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RE: Wild Sheep Chase

 
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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/28/2014 12:53:21 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Part of the coordination issue might be the cruise speeds ... Nettie cruise is really slow


The overwhelming majority of the 2E at Hiroshima where this strike came from are either Frances or Peggy, so not so slow. This I think is the only group of slower 2E bombers. Why wouldn't they then be slower than the Sams and Franks here and simply come in with the Oscars?

The fact that the bettys are the ones here flabbergasts me. Also have a look at the number of different models. Lots of different cruise speeds for the fighters and the FB here escorting.

< Message edited by obvert -- 1/28/2014 1:55:42 PM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 2911
RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/28/2014 1:08:58 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Don't try and land near the HI without bombing the crap out of all airfields in range first.

Good stuff BTW


I was surprised there have been no attempts to bomb the airfields from the plethora of bases now in range. Granted, it would be painful, but I'd sure rather lose 200 planes than 50 ships.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Captain Cruft)
Post #: 2912
RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/28/2014 1:09:26 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
... until I realized less than 20 strike planes were with each of the first few packages that had plenty of firepower to break through. This kind of difficulty in coordinating from 3-5 hexes out with something like 8 air HQs in range and the escorts fully coordinated makes no sense. Having go the better of the two days I can't complain, but it's silly to have several hundred fighters leading 15 DB while later strikes all come in solo, even though they originated in the same base.

Conventional wisdom about coordination just doesn't work in the beta, especially in massive battles like this late in game.


This is a very common error on the forums. The replays are always interpreted as different missions separated by time and space, as well as any influence of CAP position and numbers is dismissed as unimportant. Failure to arrive in a big block is always a coordination error no matter what.

The different replays do
- not neccessarily reflect separate missions
- not neccessarily reflect separate formations
- are influenced by number of planes total
- are influenced by number of CAP and detection of individual strike elements
- in addition is often influenced by fatigue and morale values (which already might vary radically depending on the squadrons involved the previous turn)

In your specific case the replay most probably shows the majority of escorts moving in first and mixing up with CAP, with many of the CAP fighters not even in visual range of the bombers, and some other elements of your bomber formations getting through untouched and unseen, or engaged without protection as the fighters were already commited to battle.

Actually it is a very plausable replay (which must have been FUN to watch...)


I get this part, but I'd have to say in this instance this explanation is not likely. Most of the other bombers simply didn't attack this TF where the fighters escorted small numbers of strike planes. I may be able to piece it together later, but most of the bombers from these bases struck other targets entirely instead of following on as you say into the same stream of strikes at this one target.

The strikes that hit ships ALL went to different targets, sometimes 5-8 hexes from these CVEs that most of the escorts flew into.

The escort penalty also doesn't make a lot of sense here if the 200 escorts are guiding in 15 bombers. Yet they suffer terribly in spite of being some of the best pilots on the map for the Japanese forces.

The Japanese surely wouldn't have been able to do something like this, wouldn't have this many good planes and pilots, etc, so I get that this is some kind of abstraction that actually works for the game I'm in, but the Allies have suffered the same fate multiple times. Is it really likely that 600 Hellcats would escort 25 Helldivers with nothing following as we saw just a few turns back?


Agree, dificult to piece it together without watchin the replays. Also you are correct that the different loacation of the targets makes the explanation offered improbable.

Still, I would not jump conclusions on your strike/escort distribution being implausable.

I understand the escorts went were most of the CAP was concentrated, and the other targets were attacked nearly unmolested while also lacking CAP. Only where the CAP concentration was highest, the few bombers - decidcing to strike at the most dangerous and well protected targets - did not get through. Is this more or less correct? I would regard that as expected/desireable behaviour within the games´ limitations.

_____________________________


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Post #: 2913
RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/28/2014 1:26:59 PM   
catwhoorg


Posts: 686
Joined: 9/27/2012
From: Uk expat lving near Atlanta
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Was a brave effort to stem the tide

Banzai!


