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question concerning naval transport - 2/27/2014 9:42:15 PM   
HeroFromBavaria


Posts: 11
Joined: 12/29/2009
Status: offline 		Hello to all rules expert out there! RAC for naval transport (11.4.5.) states that any cargo on a TRS will be unloaded at the end of its naval move if the TRS ends its move in a port. Let's say, an Russian army is being ferried by a TRS from Tallin to Hanko in a Combined action. MWiF prevents this Army from moving later in the same impulse (e.g. entering an empty Helsinki) . Why? (It doesnt't count as one of the precious land moves as it's not disembarking under the rules of 11.13 - OK. But what rule prohibits any further movement?)
Post #: 1
RE: question concerning naval transport - 2/27/2014 9:57:42 PM   
joshuamnave

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 1/8/2014
Status: offline 		None that I'm aware of, although I'm not a rules expert. I noticed this earlier today as well and believe it to be a new bug introduced in the latest patch. I didn't mention it because it's incredibly trivial compared to the bug that doesn't let you move any units at all.

(in reply to HeroFromBavaria)
Post #: 2
RE: question concerning naval transport - 2/28/2014 6:12:05 AM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline 		are the land unit disrupted ???

are the USSR at war with Finland ???

< Message edited by michaelbaldur -- 2/28/2014 7:15:04 AM >

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I work hard, not smart.

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if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to joshuamnave)
Post #: 3
RE: question concerning naval transport - 2/28/2014 7:43:00 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

are the land unit disrupted ???

are the USSR at war with Finland ???


And can the unit invade (not all units can invade an enemy hex)?

If all those answers are "Yes", please put a saved game in here. Can you zip it and upload it in here?

< Message edited by Centuur -- 2/28/2014 8:45:15 PM >

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Peter

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Post #: 4
RE: question concerning naval transport - 2/28/2014 7:59:33 PM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline
as I read it it end the move in hanko, so it must be a Russian hex

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 5
RE: question concerning naval transport - 2/28/2014 8:04:18 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline 		I've got it. If you move a loaded TRS directly into a port, it and the unit on it is disorganised. That's the rules.

If you disembark a unit from a TRS at sea during the disembarkment phase (which happens after land movement, so no further movement is allowed that impulse), you are allowed to move further in the next impulse because the unit disembarking isn't disorganised at that point.

< Message edited by Centuur -- 2/28/2014 9:06:24 PM >

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Post #: 6
RE: question concerning naval transport - 2/28/2014 8:40:17 PM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I've got it. If you move a loaded TRS directly into a port, it and the unit on it is disorganised. That's the rules.

If you disembark a unit from a TRS at sea during the disembarkment phase (which happens after land movement, so no further movement is allowed that impulse), you are allowed to move further in the next impulse because the unit disembarking isn't disorganised at that point.


nope you are wrong, if you move directly from port to port, the cargo debark organized

< Message edited by michaelbaldur -- 2/28/2014 9:41:59 PM >

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 7
RE: question concerning naval transport - 2/28/2014 8:42:48 PM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline
it is very important, that you post all information, when posting bug reports

< Message edited by michaelbaldur -- 2/28/2014 9:43:47 PM >

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 8
RE: question concerning naval transport - 2/28/2014 10:42:11 PM   
joshuamnave

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 1/8/2014
Status: offline 		As I mentioned above, I've seen this in the latest patch as well. Moving port to port, the cargo stays organized but says that it has already moved this turn and thus, can't be moved again from its final port. I don't have a save file at the moment but if I play any this weekend I'll try to watch for it.

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 9
RE: question concerning naval transport - 3/1/2014 11:20:04 AM   
AxelNL


Posts: 2386
Joined: 9/24/2011
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

As I mentioned above, I've seen this in the latest patch as well. Moving port to port, the cargo stays organized but says that it has already moved this turn and thus, can't be moved again from its final port. I don't have a save file at the moment but if I play any this weekend I'll try to watch for it.


I just navalmoved a French Corps from the Levant to Marseille (port to port) in a brand new GW scenario in Beta release 1.1.5.1, and it can be railed and moved away in the same combined impulse. I will let it stay in Marseille to try it out in the next impulse, but if this was a bug, the supply code must have an influence here - as that is the only thing Steve touched in this Beta. Are we sure it was not caused by something else? Was it already disorganizes or maybe it started at sea while you thought it started in a port? In the Hanko case - is there a war with Finland? Hanko normally becomes Russian after declaring peace. When Barbarossa starts, Hanko is the first Russian hex I will take back with the Finnish.
Zartacla - when you see this again, can you post a screenshot of the message, please. I have never seen such a message. In your case I would think it can be only supply related.
HeroOfBavaria - my peers react a bit stressy as we had a stressy week after the 1.1.5 release. Normally we are much more gentle.
We need a bit more info on this one to be able to help.

