Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: obvert

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ORIGINAL: Icedawg

From what I've read, the people of Crimea want to leave the Ukraine and join Russia. Solution - let them. Self-determination and all that stuff.

Think of it his way. Suppose that Maine wanted to leave the US and join Canada. As long as the Canadians are willing to take them, they should be allowed to go. No need for military action. Just a simple vote by the people involved. Isn't that the whole principle behind democracy?

Think of it this way. What if Texas wanted to become a republic again, go it alone? Do you think the US would allow that? With the resources, positioning and size of Texas?

Could the Ukraine exist economically without the Crimea? I don't know, but that area is both strategically and economically important to it, and the area that they're showing on the news that's more Russian speaking and aligned politically with Russia is about 1/3 or more of the country, not just Crimea. Pretty tough to just let that go for the Ukraine.

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ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Here's a question more in keeping with the nature of the forum , strategy versus politics. IF NATO , or the USA , or the western powers DID agree to oppose this action by Russia, short of a nuclear strike , what could they do?

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ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

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ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Here's a question more in keeping with the nature of the forum , strategy versus politics. IF NATO , or the USA , or the western powers DID agree to oppose this action by Russia, short of a nuclear strike , what could they do?

A fair amount, but it would take backbone and will ... both of which are in short supply.

If Maggie was still around do you think Putin would have every even considered this gambit?

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ORIGINAL: obvert

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ORIGINAL: Icedawg

From what I've read, the people of Crimea want to leave the Ukraine and join Russia. Solution - let them. Self-determination and all that stuff.

Think of it his way. Suppose that Maine wanted to leave the US and join Canada. As long as the Canadians are willing to take them, they should be allowed to go. No need for military action. Just a simple vote by the people involved. Isn't that the whole principle behind democracy?

Think of it this way. What if Texas wanted to become a republic again, go it alone? Do you think the US would allow that? With the resources, positioning and size of Texas?

Could the Ukraine exist economically without the Crimea? I don't know, but that area is both strategically and economically important to it, and the area that they're showing on the news that's more Russian speaking and aligned politically with Russia is about 1/3 or more of the country, not just Crimea. Pretty tough to just let that go for the Ukraine.

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ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well, I will not take sides on this nor am I saying any of it is right as far as Russia goes. However, I remind everyone here of the Monroe Doctrine and US policy about intervention with our immediate neighbors. I am not happy about the course that Russia is steering but to say that they have no right to be concerned about a bordering country with a large ethnic Russian population is just naive. The US has taken military, political and economic action to pressure neighboring countries to reflect out interests and protect our citizens. This includes direct military interventions in Cuba,Nicaragua,Panama,Grenada,Haiti,Mexico,Costa Rica,El Salvador and others, and we have helped engineer political coups in many other countries. I am not saying that this policy is right or wrong. Sometimes it has been justified-sometimes not. But what I am saying is that the Ukraine is definitely in the Russian sphere of influence, and although we can get mad and blow a lot of hot air, save for going to war, there is very little we (the US) can do in this region. Russia has been many times the brute in this region but the face of Ukrainian nationalism has been very ugly at times. Lots of Jews and Poles can attest to that.

I think it is time to take a step back and look at the whole situation rather than be so hasty with our opinions. The history of this area is complex and tragic. Don't allow yourself to be fooled by the media. This situation has a lot more to do with a serious and dangerous ethnic conflict than it has to do with a fight to embrace democracy.

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ORIGINAL: MrKane

BTW: Does anyone notice that Putin is coping exactly scenario used by Adolf Hitler in 1938/39 to take over Czechoslovak ?
- Phase one: He sent saboteurs & troops wearing uniforms without marking to simulate riot in place.
- Phase two: He has used a few unhappy Ukraine politics(with Russian citizenship) to cry that Russian citizen are suffer from very bad Ukrainian's nationalists.
- Phase three: He has sent military forces to invade Crimea to protect Russian citizens.
- Phase four: Western Europe & USA will do nothing, nobody in EU and USA want to die for Crimea.
- Phase five: (I really hope we will not see it) He will takeover remnant parts of demoralized country without any resistant after a few months.

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ORIGINAL: offenseman

This is very unsettling to me. I sense great evil coming and fear danger is around the corner for more than just the people of Ukraine. No facts to back it up of course, but something just feels terribly wrong about this series of events and the players involved.