(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 2914
RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/28/2014 2:22:04 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
... until I realized less than 20 strike planes were with each of the first few packages that had plenty of firepower to break through. This kind of difficulty in coordinating from 3-5 hexes out with something like 8 air HQs in range and the escorts fully coordinated makes no sense. Having go the better of the two days I can't complain, but it's silly to have several hundred fighters leading 15 DB while later strikes all come in solo, even though they originated in the same base.

Conventional wisdom about coordination just doesn't work in the beta, especially in massive battles like this late in game.


This is a very common error on the forums. The replays are always interpreted as different missions separated by time and space, as well as any influence of CAP position and numbers is dismissed as unimportant. Failure to arrive in a big block is always a coordination error no matter what.

The different replays do
- not neccessarily reflect separate missions
- not neccessarily reflect separate formations
- are influenced by number of planes total
- are influenced by number of CAP and detection of individual strike elements
- in addition is often influenced by fatigue and morale values (which already might vary radically depending on the squadrons involved the previous turn)

In your specific case the replay most probably shows the majority of escorts moving in first and mixing up with CAP, with many of the CAP fighters not even in visual range of the bombers, and some other elements of your bomber formations getting through untouched and unseen, or engaged without protection as the fighters were already commited to battle.

Actually it is a very plausable replay (which must have been FUN to watch...)


I get this part, but I'd have to say in this instance this explanation is not likely. Most of the other bombers simply didn't attack this TF where the fighters escorted small numbers of strike planes. I may be able to piece it together later, but most of the bombers from these bases struck other targets entirely instead of following on as you say into the same stream of strikes at this one target.

The strikes that hit ships ALL went to different targets, sometimes 5-8 hexes from these CVEs that most of the escorts flew into.

The escort penalty also doesn't make a lot of sense here if the 200 escorts are guiding in 15 bombers. Yet they suffer terribly in spite of being some of the best pilots on the map for the Japanese forces.

The Japanese surely wouldn't have been able to do something like this, wouldn't have this many good planes and pilots, etc, so I get that this is some kind of abstraction that actually works for the game I'm in, but the Allies have suffered the same fate multiple times. Is it really likely that 600 Hellcats would escort 25 Helldivers with nothing following as we saw just a few turns back?


Agree, dificult to piece it together without watchin the replays. Also you are correct that the different loacation of the targets makes the explanation offered improbable.

Still, I would not jump conclusions on your strike/escort distribution being implausable.

I understand the escorts went were most of the CAP was concentrated, and the other targets were attacked nearly unmolested while also lacking CAP. Only where the CAP concentration was highest, the few bombers - decidcing to strike at the most dangerous and well protected targets - did not get through. Is this more or less correct? I would regard that as expected/desireable behaviour within the games´ limitations.


I'll look again but from what I remember there were still bombers flying into CAP without escort, just at targets other than the ones the escorts went for mostly. As I say though it is tough with so much flying to check it all out. One thing I can do is look at groups and see which were decimated!

I understand based on my original comments how it would look more like a series of strikes that were all heading in the same direction. I'll try to confirm when I dig through it. It's important to see if this really is the game getting a bit overwhelmed with the numbers and units involved, or some other kind of user malfunction, or a little of both.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 2915
RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/28/2014 3:05:24 PM   
Lokasenna


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Very nice day 2, even with the lack of coordination in your LBA. Is there any room for more micromanagement there? Can you set your strikes in layers, with corresponding escorts? That might help give escorts to each strike package, but it also may mean you end up with 1/5 of your forces flying into a CAP wall, 5 times in a row... I think I prefer what you had happen, and I like LoBaron's interpretation.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 2916
RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/28/2014 3:14:41 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Very nice day 2, even with the lack of coordination in your LBA. Is there any room for more micromanagement there? Can you set your strikes in layers, with corresponding escorts? That might help give escorts to each strike package, but it also may mean you end up with 1/5 of your forces flying into a CAP wall, 5 times in a row... I think I prefer what you had happen, and I like LoBaron's interpretation.


This is the issue. Even though with multiple layers I've had most groups come in uncoordinated at more than 3-4 hexes. I tried this from Formosa a while back, with every group having dedicated escorts. Some that were set at one altitude went with planes at another, some went in with no escort, some went with a bunch but no strike planes. All of it.