(in reply to joshuamnave)
Post #: 10
RE: question concerning naval transport - 3/5/2014 10:03:42 PM   
HeroFromBavaria


Posts: 11
Joined: 12/29/2009
Status: offline 		Fellow wargamers, thank You for Your replies! I'm sorry for not being more specific in the first place

I picked my example with a move from any Baltic port to a (still) Russian controlled Hanko as this might be sensible if the German player was careless and didn't take control of it in the impulse after aligning Finland.

Here's an screenshot after embarking. After loading the land unit, it is marked as partially moved:





Attachment (1)

(in reply to AxelNL)
Post #: 11
RE: question concerning naval transport - 3/5/2014 10:24:19 PM   
HeroFromBavaria


Posts: 11
Joined: 12/29/2009
Status: offline 		Now, when the TRS somehow gets by the Kriegsmarine, the land unit is flagged as "Done movement". I couldn't find anything in the RAC (especially in section 11.4.5) that would prohibit the land unit from moving in the same impulse in the land movement phase.

Let me add that I'm still adopting to MWiF and FE, so I hope I'm not just wasting Your time. I used to play up until 5th Edition. 10-sided dice in WiF - amazing...

Cheers









Attachment (1)

(in reply to HeroFromBavaria)
Post #: 12
RE: question concerning naval transport - 3/6/2014 7:50:39 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline 		I think this is correct, since this is movement which took place in the naval movement phase. So during the naval movement phase, the CAV has moved and it gets "done movement" during that game phase.

If you now proceed further in the sequence of play, you will arrive in the land movement phase later. At that point, you should be able to move the CAV, since it than again should become "available to move". If not, there is something wrong (but I doubt it to be wrong, since I tested a similar situation and it seems to be OK).

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Peter

(in reply to HeroFromBavaria)
Post #: 13
RE: question concerning naval transport - 3/8/2014 8:27:32 PM   
HeroFromBavaria


Posts: 11
Joined: 12/29/2009
Status: offline 		Peter, I really appreciate You taking the time looking into this issue!

No, the CAV doesn't become available available during the land movement phase later on:






Attachment (1)

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 14
RE: question concerning naval transport - 3/8/2014 9:04:28 PM   
HeroFromBavaria


Posts: 11
Joined: 12/29/2009
Status: offline 		I've setup a game for You to specifically show this behaviour. What I've been able to see so far: The land unit is "stuck" if the non-phasing side could have intercepted the TRS during its move.

In my example, Germany has taken a Combined action. If ships move into the Baltic sea, any cargo ferried from Leningrad to Hanko by the Soviets can't move later in the same impulse. If the seas are clear, a land unit is able to move just as You described after having been transported.

But maybe it's still me who isn't using the UI correctly When there are no German ships in the Baltic sea, I can target Hanko directly as the intended destination of the Soviet TRS. If Germany could intercept, I can't select Hanko directly but have to position the TRS in the sea box and then continue moving.

Hope this helps. Cheers, Olaf







Attachment (1)

(in reply to HeroFromBavaria)
Post #: 15
RE: question concerning naval transport - 3/8/2014 9:45:21 PM   
AxelNL


Posts: 2386
Joined: 9/24/2011
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HeroOfBavaria

I've setup a game for You to specifically show this behaviour. What I've been able to see so far: The land unit is "stuck" if the non-phasing side could have intercepted the TRS during its move.

In my example, Germany has taken a Combined action. If ships move into the Baltic sea, any cargo ferried from Leningrad to Hanko by the Soviets can't move later in the same impulse. If the seas are clear, a land unit is able to move just as You described after having been transported.

But maybe it's still me who isn't using the UI correctly When there are no German ships in the Baltic sea, I can target Hanko directly as the intended destination of the Soviet TRS. If Germany could intercept, I can't select Hanko directly but have to position the TRS in the sea box and then continue moving.

Hope this helps. Cheers, Olaf



I can't unzip it without a password and keyfile.

Will have a look tomorrow if you can post a unlocked version.

(in reply to HeroFromBavaria)
Post #: 16
RE: question concerning naval transport - 3/9/2014 4:03:53 PM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HeroOfBavaria

When there are no German ships in the Baltic sea, I can target Hanko directly as the intended destination of the Soviet TRS. If Germany could intercept, I can't select Hanko directly but have to position the TRS in the sea box and then continue moving.

