Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Ron

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ORIGINAL: Barthheart

Sorry you didn't like the game redmarkus.

HoS was never intended to be a detailed simulation of infantry tactics in WWII. It is intended to be a
squad level combat game set in WWII.

Actually after reading the AAR and watching the two videos in another thread this morning, I have to second what Redmarkus said as that is the overwhelmingly impression I get as well. I think everyone has certain perceptions on WWII combat, but your statement seems very misleading. It should read:

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It is intended to be a squad level fantasy game set in WWII.

Ironically what caught my eye initially was the lovely maps and artwork, brought back a sense of nostalgia I guess. However, once I started to learn more re the gameplay, it did more than raise an eyebrow.

1. Units moving with relative impunity in open terrain towards the enemy, even to point blank range.
2. Drawing fire by said movement in order to magically render that enemy unit incapable of responding further.
3. Entering into Melee combat with said enemy to dispatch it, seemingly the preferred(!) method of eliminating the enemy in this game.

What about fire and movement? Area fire into suspected enemy locations, basic lessons on infantry tactics learned from WWI etc. Surely the 'training' and methods employed weren't let's charge them and close assault as accepted practice put forward here! The WWII wrapping is pretty thin. I know I will get blasted for this and obviously this game is 'fun' for some and not for me, but to imply realistic WWII tactics are represented is a fallacy.

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Sure there are things that are not realistic. There are dice rolling on my computer screen, for example.

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ORIGINAL: fentum

Yes. I enjoy the game but I do miss a 'final op fire' concept like the one in BOB:SE. This allows even finished units to fire if an enemy moves adjacent.

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ORIGINAL: z1812

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ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

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ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

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ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

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ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Just played it again. On T6 the girl ran into a house next to a Soviet unit. I moved Wurtz there but before he could take command of her and move her to safety, she was killed by Soviet fire. Immediate defeat. All other achievements irrelevant.

Damn it. I'm tired of complaining on these forums and sounding like a psycho. Uninstall and back to real life for me!

Wow the game is that hard for you? I haven't met a game yet that I couldn't eventually beat. I really gota get this one as it sounds better than Pandora.

Well, good for you! But did you beat it by applying realistic military tactics such as suppression fire and maneuver, keeping one foot on the ground etc? I was an infantry officer for 10 years and trust me, I NEVER sent a squad forward to draw the enemy's fire and uncover his positions - the surest way to get yourself fragged, by the way. In this game I can't even employ MG fire on possible enemy positions, THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL INFANTRY TACTIC. But there I go again, taking on the Pandora gamers and expecting a sensible conversation about WW2 combat. Happy 'GAMING' LOL

That's the problem you are applying modern day tactics in a WWII game. You need to play like a WWII leader or commander would have. They DID send out scouts to find out a snipers position or other troops and if he got shot they knew where they were. You can't be a nice guy in WAR. It's dog eat dog and kill or be killed. None of this "but, they are my men" they're just chits on a shingle to me and I probably have one of the worst troop lost records on the books, but, I win.

@aaatoysandmore: Redmarkus has definitely been around the block a few more times than you when it comes to wargaming and I daresay in the real world Military.

So when it comes to a point of view, I will respect his and not yours.

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The advertising focuses on gameplay, not realism or simulation quality. And as always, there will be some who like it and some who don't. Try to make it more "realistic" and more of a simulation, and it will possibly lose some of the very qualities that people who like the system enjoy.

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ORIGINAL: markhwalker

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The advertising focuses on gameplay, not realism or simulation quality. And as always, there will be some who like it and some who don't. Try to make it more "realistic" and more of a simulation, and it will possibly lose some of the very qualities that people who like the system enjoy.