This time everything is set at either 10k or 15k. Nagasaki got 10k. Hiroshima, Fukuoka and Kagoshima got 15k if I remember correctly. I still had planes from Nagasaki and Kagoshima coming together in the same strike, but the bombers going elsewhere.

If anyone is curious, here is the entire CR attached.



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 1/28/2014 4:15:50 PM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 2917
RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/28/2014 3:20:28 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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ALLIED SHIPS HIT
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

1 CV confirmed sunk, 4 CV likely sunk

CV Bunker Hill, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires
CV Bunker Hill, Shell hits 9, on fire, heavy damage
CV Bunker Hill, Shell hits 10, on fire, heavy damage
CV Bunker Hill, and is sunk

CV Viking, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 3, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
Ammo storage explosion on CV Viking

CV Valhalla, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Valhalla, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
Ammo storage explosion on CV Valhalla

CV Victorious, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Victorious, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Victorious, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Victorious, Bomb hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage

CV Franklin, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
Ammo storage explosion on CV Franklin

CV Indefatigable, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Indefatigable, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Indefatigable, heavy fires, heavy damage

CV Randolph, Kamikaze hits 1

CV Midgaard, Bomb hits 1, on fire

CV Illustrious, Bomb hits 3, on fire

CV Shangri-La, Bomb hits 1, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

CV Yggdrasil, Bomb hits 1, on fire

3 CVL confirmed sunk

CVL Cabot, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
Fuel storage explosion on CVL Cabot
Fuel storage explosion on CVL Cabot

Ammo storage explosion on CVL Cabot

CVL Independence, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
Fuel storage explosion on CVL Independence

CVL Langley, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CVL Langley, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
Ammo storage explosion on CVL Langley
Ammo storage explosion on CVL Langley


CVL Cowpens, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
CVL Cowpens, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
CVL Cowpens, heavy fires

8 CVE confirmed sunk

CVE Roi, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
Fuel storage explosion on CVE Roi
CVE Roi, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk


CVE Corregidor, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CVE Corregidor, Shell hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
Massive explosion on CVE Corregidor

CVE Saginaw Bay, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CVE Saginaw Bay, Shell hits 7, Torpedo hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
Fuel storage explosion on CVE Saginaw Bay

CVE Matanikau, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CVE Matanikau, Shell hits 9, and is sunk
Fuel storage explosion on CVE Matanikau


CVE Shipley Bay, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
CVE Shipley Bay, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
Ammo storage explosion on CVE Shipley Bay

CVE Makassar Strait, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CVE Makassar Strait, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk

CVE Takanis Bay, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk

CVE Windham Bay, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CVE Windham Bay, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk

CVE Stalker, Kamikaze hits 1

CVE Block Island, Kamikaze hits 1

CVE Thetis Bay, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

CVE Liscome Bay, Kamikaze hits 1

CVE Makin Island, Torpedo hits 1



BB Maryland, Torpedo hits 2, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire

BB Nevada, Bomb hits 1

BB Nevada, Torpedo hits 2

BB Idaho, Torpedo hits 1

BB Colorado, Bomb hits 1

BB Arizona,]Torpedo hits 1

BB King George V, Kamikaze hits 1

BB Queen Elizabeth, Kamikaze hits 1


CA Chester, Kamikaze hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

CA Suffolk, Torpedo hits 1

CA Dorsetshire, Torpedo hits 1

CA Cornwall, Torpedo hits 1

CA Tuscaloosa, Torpedo hits 1


CL Montpelier, Torpedo hits 3, heavy damage

CL Pasadena, Kamikaze hits 2, on fire

CL Heimdal, Kamikaze hits 1

CL Wilkes-Barre, Kamikaze hits 1

CL Phoenix, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires

CL Cleveland, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire

CL Springfield, Kamikaze hits 1

CL Honolulu, Torpedo hits 1

CL St. Louis, Torpedo hits 1


CLAA Oakland, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage

CLAA San Diego, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage


14 confirmed DD sunk

DD Warrington, Shell hits 9, and is sunk

DD Stephen Potter, Shell hits 8, and is sunk

DD Twining, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

DD Mertz, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Mertz, Shell hits 8, and is sunk

