost the supply i now need, and where I could have saved it.


Yep, AV or go home.

Actually, you kind of reinforce my point. I agree that your game is a small indicator and you probably could have saved a ton of supply by doing things differently. However, you were aggressive and fought back and that is costly in terms of supply. Crackaces makes a good point, maybe Japanese players need to be more judicial in their use of force throughout the game. You've shown it's costly to fight all through the war with little downtime and now in 45 you've got a supply crunch. Understandable, but at least fighting back was enjoyable despite the cost and situation you are facing now. The alternative is a game like mine...boring. Why just sit and stockpile HI, fuel and supply only to get pounded when the Allies finally start to move? Not fun in the slightest. That's why if I ever play Japan again, I will be much more aggressive because it's fun. You might as well shoot for the stars, the alternative is nothing but a daily grind to defeat with periods of intense boredom simply moving stuff around.

_____________________________

Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)

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Post #: 2756
RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/3/2014 4:30:22 PM   
SqzMyLemon


Posts: 4239
Joined: 10/30/2009
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Generally I think the overuse of combat forces and forts/infrastructure building is what used up most of the stuff. Airframe factory changes and R n D also were pretty big factors. Really, when it's the first game played through you have no idea so many of these things will be factors later. I just don't know why they're not discussed much in the primers on the IJ side. I guess most of the focus is making sure things get running properly and not on what happens later.


I think this will be my game in a nutshell. I'm expending a lot in supply in China bombing everyday and my fort construction throughout the Empire has been extensive. I've also spent a ton of supply on aircraft R&D which will bite me later I'm sure. I think the only thing that offsets my current supply expenditure is the complete lack of combat anywhere else on the map for the last 6 months. I agree with you too, I think the focus has been on HI stockpiling and we're beginning to see supply is even more important to stockpile or increase.

_____________________________

Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 2757
RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/3/2014 5:03:50 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

The other strategy might be AV or bust!!! I see why a lot of players now are also going for it. Why play to historical boundaries and wait? At least if you fail in taking India theres a viable reason to capitulate in 43!

I think my game here is only a very small indicator of some pitfalls to watch out for over the course of the contest. I hope to find out where I lost the supply i now need, and where I could have saved it.


Yep, AV or go home.

Actually, you kind of reinforce my point. I agree that your game is a small indicator and you probably could have saved a ton of supply by doing things differently. However, you were aggressive and fought back and that is costly in terms of supply. Crackaces makes a good point, maybe Japanese players need to be more judicial in their use of force throughout the game. You've shown it's costly to fight all through the war with little downtime and now in 45 you've got a supply crunch. Understandable, but at least fighting back was enjoyable despite the cost and situation you are facing now. The alternative is a game like mine...boring. Why just sit and stockpile HI, fuel and supply only to get pounded when the Allies finally start to move? Not fun in the slightest. That's why if I ever play Japan again, I will be much more aggressive because it's fun. You might as well shoot for the stars, the alternative is nothing but a daily grind to defeat with periods of intense boredom simply moving stuff around.


Forget that! AV is...really hard, IMO. The Allied player needs to basically let you have it, whether he realizes he is or not, or else commit several huge blunders that cost him lots of VPs. If you go for the AV and miss, you won't have the supplies to make it even as far as Obvert has.

I think there is plenty of opportunity to make the Allies bleed as they advance, delaying the game long enough to achieve victory for Japan within the terms of the game. But what do I know, I've never played a human beyond March of 1942. We'll see if it pans out for me.

(in reply to SqzMyLemon)
Post #: 2758
RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/3/2014 5:18:18 PM   
SqzMyLemon


Posts: 4239
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From: Alberta, Canada
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I think your opponent and their play style often dictates much of the game in terms of level of resistance. That's probably my biggest problem. I need to learn how to dictate play and not care one iota about how my opponent plays. I come up with a strategy and it's up to him to stop me or not. The successful Japanese players are the ones that play their game, have a plan and force the Allied player to react or risk losing to auto-victory or a draw.

All I know is sitting around waiting is boring. That's on me, but I'm never keen on having to chase someone around the map just to hope they will fight back. Next time I choose a strategy that makes my opponent fight so I have some fun for a change. If I crash and burn in 43 so be it.

< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 1/3/2014 6:21:59 PM >


_____________________________

Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)

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Post #: 2759
RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/3/2014 5:28:47 PM   
FeurerKrieg


Posts: 3397
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline
Having a clear plan and stopping your advance on your own terms is key I think. If you can get to your goals and slow down operations early on, it gives you that much more time to stockpile supplies for the late war. I've already started making a number of changes to my plans based on this AAR. While it might have been nice to make them earlier, I figure better late than never.

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