The thought of realism vs gameplay always makes me chuckle. It's as if a game that uses multiple charts, caliber calculations, and minutia is somehow more realistic. I believe LnL is an incredibly realistic depiction of squad-level combat. War is chaos, not the well ordered game boards of our game tables. War isn't decided by rate of fire, but rather humans, heroes and cowards (although we are all cowards at one time or another). Skirmishes, indeed entire battles, are decided by the most improbable of circumstances at the most unlikely of times. People say LnL feels like Hollywood. I say their wrong. What it feels like is life, real life.

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ORIGINAL: Fascist Dog

On the other hand, it's sufficiently like ASL that I can't believe that it will be long before we start seeing lots of ASL mission conversions for this title. I know that I'm going to convert the scenarios I made for ASL myself as well as some of my own CMBB missions. But until they get the editor properly documented, I'm going to play this, and play this.

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ORIGINAL: Fascist Dog


One final suggestion. Smoke. The chances of placing it are so low that it's unlikely that I'll waste a unit's turn often to try placing it. Perhaps it would be good to create a Smoke Canister SW counter that could be placed with 100% reliability instead? But I guess that's not in the 'real' game.

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ORIGINAL: moet

Let's talk about improving the (board and video) game instead of realism. Why not:

- Make possible a "suppressive fire" order on an unspotted hex to give an eventual enemy there a -2 penalty (or so) to his opportunity fire in the same turn. It feels strange that a MG (even worse in case of a tank!) can't neutralize a building from which could come enemy fire.
- Let any shaken enemy react , with a -2 penalty (or so), to any first melee in its hex. It's hard to believe that no guys will use their weapons against enemies entering their hex.

With this, IMO, players would get all the tools they are used to use in WWII context without altering the character of LnL BoH series. :)

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Perhaps it would be good to create a Smoke Canister SW counter that could be placed with 100% reliability instead? But I guess that's not in the 'real' game.

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ORIGINAL: z1812

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Well, good for you! But did you beat it by applying realistic military tactics such as suppression fire and maneuver, keeping one foot on the ground etc? I was an infantry officer for 10 years and trust me, I NEVER sent a squad forward to draw the enemy's fire and uncover his positions - the surest way to get yourself fragged, by the way. In this game I can't even employ MG fire on possible enemy positions, THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL INFANTRY TACTIC. But there I go again, taking on the Pandora gamers and expecting a sensible conversation about WW2 combat. Happy 'GAMING' LOL

Hence my question about area fire in another post. I enjoy games where, given the limitations of a wargame, real world tactics such as fire and maneuver are rewarded.

This doesn't mean to say it is not a fun game. It doesn't even mean I won't buy it. It does mean I will watch the forum closely to be sure of what I am getting should I decide to buy.

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ORIGINAL: Werewolf1326

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ORIGINAL: z1812

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ORIGINAL:
Well, good for you! But did you beat it by applying realistic military tactics such as suppression fire and maneuver, keeping one foot on the ground etc? I was an infantry officer for 10 years and trust me, I NEVER sent a squad forward to draw the enemy's fire and uncover his positions - the surest way to get yourself fragged, by the way. In this game I can't even employ MG fire on possible enemy positions, THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL INFANTRY TACTIC. But there I go again, taking on the Pandora gamers and expecting a sensible conversation about WW2 combat. Happy 'GAMING' LOL

Hence my question about area fire in another post. I enjoy games where, given the limitations of a wargame, real world tactics such as fire and maneuver are rewarded.

This doesn't mean to say it is not a fun game. It doesn't even mean I won't buy it. It does mean I will watch the forum closely to be sure of what I am getting should I decide to buy.

^^^^
Same camp that I am in...

And I do agree with RedMarkus - having to send a unit out to draw enemy fire in order to spot them is an unnecessarily gamey technique to have to use. Area fire that suppresses enemy units to a lesser degree if not spotted than if spotted is more realistic and IMO a more satisfying tactic.

The beauty of PC gaming is one can dispense with the gamey stuff that was necessary with a board game because now the PC can do all the calculations no one wanted to do with a board game.