DD Evans,Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
DD Evans, Shell hits 4, heavy damage
DD Evans, Shell hits 5, and is sunk

DD Izard, Shell hits 6, and is sunk

DD Halford, Bomb hits 1
DD Halford, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Halford, Shell hits 7, and is sunk

DD John Henley, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
Magazine explodes on DD John Henley

DD Haraden, Shell hits 4, and is sunk

DD Schroeder, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

DD Dyson, Shell hits 11, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

DD Braine, Shell hits 8, and is sunk

DD Dashiell, Shell hits 7, on fire
DD Dashiell, Shell hits 22, and is sunk

DD Johnston, Shell hits 7, and is sunk

DD Hopewell, Shell hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage

DD Purdy, Shell hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage

DD Remey, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
Massive explosion on DD Remey

DD Kempenfelt, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

DD Thompson, Shell hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage

DD Grenville, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage

DD Brownson, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy damage

DD Hammann, Kamikaze hits 1

DD Downes, Shell hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage

DD De Haven II, Shell hits 10, on fire

DD Luce, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage

DD Albert Grant, Bomb hits 2, on fire

DD LaVallette, Kamikaze hits 1

DD Murray, Kamikaze hits 1

DD Morrison, Kamikaze hits 1

3 transports confirmed sunk


xAP Neptuna, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk

APA Telfair, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk

APA Doyen, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk

APA La Salle, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

AKA Chara, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

AK Manderson Victory, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

APA Renville, Bomb hits 2, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage

APA Pickens, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage

APA Marathon, Kamikaze hits 2, on fire

APA Natrona, Kamikaze hits 2

APA Sumter, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires

APA Mellette, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage

APA Menifee, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage

APA George Clymer, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

APA Harris, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage

APA Wayne, Bomb hits 2, on fire

xAP Cape Meares, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires

APA Ormsby, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
Massive explosion on APA Ormsby

APA Warren, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

APA Noble, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

APA J. Franklin Bell, Kamikaze hits 1

APA George F. Elliot, Kamikaze hits 1

APA Charles Carroll, Kamikaze hits 1

APA John Penn, Kamikaze hits 1

APA Sarasota, Kamikaze hits 1

AKA Alhena, Kamikaze hits 1

AKA Libra, Kamikaze hits 1

APA Neville, Kamikaze hits 1

APA Barnett, Kamikaze hits 1

APA Oxford, Kamikaze hits 1

APA Harris, Kamikaze hits 1

APA Thomas Jefferson, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire

APA Latimer, Kamikaze hits 1

APA La Porte, Kamikaze hits 1

APA George Clymer, Kamikaze hits 1

APA Griggs, Torpedo hits 1

AKA Hydrus, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage

AKA Southampton, Bomb hits 1, on fire

APA Laurens, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires

APA Joseph T. Dickman, Bomb hits 1, on fire


DE Osmus, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage

DE Paul G. Baker, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

DE Alvin C. Cockrell, Bomb hits 2, on fire

DE Cloues, Shell hits 3, on fire


< Message edited by obvert -- 1/29/2014 11:38:42 AM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 2918
RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/28/2014 3:31:42 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
IJN SHIPS HIT
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

3 BB sunk

BB Haruna, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
BB Haruna, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk

BB Hiei, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk

BB Kongo, Bomb hits 9, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage

1 CL sunk

CL Agano, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
CL Agano, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage


AMC Saigon Maru, Shell hits 27, heavy fires, heavy damage


13 IJN DD sunk

DD Sugi, Bomb hits 3, and is sunk

DD Oite, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk

DD Kawakaze, Bomb hits 5, and is sunk

DD Onami, Shell hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage

DD Asashimo, Shell hits 25, and is sunk

DD Okinami, Shell hits 33, and is sunk

DD Kishinami, Shell hits 18, and is sunk

DD Arare, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

DD Tachibana, Shell hits 30, and is sunk

DD Nire, Shell hits 4, and is sunk

DD Kaki, Shell hits 20, and is sunk

DD Nashi, Shell hits 18, and is sunk

DD Sumire, Shell hits 11, and is sunk

DD Kawakaze, Shell hits 5, on fire, heavy damage

DD Kawakaze, Shell hits 2, on fire

DD Maikaze, Shell hits 6, heavy fires

DD Hagi, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

DD Kaede, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage

DD Hayate, Bomb hits 1, on fire

DD Enoki, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage


< Message edited by obvert -- 1/28/2014 4:50:31 PM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 2919
RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/28/2014 4:19:27 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
Great battle Erik!