Hope this helps. Cheers, Olaf



I think that may be the issue. If you move directly the game handles it correctly. If you 'drop' the stack anywhere else, the game assumes it has 'moved' so it cannot move again. It seems like this is the way it should work, but whether that is correct or not I have no clue

If you are moving a naval stack that can be intercepted, use ctrl (or shift can't remember which) click on the target location and the program will let you move diredtly to the port. Then I think your land unit should be able to move. If it still does not, then that is a bug imho



< Message edited by Numdydar -- 3/9/2014 5:04:23 PM >

(in reply to HeroFromBavaria)
Post #: 17
RE: question concerning naval transport - 3/9/2014 10:59:42 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Yes CTRL-click tells MWiF definitively you want to move to a specific sea zone. Otherwise MWiF tries to avoid confronting units that might intercept your naval move.

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Post #: 18
RE: question concerning naval transport - 3/13/2014 9:22:42 PM   
HeroFromBavaria


Posts: 11
Joined: 12/29/2009
Status: offline 		Sorry guys! I've attached a new version of the prepared example. Hope this works now...

I've been pressing CRTL, Shift, ALT and so on, but I'm not able to directly select a friendly port. The "bullseye" cursor is crossed and the tab tells me an interception is possible. I would greatly appreciate it if somebody could tell me what to do to get the transport with its load from Leningrad to any other friendly port

Cheers

Attachment (1)

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 19
RE: question concerning naval transport - 3/13/2014 9:43:33 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline 		There is a German ship at sea in the Baltic. This means you can't move directly from Leningrad to another port.

German ships can search and may find the USSR ships. You first have to move into the Baltic Sea (use ctrl left click to move the USSR fleet into the Baltic) and allow for a German search roll to take place (if Germany wants to intercept the USSR). If interception succeeds, naval combat may occur. If it fails, you can continue to move into a USSR controlled port...



< Message edited by Centuur -- 3/13/2014 10:44:18 PM >

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Post #: 20
RE: question concerning naval transport - 3/13/2014 11:14:39 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		And you can set the die roll to a high enough number so that the interception fails - for testing.

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Post #: 21
RE: question concerning naval transport - 3/16/2014 8:37:13 AM   
HeroFromBavaria


Posts: 11
Joined: 12/29/2009
Status: offline 		Peter, Paul, I'm lost

So, when I move a Soviet transport into the Baltic sea box, succeed in avoiding an interception and move on to a friendly port - how am I'm able to move its load in the land movement phase afterwards? The status remains "moved" when I move via the Sea Box. What clicks to I have to perform for a port-to-port movement in order to continue moving with any units transported later in the turn?

Thx, Olaf

(in reply to HeroFromBavaria)
Post #: 22
RE: question concerning naval transport - 3/16/2014 11:05:47 AM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline 		Peter and Paul, now that's something...

But this is a strange thing, because the CAV should become selectable, but it doesn't become selectable in the land movement phase. So there is a bug here.



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Post #: 23
RE: question concerning naval transport - 3/16/2014 7:55:19 PM   
AxelNL


Posts: 2386
Joined: 9/24/2011
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Peter and Paul, now that's something...

But this is a strange thing, because the CAV should become selectable, but it doesn't become selectable in the land movement phase. So there is a bug here.




When selecting a unit to be transported the game is vulnerable to mistakes in the selection process. It works fine when no "mouse missers" or selecting/deselecting is done in the loading form. If these are made there could be strange results, and perhaps this is one of them.

Try doing the loading again, with only the minimum mouse clicks necessary. That's the only thing I can think off.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 24
RE: question concerning naval transport - 3/16/2014 8:12:35 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HeroOfBavaria

Peter, Paul, I'm lost

So, when I move a Soviet transport into the Baltic sea box, succeed in avoiding an interception and move on to a friendly port - how am I'm able to move its load in the land movement phase afterwards? The status remains "moved" when I move via the Sea Box. What clicks to I have to perform for a port-to-port movement in order to continue moving with any units transported later in the turn?

Thx, Olaf

I've added this to task list to investigate.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 25
RE: question concerning naval transport - 3/17/2014 4:44:17 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AxelNL


quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Peter and Paul, now that's something...

But this is a strange thing, because the CAV should become selectable, but it doesn't become selectable in the land movement phase. So there is a bug here.




When selecting a unit to be transported the game is vulnerable to mistakes in the selection process. It works fine when no "mouse missers" or selecting/deselecting is done in the loading form. If these are made there could be strange results, and perhaps this is one of them.

Try doing the loading again, with only the minimum mouse clicks necessary. That's the only thing I can think off.


I did do so, no effect. I've even tried saving and restoring the game just before land movement... No solution...

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Peter

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Post #: 26
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