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This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/14/2014 2:57:16 AM   
jkantor


Posts: 4
Joined: 1/4/2002
Status: offline 		From another thread:
quote:

I want to be able to fire and maneuvre, to make frontal attack, to move by envelopment, by turning movement, by infiltration, by deception, etc.


And that's the main problem with this computer game (not the system) - it doesn't let you do that to any meaningful extent. Historical games are not FPS games or RTS games - where scenarios are fixed puzzles that you play over and over again in order to first, find a way to win, and second, get a higher score. I like those kind of games sometimes, but I don't want an historical game to try to be something it's not.

I've had a number of LnL titles for years and due to lack of time, space, and opponents, never had a chance to do much with them - so I thought the pc game would be a great idea. And it almost is. The system translates incredibly well and the computer takes out all the drudgery. But it's programmed as if it's another type of game: some of the scenarios are just plain stupid - and there's no reason I shouldn't have control over almost everything: from OOBs to Turn Limits to Spotting to Hero Generation.

I would rarely want to play a scenario twice as written - but I really do want the option to change it easily. Even if I had time to figure out the cliche badly written scenario editor (that really is a sad joke), I'd spend it doing other, more important, things. And the popularity of LnL and ASL should certainly tell you that encouraging these kinds of options and an aftermarket in new scenarios is a huge factor in their success.

If nothing changes, I'll probably play it a few more times and then never play it again. I certainly won't buy another title until I see those change.

< Message edited by jkantor -- 3/14/2014 3:57:43 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/14/2014 3:15:00 AM   
jonj01

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 2/21/2014
Status: offline 		The scenario editor works fine. You want to change turn #'s. Load the scenario map....hit the tab button...go to the top left hand area of screen...hit the "turn number" button and change the turn numbers.

You want to change the OOB...load the scenario map(Cntl-L)...hit the f2 key...use the "a" key to change nationality and the "z" key to change the unit, right click on the hex you want the unit to go.

It is pretty darn easy. I agree the maps are small...but there is a whole LOS thing going on..and with impulses you cant just hit "finish turn" and go have coffee while the AI takes 15 minutes to do its turn like other mega maps like the one in WitE and the Panzer Campaign series. To make it flow the map cannot be huge. I have learned a bunch from trying to design my own scenario and the more I learn...the more I like this game.

I disagree with you. And I have bitched up a storm on this forum about a whole bunch of things that I didn't like about this game. Unless, you want to play the extremely gamey Conflict of Heros..or the totally out of date Steel Panthers...this is the only real squad level Igougo or wego board game thats made transition to the computer, this is the best game offered.

You can choose not to play...but if you like ASL or other tactical war games, I think you will be making a mistake.

(in reply to jkantor)
Post #: 2
RE: This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/14/2014 3:40:50 AM   
jkantor


Posts: 4
Joined: 1/4/2002
Status: offline 		I love the system in general, and I think the implementation of it is great, but the scenario editor is a joke, as is the flawed concept behind the campaign system. I've been a programmer - and a technical writer - and a software tester - and a teacher. As a teacher I would give the scenario editor a D - it works, but no one should have to suffer through it. (And I don't think you need larger maps - just make it easier to modify the scenarios to try out different options.)

But the main thing is that the scenario editor and campaign implementation show a complete lack of understanding of the market for this game. I'll play it until I run out of decent scenarios - which, unfortunately, won't be long.

(in reply to jonj01)
Post #: 3
RE: This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/14/2014 5:47:05 AM   
tyrion22

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 5/9/2012
Status: offline 		I don't think your criticism is fair. The board game has fixed scenarios as well (as do most other computer games, I think), it's just that's it's easier to do whatever you want with a board game. Besides, you don't always need to, because many people (like me) don't get to play the board games they have to death.

All that being said, I think scenarios with fixed OOB in general has limited replayability, and that's more of a problem in computer games, because they get played so much. Force selection scenarios would be awesome for multiplayer. Otherwise, we're going to need new official or user generated scenarios at some point to keep the game alive.