I know how it feels... LBA coordinates only 1 out of 10 times. The only real coordination comes from the KB

However, even if the allies managed to land where they wished, the losses inflicted are really unaffordable for the allies. At least in RL, they would have already fired the commander in chief and possibly seeked for an armistice... try to imagine how many US sailors are dead in these two days...20,000? possibly more...

The fact that the allies simply have too much at this stage to really stop them doesn't make this a smaller victory for Japan. This WaS a victory.

I've witnessed, under the official patch against Rader, that it's simply a suicide to get so close to the HI with the DS... no matter how many planes you have on CAP... the strikes will always get through.
As the others have said, Joc should have tried to close as much AFs as possible before trying that...

In the coordination thing, have you taken into account the weather (both at the starting bases and at the arriving hexes), the AS at the starting bases and the other factors?

Lately I've come to a point where I consider weather the most important factor in the coordination thing...

I've made several attempts to coordinate my LBA lately.... and the only thing that really matters (or at least that can be easily checked) is weather. If no clouds are present at the starting hexes and if the arrival hex has no storms, the chances to coordinate between multiple bases are much higher.

I've managed to coordinate the LBA (regarding ground targets btw) between 5 different bases into a single big strike... and did it twice in two days in a row!... but only because of weather I think (well, obviously also following all the other LoBaron's suggestions)


(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 2920
RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/28/2014 4:36:06 PM   
SqzMyLemon


Posts: 4239
Joined: 10/30/2009
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

I was surprised there have been no attempts to bomb the airfields from the plethora of bases now in range. Granted, it would be painful, but I'd sure rather lose 200 planes than 50 ships.


Something tells me I'll be the one paying for this observation.

Great stuff though. This was a boost to your late war morale for sure. I agree with GreyJoy, considering the situation it's a fantastic Japanese tactical victory. Can't comment on the war weariness or if heads would roll since this is a game and the RL consequences have no bearing. Well done though!



_____________________________

Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 2921
RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/28/2014 6:30:19 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Great battle Erik!

I know how it feels... LBA coordinates only 1 out of 10 times. The only real coordination comes from the KB

However, even if the allies managed to land where they wished, the losses inflicted are really unaffordable for the allies. At least in RL, they would have already fired the commander in chief and possibly seeked for an armistice... try to imagine how many US sailors are dead in these two days...20,000? possibly more...

The fact that the allies simply have too much at this stage to really stop them doesn't make this a smaller victory for Japan. This WaS a victory.

I've witnessed, under the official patch against Rader, that it's simply a suicide to get so close to the HI with the DS... no matter how many planes you have on CAP... the strikes will always get through.
As the others have said, Joc should have tried to close as much AFs as possible before trying that...

In the coordination thing, have you taken into account the weather (both at the starting bases and at the arriving hexes), the AS at the starting bases and the other factors?

Lately I've come to a point where I consider weather the most important factor in the coordination thing...

I've made several attempts to coordinate my LBA lately.... and the only thing that really matters (or at least that can be easily checked) is weather. If no clouds are present at the starting hexes and if the arrival hex has no storms, the chances to coordinate between multiple bases are much higher.

I've managed to coordinate the LBA (regarding ground targets btw) between 5 different bases into a single big strike... and did it twice in two days in a row!... but only because of weather I think (well, obviously also following all the other LoBaron's suggestions)



Thanks Nic!

There was heavy cloud over the CVE TF that most escorts went for without their strike planes. The main bases look to be light rain/light cloud.

Japan's ability, even as hampered as I am now, is so far out of the range of what they could do in real life I can see how the Allies in game can justify the losses. Still it feels good, it gives me a sense that I've done what I can this time, and now we've got a new front to fight.