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Does the politics rule not apply here?

What's it to you?

warspite1

What a surprise Typical response from you - mind you I expected nothing else.

On the General Discussion forum political threads - and yes someone tried to start one on this very subject a few days ago - are stamped on and locked. What makes you think you are so special?

Of course its do as I say, not as I do, with the likes of you.

I read that thread. It looked nothing like this one. The one political post here has been ignored. This thread is about economics and military strategy. It could go political, but it hasn't. We AE players are, for the most part, much more mature than that howling bunch of yokels in the general forum.

For that matter, it's a long, loooooong time since you made a post about AE. Why do you hang out here so much? Is it to see a game with both an AI and PBEM, which works, which doesn't cost $200 and was shipped broken, and which was put together by a dev team with utter professionalism?

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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What out 1956 (Hungry) and 1968 (Prague spring)? Does anyone else see similarities?

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ORIGINAL: rustysi

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ORIGINAL: MrKane

BTW: Does anyone notice that Putin is coping exactly scenario used by Adolf Hitler in 1938/39 to take over Czechoslovak ?
- Phase one: He sent saboteurs & troops wearing uniforms without marking to simulate riot in place.
- Phase two: He has used a few unhappy Ukraine politics(with Russian citizenship) to cry that Russian citizen are suffer from very bad Ukrainian's nationalists.
- Phase three: He has sent military forces to invade Crimea to protect Russian citizens.
- Phase four: Western Europe & USA will do nothing, nobody in EU and USA want to die for Crimea.
- Phase five: (I really hope we will not see it) He will takeover remnant parts of demoralized country without any resistant after a few months.

Maybe, and then I start to think...
Manchuria '31
Ethiopia '35
Austria '38
Albania '39
So, if the above (quoted) scenario turns out to be true can we afford to do nothing? OTOH can we afford to do something?

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ORIGINAL: General Patton

Question is, what will the rest of the world do? will they sit on there hands or do something? I think the new government will need to ask for some kind of help. but what kind?
GP

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ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well, I will not take sides on this nor am I saying any of it is right as far as Russia goes. However, I remind everyone here of the Monroe Doctrine and US policy about intervention with our immediate neighbors. I am not happy about the course that Russia is steering but to say that they have no right to be concerned about a bordering country with a large ethnic Russian population is just naive. The US has taken military, political and economic action to pressure neighboring countries to reflect out interests and protect our citizens. This includes direct military interventions in Cuba,Nicaragua,Panama,Grenada,Haiti,Mexico,Costa Rica,El Salvador and others, and we have helped engineer political coups in many other countries. I am not saying that this policy is right or wrong. Sometimes it has been justified-sometimes not. But what I am saying is that the Ukraine is definitely in the Russian sphere of influence, and although we can get mad and blow a lot of hot air, save for going to war, there is very little we (the US) can do in this region. Russia has been many times the brute in this region but the face of Ukrainian nationalism has been very ugly at times. Lots of Jews and Poles can attest to that.

I think it is time to take a step back and look at the whole situation rather than be so hasty with our opinions. The history of this area is complex and tragic. Don't allow yourself to be fooled by the media. This situation has a lot more to do with a serious and dangerous ethnic conflict than it has to do with a fight to embrace democracy.

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ORIGINAL: Icedawg

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ORIGINAL: obvert

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ORIGINAL: Icedawg

From what I've read, the people of Crimea want to leave the Ukraine and join Russia. Solution - let them. Self-determination and all that stuff.

Think of it his way. Suppose that Maine wanted to leave the US and join Canada. As long as the Canadians are willing to take them, they should be allowed to go. No need for military action. Just a simple vote by the people involved. Isn't that the whole principle behind democracy?

Think of it this way. What if Texas wanted to become a republic again, go it alone? Do you think the US would allow that? With the resources, positioning and size of Texas?

Could the Ukraine exist economically without the Crimea? I don't know, but that area is both strategically and economically important to it, and the area that they're showing on the news that's more Russian speaking and aligned politically with Russia is about 1/3 or more of the country, not just Crimea. Pretty tough to just let that go for the Ukraine.