< Message edited by oivind22 -- 3/14/2014 6:53:27 AM >

(in reply to jkantor)
Post #: 4
RE: This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/14/2014 8:11:02 AM   
laska2k8


Posts: 556
Joined: 11/18/2005
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I think that the subject thread is somewhat misleading, the right one should be 'This is not the game I'm looking for'. Because I think that there are a lot people are quite happy of this product just reading some of posts in this forum.

I agree with you that the editor is limited and the gameplay lack of replayability. But I want to tell you that now I almost finished to draw two new maps from SL and I'll be ready to create a good amount of scenarios based on those maps.

With the editor you can really change anything, the number of turns, adding an removing units, events and nations and so on.

I'm a programmer, project manager and DBA in IT team (15 skilled men), and like you I can judge what is 'user friendly' or not, well programmed or not. This editor is mainly a internal tools used by programmer(s) to make scenarios, it's not easy use it but it does the dirty job.

This is a boardgame translation, I never played the original so I can't tell if it accomplished the mission.

All that I can say is that for now I stopped playing the game because I totally involved on map and scenario creation (with fun) and I want to go back to play again.

< Message edited by laska2k4 -- 3/14/2014 9:11:54 AM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to jkantor)
Post #: 5
RE: This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/14/2014 9:26:07 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		The editor certainly needs to be more friendly. And why no manual????

_____________________________


(in reply to laska2k8)
Post #: 6
RE: This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/14/2014 11:02:30 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		I've got some issues with the game system, but probably the main reason I've stopped playing is that all of the maps are so small (8x10 hexes?), and there is no easy way to create my own scenarios with bigger/different forces.

Maybe there's some reason this game system won't scale well, dunno, but I'd be much more interested if I could more easily create my own scenarios and maps. Perhaps not feasible/realistic...

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 7
RE: This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/14/2014 12:09:16 PM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I've got some issues with the game system, but probably the main reason I've stopped playing is that all of the maps are so small (8x10 hexes?), and there is no easy way to create my own scenarios with bigger/different forces.

Maybe there's some reason this game system won't scale well, dunno, but I'd be much more interested if I could more easily create my own scenarios and maps. Perhaps not feasible/realistic...


Just to be clear, a single map panel is 8 hexes high x 15 hexes wide. (This is exactly the same as the board game map panels.) And not all scenarios are on just one map panel. And the editor lets you combine up to 3 map panels wide by 3 map panels high.
As a comparison, ASL map panels are 10 hexes high by 32 hexes wide, so pretty much equal to 2 HoS map panels.




_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 8
RE: This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/14/2014 1:00:26 PM   
z1812


Posts: 1796
Joined: 9/1/2004
Status: offline 		As I have asked many times, for those that are not up to decoding the mysteries of the Editor Documentation, give us a Tutorial.

The game will be more popular and players will provide content. What's the problem with that?

(in reply to jkantor)
Post #: 9
RE: This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/14/2014 1:17:31 PM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: z1812

As I have asked many times, for those that are not up to decoding the mysteries of the Editor Documentation, give us a Tutorial.

The game will be more popular and players will provide content. What's the problem with that?


There's no problem with that other than it would take a great deal of time to create a tutorial... Tom and Mark are very busy... that leaves it the community.... who's time I can not guess on.

_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

(in reply to z1812)
Post #: 10
RE: This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/14/2014 3:02:39 PM   
fran52


Posts: 598
Joined: 6/4/2012
From: Italy
Status: offline
quote:

As a comparison, ASL map panels are 10 hexes high by 32 hexes wide, so pretty much equal to 2 HoS map panels.

I'm preparing 2 ASL map scenario and to do this i must use all the 6 panel.

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 11
RE: This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/14/2014 4:31:51 PM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I've got some issues with the game system, but probably the main reason I've stopped playing is that all of the maps are so small (8x10 hexes?), and there is no easy way to create my own scenarios with bigger/different forces.

Maybe there's some reason this game system won't scale well, dunno, but I'd be much more interested if I could more easily create my own scenarios and maps. Perhaps not feasible/realistic...


+1 to this

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 12
RE: This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/14/2014 5:24:58 PM   
z1812


Posts: 1796
Joined: 9/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Barthheart


quote:

ORIGINAL: z1812

As I have asked many times, for those that are not up to decoding the mysteries of the Editor Documentation, give us a Tutorial.