I'll try to piece together a bit more of the groups and see what went where later. No time tonight.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 2922
RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/28/2014 6:33:36 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

I was surprised there have been no attempts to bomb the airfields from the plethora of bases now in range. Granted, it would be painful, but I'd sure rather lose 200 planes than 50 ships.


Something tells me I'll be the one paying for this observation.

Great stuff though. This was a boost to your late war morale for sure. I agree with GreyJoy, considering the situation it's a fantastic Japanese tactical victory. Can't comment on the war weariness or if heads would roll since this is a game and the RL consequences have no bearing. Well done though!




It's odd because generally he plasters everything before moving forward. That is why I mention that maybe the timeline of the game has gotten into his psyche a bit too much. There is really no need to make this move as far as I can see.

I also just got news from Jocke that the one-sided strike on the Allied CVs was due to his settings!!!

If I understand him correctly he limited the strike range so as not to hit ships under heavy CAP at Nagasaki and elsewhere. I'm sure his thinking was that he had enough CAP, but the KB came through again. As he said in his note, this was the ONE day to strike, and I got it right this time.

In a related note Jocke asked in his message if we have differing views on the Kwangtung Army. He seems to be under the impression that troops from Manchuria would not be allowed to move to Korea based on our HR. I've been moving them back and forth all game as they are governed by the same HQ and the Manchuria garrison includes Korea in its calculations.

Is this normal? I can't imagine limiting troops to not defend close to the Home Islands and keep them on the Russian border after a major Allied landing.

< Message edited by obvert -- 1/28/2014 7:36:25 PM >


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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/28/2014 7:12:26 PM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
Japan's ability, even as hampered as I am now, is so far out of the range of what they could do in real life I can see how the Allies in game can justify the losses.


I do not think that your victory has anything to do with Japans ingame capabilities compared to real life (with the possible exception of pilot training).

I am in no way trying to lessen your achievement here over the last turns, but Jockmeister simply came in dumb, unprepared, and chose to run straight into the possibly best defended area you had left. He learned a lot in your PBEM, but this specific op was simply bad play on a strategic level, and mediocre on a tactical level.

Had the Allies invaded the HI in a similar fashion in WWII, without any target prep AND without local naval supremacy AND without complete surprise, the losses would have been horrendous.

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/28/2014 7:35:05 PM   
koniu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


In a related note Jocke asked in his message if we have differing views on the Kwangtung Army. He seems to be under the impression that troops from Manchuria would not be allowed to move to Korea based on our HR. I've been moving them back and forth all game as they are governed by the same HQ and the Manchuria garrison includes Korea in its calculations.

Is this normal? I can't imagine limiting troops to not defend close to the Home Islands and keep them on the Russian border after a major Allied landing.


I was thinking about that also.
In real war i think Japan will move all what they have can to push back invasion back to sea.
You are in place where in real world army man will say f**k politicians and will do everything necessary to win.

Manchuria garrison is 8000AV before SU will activate. I think it should be natural to be able to move everything from Manchuria above 8k without paying PP.
But HR is HR

If this is true that Kore is counted as Manchuria garrison It will allow You to move entire garrison south to fight with invasion. Only thing holding You is HR. I wounder about reaction of SU if they see that entire Manchuria army is abandoning position and is moving south. To much speculations, i alo not know in what stage of preparation was Su in may, they prabably where not ready to attack becouse war in Europe end just week ealier.


< Message edited by koniu -- 1/28/2014 8:46:12 PM >


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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/28/2014 9:15:29 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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Wow. Amazing series of battles Obvert. Devastating for the Allies. Nicely done!

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/28/2014 9:19:19 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


In a related note Jocke asked in his message if we have differing views on the Kwangtung Army. He seems to be under the impression that troops from Manchuria would not be allowed to move to Korea based on our HR. I've been moving them back and forth all game as they are governed by the same HQ and the Manchuria garrison includes Korea in its calculations.

Is this normal? I can't imagine limiting troops to not defend close to the Home Islands and keep them on the Russian border after a major Allied landing.


I was thinking about that also.
In real war i think Japan will move all what they have can to push back invasion back to sea.
You are in place where in real world army man will say f**k politicians and will do everything necessary to win.