I'd say if the Texans want to separate, then they should be allowed to do so. I've never met a separatist movement I would not support. I guess that's because my country was founded on a separatist movement. Americans would have to be complete hypocrites to not be supportive of people trying to free themselves from governments they don't accept.

As an Englishman though, I bet you see things a bit differently. For a couple hundred years or so, your nation fought freedom movements tooth and nail (and it looks like you've got another one in the works with the Scots at it again).

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Icedawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

From what I've read, the people of Crimea want to leave the Ukraine and join Russia. Solution - let them. Self-determination and all that stuff.

Think of it his way. Suppose that Maine wanted to leave the US and join Canada. As long as the Canadians are willing to take them, they should be allowed to go. No need for military action. Just a simple vote by the people involved. Isn't that the whole principle behind democracy?

Think of it this way. What if Texas wanted to become a republic again, go it alone? Do you think the US would allow that? With the resources, positioning and size of Texas?

Could the Ukraine exist economically without the Crimea? I don't know, but that area is both strategically and economically important to it, and the area that they're showing on the news that's more Russian speaking and aligned politically with Russia is about 1/3 or more of the country, not just Crimea. Pretty tough to just let that go for the Ukraine.

I'd say if the Texans want to separate, then they should be allowed to do so. I've never met a separatist movement I would not support. I guess that's because my country was founded on a separatist movement. Americans would have to be complete hypocrites to not be supportive of people trying to free themselves from governments they don't accept.

As an Englishman though, I bet you see things a bit differently. For a couple hundred years or so, your nation fought freedom movements tooth and nail (and it looks like you've got another one in the works with the Scots at it again).

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: LoBaron

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ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well, I will not take sides on this nor am I saying any of it is right as far as Russia goes. However, I remind everyone here of the Monroe Doctrine and US policy about intervention with our immediate neighbors. I am not happy about the course that Russia is steering but to say that they have no right to be concerned about a bordering country with a large ethnic Russian population is just naive. The US has taken military, political and economic action to pressure neighboring countries to reflect out interests and protect our citizens. This includes direct military interventions in Cuba,Nicaragua,Panama,Grenada,Haiti,Mexico,Costa Rica,El Salvador and others, and we have helped engineer political coups in many other countries. I am not saying that this policy is right or wrong. Sometimes it has been justified-sometimes not. But what I am saying is that the Ukraine is definitely in the Russian sphere of influence, and although we can get mad and blow a lot of hot air, save for going to war, there is very little we (the US) can do in this region. Russia has been many times the brute in this region but the face of Ukrainian nationalism has been very ugly at times. Lots of Jews and Poles can attest to that.

I think it is time to take a step back and look at the whole situation rather than be so hasty with our opinions. The history of this area is complex and tragic. Don't allow yourself to be fooled by the media. This situation has a lot more to do with a serious and dangerous ethnic conflict than it has to do with a fight to embrace democracy.

Very thoughful post crsutton!



In general I do recommend to stop any WWII or cold war comparisions here. None apply, noone benefits from such posts, and it is the best way to get an interesting thread closed. Thanks.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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But I think the idea that any US government would allow Texas (or any state) to walk away from the United States is fanciful. Isn't there a precedent for what would happen if anyone tried?

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ORIGINAL: JocMeister

For those interested I had a good chat over IRC last night with an old BF42 friend. He is Russian currently living somewhere outside Moscow. He said that the Russian population see the situation in a bit of a different light than the west does and that this view is enhanced by the media coverage in Russia.

Basically what the media (and to a large extent the public opinion) says is that the Ukrainian Prime minister Janukovyt was democratically elected. He was then overthrown in a coup and Russia should help restore him to power as the democratically elected leader. Crimea has not "broken free" of Ukraine but rather denounced the leaders of the coup and the "new Ukrainian government".

He also said that the Russian view of the "West" and USA in particular is that they are all a bunch of hypocrites that will let anything slide as long as its in their interest to let it do so. But if something goes against their interest they will immediately start banging the "drums of democracy". This is just the words of one guy but he is decent fellow and I known him for 10 years or so. Well educated and with a good job. He is not very interested in politics and doesn´t care very much. So I believe he was just sharing what the Russian people in general feel about the situation.

Always interesting to hear the other side of the fence.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: warspite1