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bad day - 2/1/2003 9:49:18 PM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		I was waiting to hear the familiar sonic boom as the shuttle landed this morning about 20 miles from my home. Then my wife told me to come and see what was on TV....

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Jim NSB
Post #: 1
- 2/1/2003 10:22:17 PM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		:(


Goblin

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Post #: 2
- 2/1/2003 10:28:57 PM   
Don Doom


Posts: 2446
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Lost somewhere in the upper backwoods of Michigan!
Status: offline 		:( :( :( :( :( :( :(

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Doom
Vet of the Russian General Winter
For death is only the begining

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Post #: 3
- 2/1/2003 10:44:18 PM   
Jim1954

 

Posts: 1393
Joined: 5/15/2002
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		My wife heard the "boom" this morning around 8a cst.

:( :( :( :(

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Post #: 4
- 2/1/2003 10:49:47 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		:( :( :(

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Post #: 5
Not What You Want to Wake Up To... - 2/1/2003 10:56:07 PM   
Orzel Bialy


Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline 		a sad day for our nation indeed. Our Prayers and condolences to the crews families.

:( :( :( :( :(

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Post #: 6
Re: Not What You Want to Wake Up To... - 2/1/2003 11:15:56 PM   
BryanMelvin

 

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline 		Very sad day indeed

:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

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MarauderMel

http://www.wargamer.com/hosted/Steelpanthers/index.asp

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Post #: 7
- 2/2/2003 3:34:39 AM   
M4Jess


Posts: 5140
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: DC
Status: offline 		:( :( :( :( :(
:( :( :( :( :(

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Im making war, not trouble~


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Post #: 8
- 2/2/2003 3:40:57 AM   
Hades

 

Posts: 565
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: Texas
Status: offline 		:( Yeah not a good day.

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"History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave."
-Edmund Morris


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Post #: 9
Stunned - 2/2/2003 4:31:13 AM   
Bernie


Posts: 1779
Joined: 3/15/2002
From: Depot HQ - Virginia
Status: offline 		I'm simply stunned... This forum thread was the first I heard of this disaster. :(

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What, me worry?

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Post #: 10
- 2/2/2003 4:44:34 AM   
chief


Posts: 1660
Joined: 9/28/2000
From: Haines City FL, USA
Status: offline 		It takes very brave men and women to be astronauts, may their next assignment be easier.

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"God Bless America and All the Young men and women who give their all to protect Her"....chief

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Post #: 11
consider this - 2/2/2003 5:12:42 AM   
BORO

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Rochester, Wa.
Status: offline 		Yes indeed a bad day for us. But, how about the first astronaut from Israel being on board, now not only the first up in space but the first to give his life in space for his country.:( :(

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"Gentleman, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke to his staff

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Post #: 12
- 2/2/2003 6:07:21 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		ummm :( [I]speechless[/I]

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- Stonewall Jackson

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Post #: 13
- 2/2/2003 6:30:25 AM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		It hits just way too close to home. My pharmacy's literally across the river from launch pads 39A and 39B, which the shuttles take off from...a large part of the local economy is tied to KSC. :(

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Jim NSB

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Post #: 14
- 2/2/2003 7:03:51 AM   
Huffy


Posts: 497
Joined: 7/6/2000
From: ,USA
Status: offline 		sad day indeed....thoughts and prayers are with the astronauts and the families.
Huffy

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Post #: 15
- 2/2/2003 8:15:29 AM   
Don Doom


Posts: 2446
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Lost somewhere in the upper backwoods of Michigan!
Status: offline 		It is too early to tell but it is and has been reported the following:


[QUOTE]In Hemphill, near the Louisiana line, hospital employee Mike Gibbs reported finding what appeared to be a charred torso, thigh bone and skull on a rural road near what was believed to be other debris. Billy Smith, a Texas Department of Public Safety spokesman, confirmed the find. He said authorities had roped off the area and were collecting evidence.[/QUOTE]
:(:(

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Doom
Vet of the Russian General Winter
For death is only the begining

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Post #: 16
- 2/2/2003 8:34:35 AM   
M4Jess


Posts: 5140
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: DC
Status: offline 		Again.............


:( :( :( :( :(
:( :( :( :( :(

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Im making war, not trouble~


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Post #: 17
- 2/2/2003 2:18:48 PM   
CPT Shoe


Posts: 203
Joined: 2/13/2001
From: Fayetteville, NC, USA
Status: offline 		:(

Taps rings loud and clear for the brave explorers of the last frontier. My thoughts are with the families.