Manchuria garrison is 8000AV before SU will activate. I think it should be natural to be able to move everything from Manchuria above 8k without paying PP.
But HR is HR

If this is true that Kore is counted as Manchuria garrison It will allow You to move entire garrison south to fight with invasion. Only thing holding You is HR. I wounder about reaction of SU if they see that entire Manchuria army is abandoning position and is moving south. To much speculations, i alo not know in what stage of preparation was Su in may, they prabably where not ready to attack becouse war in Europe end just week ealier.



Exactly. The garrison does for sure count the troops in Korea, so I never thought of it as separate. I've been moving troops all over the place there because most arrive all over the place. A bunch come in Korea, some in the North, but all are under the Kwangtung Army. There is no Korean Army HQ.

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/28/2014 9:30:33 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
Japan's ability, even as hampered as I am now, is so far out of the range of what they could do in real life I can see how the Allies in game can justify the losses.


I do not think that your victory has anything to do with Japans ingame capabilities compared to real life (with the possible exception of pilot training).

I am in no way trying to lessen your achievement here over the last turns, but Jockmeister simply came in dumb, unprepared, and chose to run straight into the possibly best defended area you had left. He learned a lot in your PBEM, but this specific op was simply bad play on a strategic level, and mediocre on a tactical level.

Had the Allies invaded the HI in a similar fashion in WWII, without any target prep AND without local naval supremacy AND without complete surprise, the losses would have been horrendous.


Right.

I always wonder, as the CVs were off the HI quite a lot, and BBs bombarded facilities in Japan, so it makes me think either the Japanese were waiting for that one big decisive battle pushing the Allies off of the beaches, or they simply couldn't have had this big of an impact with what was left. I guess that will never be known.

Losing cruiser late (Indy) or having one kami hit on a CV (Franklin) was a catastrophe in the war. The kind of destruction seen here the last few turns would have been unbelievable, completely. Worse than Midway in terms of actual losses and many times worse in terms of ships damaged, casualties and momentum change at that point.

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/28/2014 9:32:08 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Wow. Amazing series of battles Obvert. Devastating for the Allies. Nicely done!


Right place, right time. At last. I've rolled the dice so many times in this game, and only a few have come up sixes. Feels good when it does.

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/28/2014 10:27:07 PM   
catwhoorg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Exactly. The garrison does for sure count the troops in Korea, so I never thought of it as separate. I've been moving troops all over the place there because most arrive all over the place. A bunch come in Korea, some in the North, but all are under the Kwangtung Army. There is no Korean Army HQ.



There's the very reasonable answer to the query.

I must admit I wasn't aware of that.

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/28/2014 10:54:17 PM   
Barb


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I think, that Jock had put up a worst possible operation - in strategic terms, executed very badly tactically, without surprise, against prepared opposition, ... On the other side you have got it right and in the right moment. Congratulations to you, you did a great job here.

Anyway Korea is counted as Manchuria in terms of garrison requirements in game. It also has no separate Army level HQ, so I would not call it against House Rules to move units between Korea and Manchuria.

However in reality, Manchukuo was a puppet state, while Korea was annexed as Japanese territory. In game terms this would mean moving a home defense restricted units to Korea for free - with current code, impossible. So probably it was designers decision to include Korea into Manchuria.
It would also be interesting what the Soviets would do in the case of most Japanese troops moving to Korea (were they prepared to launch an offensive??).

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/28/2014 11:50:07 PM   
PaxMondo


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+1

Units there count as part of the MAN garrison, for me that means you can move them there w/o penalty ... never even considered otherwise ... why would you leave troops to get cut-off? Makes no sense, saving troops trumps politics.

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/29/2014 3:05:30 AM   
Lokasenna


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Joc may not be aware that Korea/Manchuria count as the same for the garrison. Given the HR issues that have come up with this game already... it might be worth informing him.

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/29/2014 5:33:00 AM   
FeurerKrieg


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Since there is no Korea Army HQ, there can't be a restriction on moving Manchuria troops to Korea since what would you switch the Manchukuo units to? Manchuria units to China makes sense since there is a command you could change to (although since China is restricted I just switch them to SAA anyways).