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People like me should scare the hell out of you. Why? Because I can get inside your head. And once there, I run around like a squirrel through a habiTrail, flipping the switches that can make you do everything from craving a Pepsi to voting Republican.

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Post #: 18
- 2/2/2003 10:48:34 PM   
Figmo

 

Posts: 556
Joined: 5/28/2000
From: Pennsylvania, USA
Status: offline 		Very sad!!

It is way too early but it could be the pieces that fell off when they took off may have something to do with it.

Does anybody know how carefully they checked that before coming back in?

Figmo
:( :( :( :(

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Post #: 19
- 2/2/2003 11:43:36 PM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		As I understand, they didn't. A spacewalk was not permitted, or not asked for, not sure which.

I suspect that it was the cause of it, but we shall have to see.

Goblin


-NASA 1992 Budget $15 Billion
-NASA 2002 Budget $15 Billion (Needed $19 Billion just to stay even with inflation)

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Post #: 20
- 2/3/2003 12:20:10 AM   
Orzel Bialy


Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline 		Here's what the AP has reported as far as the damage and what was known about it and what could have been done about it....unfortunately the answer was: nothing. :(

"Dittemore said that even if the astronauts had gone out on an emergency spacewalk, there was no way a spacewalker could have safely checked under the wings, which bear the brunt of re-entry heat.

The shuttle was not equipped with its 50-foot robot arm because it was not needed during this research mission, and so the astronauts did not have the option of using the arm's cameras to get a look at the damage.

And even if they did find damage, ``there's nothing that we can do about tile damage once we get to orbit,'' Dittemore said. ``We can't minimize the heating to the point that it would somehow not require a tile.'' "

As reported by Marcia Dunn
Copyright 2003 The Associated Press

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Post #: 21
- 2/3/2003 2:02:55 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		Yes, several points... SAFELY?!? We could not safely have an astronaut spacewalk... OMG. Yeah, much better this way.

Let them spacewalk, see the damage, and then go from there. Rope the walker with bed sheets or something.

Goblin

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Post #: 22
- 2/3/2003 2:16:12 AM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		It's easy to be wise with the facts at hand....

But I suppose they could've thrown a guy outside and make him look; even if rushed to the extreme, would it have been possible to launch a rescue shuttle? (It normally takes a YEAR or so to prepare one for mission) Possibly with repair tiles as well?

I bet the Russians would have found out a way, using a sledgehammer and some duct tape strapped to a rocket booster. ;) I mean, they could fix and run the MIR beyond all safety limits...

Now, that said we don't know yet if it was in fact damaged tiles that caused this tragedy. :rolleyes:

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Post #: 23
- 2/3/2003 2:39:10 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		I'm no expert, but I will wager someone could have tried something had they found the damage. Maybe they might have been able to link up with the space station. Even if not, they would have at least been able to say goodbye to their families before making the attempt.

Goblin

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Post #: 24
- 2/3/2003 3:56:12 AM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		About those tiles...I think there must've been rather considerable damage. If my memory serves me right, during the very first shuttle flight there was quite a lot of concern about whether the tiles will stay put or drop away...and I just checked and during STS-1 they lost _16_ tiles and 148 were damaged.

So obviously a loss of few tiles wasn't a problem back then and shouldn't been now. Of course some locations are more critical than others.

As for repairing those tiles. They are such high-precision jobs I seriously doubt there is any way to scrape off a damaged tile in space and replace it with new one, and do it well. however, I recall seeing (from some shuttle related science program) astronauts training to use stuff called Nomex??. It was red stuff sprayed from small containers and it was supposed to be used for patching holes left by missing/damaged tiles. I wonder what happened to that training/chemical. Was it ignored when they saw that couple tiles won't matter?

Voriax

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Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

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Post #: 25
- 2/3/2003 5:20:23 AM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		[I]If[/I] launch damage was to blame, count on the space program to learn from this and move forward...don't be surprised to see cans of NASA's version of Fix-a-Flat on future flights (at $1400 a pop) :)

For all its resilience and strength, the shuttle is still a fragile vehicle. The workers out at the Cape refer to it as a 'butterfly on a bullet'.