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/29/2014 6:59:28 AM   
jonreb31


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Great battle to witness. As a primarily Japanese player I now know more hope!


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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/29/2014 8:05:09 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

I think, that Jock had put up a worst possible operation - in strategic terms, executed very badly tactically, without surprise, against prepared opposition, ... On the other side you have got it right and in the right moment. Congratulations to you, you did a great job here.

Anyway Korea is counted as Manchuria in terms of garrison requirements in game. It also has no separate Army level HQ, so I would not call it against House Rules to move units between Korea and Manchuria.

However in reality, Manchukuo was a puppet state, while Korea was annexed as Japanese territory. In game terms this would mean moving a home defense restricted units to Korea for free - with current code, impossible. So probably it was designers decision to include Korea into Manchuria.
It would also be interesting what the Soviets would do in the case of most Japanese troops moving to Korea (were they prepared to launch an offensive??).


The inability to move Home Island restrict troops is a huge oversight in this game IMHO. To not be able to move from Honshu to Hokkaido even is pretty unrealistic. Now I have a ton of troops in Hokkaido that are Southern Army and other HQs because i couldn't fly equipment and couldn't move troops by sea.

The game does treat Korea and Manchuria as one, and this, as Pax points out also, is the only sensible way to do it since Korea would be the most primary defense area. Doesn't make sense to not fight for Korea at least while holding dearly to Manchuria.

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/29/2014 8:13:46 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Joc may not be aware that Korea/Manchuria count as the same for the garrison. Given the HR issues that have come up with this game already... it might be worth informing him.


Looks like he's not going to stick on that point, and says he would have made the move even if he thought it was all one area. So now we're in for some big battles I'm sure. I'm not sure I can get enough troops there to defeat an Allied force, but I might be able to get enough to stop them without getting more than a few bases. A few level 9 fields will be tough, but not catastrophic if not too close.

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/29/2014 8:33:04 AM   
MrBlizzard


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These battles are really a great show to see, amazing at this stage in war.
Allied were a bit overconfident this time.
And this appears to be just the beginning because of the miscalculation of Korea/Manchukuo HQ.
I suppose your opponent was misguided by the borders drawn in map. Manchukuo and Korea are divided by borders BUT are under the same command (Manchukuo HQ). So there isn't PP and HR issue here. We must admit that for an Allied player this is difficult to know or imagine unless he has played Japan at least once.
Discovering this in the hard way will be a real blow for Joke's morale..
How many AV have you got on Manchukuo?


< Message edited by MrBlizzard -- 1/29/2014 9:35:29 AM >


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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/29/2014 10:11:25 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard

These battles are really a great show to see, amazing at this stage in war.
Allied were a bit overconfident this time.
And this appears to be just the beginning because of the miscalculation of Korea/Manchukuo HQ.
I suppose your opponent was misguided by the borders drawn in map. Manchukuo and Korea are divided by borders BUT are under the same command (Manchukuo HQ). So there isn't PP and HR issue here. We must admit that for an Allied player this is difficult to know or imagine unless he has played Japan at least once.
Discovering this in the hard way will be a real blow for Joke's morale..
How many AV have you got on Manchukuo?


The numbers show about 14k AV. Now that is a lot of under filled divisions as I haven't had supply to fill them up. So not as strong as it could be, but there are a lot of decent early war Manchurian divisions with 60+ exp here. Supply will be a struggle, but in China we've seen lately that even low on supply a defending force can slow down a major Allied Army.

The key points for me will be not giving up major bases like Fusan and Keijo. We'll see.

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/29/2014 10:43:18 AM   
obvert


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[left this for a while as I was in the middle of making a map ad got distracted]

Here it is. I don't want to try and mark up all of the various TFs. There are CVs off of Kyushu and off of Moppo. The SAGs are spread 4-6 hexes off of Kagoshima. Al of mine except a few Es have retreated to Nagasaki. The two TFs of the KB at Nagasaki will attempt a run to Maizuro tomorrow. Could be dicey, but some BBs will move with them, and there are lots of mines int eh area to slow anything coming.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 1/29/2014 4:53:48 PM >


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