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Jim NSB

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Post #: 26
- 2/3/2003 9:52:33 AM   
Bernie


Posts: 1779
Joined: 3/15/2002
From: Depot HQ - Virginia
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by tracer
[B][I]If[/I] launch damage was to blame, count on the space program to learn from this and move forward...don't be surprised to see cans of NASA's version of Fix-a-Flat on future flights (at $1400 a pop) :)

For all its resilience and strength, the shuttle is still a fragile vehicle. The workers out at the Cape refer to it as a 'butterfly on a bullet'. [/B][/QUOTE]

I find it dumbfounding to believe that NASA has never had a contingency plan for repairing a damaged shuttle in orbit. We knew from the start that the only thing keeping a shuttle safe during re-entry was the tiles. We worried from the start what would happen if some were lost or damaged. They're telling us now that in the [I]two decades[/I] the shuttles have been flying we still haven't come up with something better than "leave it up there" and send another shuttle to rescue the crew? And they got this by congress?? Yeah, I can hear [I]that[/I] congressional budget meeting... "You mean to tell me, Mr. Director, that if a damaged shuttle, from a meteorite, launch damage, junk debris, whatever, is up in orbit, we can't fix it, or get it back? And these shuttles cost HOW much each?" "Well Senator, we just don't have the capacity to fix something like that in space." "Mr. Director, you will develop and demonstrate a system to do just that, or you will not get another nickle of funding on this project! Meeting adjourned!"

Sheesh! How about a couple of blocks of ceramic based epoxy for a start? Sure, it may not be perfect, but it has to be better than nothing. We're talking about what, 2,000 degrees? I can think of a couple off-the-shelf products that can handle those temps. And for another matter, NASA has long been concerned that if one tile came off the air hitting the exposed edge of the next tile in line might peel it off, and the next, and the next. Well, why not bevel the leading and trailing edges and overlap them? Like a snake's scales?

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What, me worry?

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Post #: 27
- 2/3/2003 12:10:29 PM   
rlc27

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 7/21/2001
From: Connecticut, USA
Status: offline 		I think it's time we dispense with the whole space shuttle concept as is, and design a new spacecraft using all of the technology and materials designed during the past 20+ years. The basic shuttle design dates to 1977! To still be using that in 2003 is like pasting a tie fighter from Star Wars A New Hope into Attack of the Clones. While the shuttles have been refurbished and upgraded with new electronics, there must be better materials available that will make the craft more durable and able to deal with contingencies. Let alone new propulsion systems that will allow the shuttle to be more versatile in its functions--orbiting, and reorbiting, from the upper atmostphere,and perhaps with the ability to leave orbit altogether. Carl Sagan suggested that we had the tech to build this kind of ship years ago, so why haven't we done it? Even the SR-71 could skim the edge of the atmosphere, and that was in the 60's. And it takes less energy to take off and ascend at an angle than it does to blast off straight into space, but we're just sooo attached to rockets and boosters, even though they are far more dangerous than "old fashion" ramjets and high-lift airfoils.

If the "broken foam insulation" theory turns out to be true, then both lost shuttles will have been the victim of minor malfunctions during liftoff, both of which led to major disasters--the POS Morton Thiokol O-ring on Challenger, and a falling piece of Pink Panther on Columbia.

It is interesting to note that the temperature rise was inside the landing gear bay at first. Since it appears that losing a few tiles doesn't do too much, how about if a bay door was left partly open or didn't seal correctly? Impossible to tell, I know, but it seems just as likely as the missing tile theory--I recall that they had to replace some of them after every single flight.

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"They couldn't hit an elephant from this dist--"

--John Sedgwick, failing to reduce suppression during the Battle of the Wilderness, U.S. Civil War.

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Post #: 28
- 2/3/2003 12:13:26 PM   
rlc27

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 7/21/2001
From: Connecticut, USA
Status: offline 		oh and PS, Goblin, I like your new avatar, but miss the old one.

Did you ever see a book by, I think it was Brian Froud, that was made as a complement to the movie "Labyrinth?" It is all about Goblins.

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"They couldn't hit an elephant from this dist--"

--John Sedgwick, failing to reduce suppression during the Battle of the Wilderness, U.S. Civil War.

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Post #: 29
- 2/3/2003 1:35:24 PM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		No, haven't seen it. Fear not! I will change my avatar yet again! Right now though, the Hiss Squad and I are kicking Jess butt.:rolleyes:

Goblin

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Post #: 30
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