The game will be more popular and players will provide content. What's the problem with that?


There's no problem with that other than it would take a great deal of time to create a tutorial... Tom and Mark are very busy... that leaves it the community.... who's time I can not guess on.


Thank you for your answer but I would prefer to hear about this from Tom or Mark.

I also disagree that a simple tutorial would consume so much time against what it would achieve. If I could understand the documentation better I would write one myself.

It wouldn''t even need to be done in one session. A closed sticky could be made and 1 topic could be offered a week.

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 13
RE: This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/14/2014 10:52:07 PM   
Dorb


Posts: 371
Joined: 10/8/2013
From: Ohio
Status: offline 		Thread title reminds me of a line from a movie, "These are not the droids you're looking for"

(in reply to z1812)
Post #: 14
RE: This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/15/2014 3:17:26 AM   
Gizuria


Posts: 199
Joined: 4/6/2012
Status: offline 		I don't think anyone should underestimate the importance of a reasonably easy-to-use scenario editor to the long-term life span of any game like this. Battlefront's CM series, both CMx1 and CMx2, shipped with a sophisticated and fairly easy to use scenario editor and there have been more scenarios and campaigns created by the community throughout the game's entire history than anyone could play. CM continues to grow and develop 15+ years after the release of CMBO probably due to the creativity of their community.

Both LnL and CoH shipped with scenario editors that have insufficient documentation to make scenario creation reasonably easy for the potential scenario designer.(I'd also say the same is true of 'Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm' but the guys there really seem to care about releasing the potential of the community) As a consequence, the CoH computer game, which is much older than LnL, just doesn't have a small community of scenario designers making interesting and challenging missions for the rest to play and it appears to be withering on the vine. I hope I'm wrong on that last point as I like CoH too.

I think any investment of time in making the scenario editor more accessible is well justified by the volume of content that the community will deliver.

< Message edited by Fascist Dog -- 3/15/2014 4:18:12 AM >

(in reply to Dorb)
Post #: 15
RE: This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/15/2014 3:21:15 AM   
jonj01

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 2/21/2014
Status: offline 		The scenario editor is not that hard to use. Provided you use the maps provided. Theres a editor manual...which helps some. But I've spent about 30 hours over the last two weeks screwing around with the editor..

IT WORKS!!!

I started with the editor when I didn't like some of the campaign scenarios(basically I didn't like, not being able to deploy my forces) so I changed that in a few scenarios...everything else followed. Right now I'm testing a scenario that uses a map 25x24 and has at least a battalion on each side..actually quite a bit more. Despite the impulse system you can play a battalion level force against the AI, and really most of the time is spent balancing the scenario not with screwing with the editor.

You posters that claim you have extensive computer experience and dont want to learn the editor..sorry....I would say something...but my mom told me to never say anything that is not nice.

I should have the scenario out in a couple of days...you want a lot of units...this scenario has it...you want something hard ..this scenario has it.

People are working to make this game better...that Italian dude Laska is actually creating new maps...installing polygons and all (I tried this for about 1 hour and it is a royal pain in the neck).

You know how many user created scenarios there are for Steel Panthers??? Over a thousand...and that system is crap compared to this one.

Be positive guys and give it some time...this system is going to really take off.

(in reply to Dorb)
Post #: 16
RE: This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/15/2014 3:47:33 AM   
Tom Proudfoot


Posts: 1357
Joined: 4/25/2000
From: Alameda, CA
Status: offline 		The scenario editor is certainly in need of improvement. I was basically agitating to not even have it available to the players until it looked all purty, but we eventually decided together that it was better to have something, however hideous, for people to play with rather than nothing at all at release. So you get 'what we were using', plus my hastily-scribbled overview, but hopefully it can be fixed up bit by bit between more 'important' things. (Not that an editor isn't important but, bugs are more important!)

There are some improvements to the editor already in for 1.08 - no more having to fuss with rotating the map, and better support for putting all your goofy edited .csvs in a different directory. I'm hoping to get a little block of time to leave the world of function keys and put in some buttons and lists for terrain & units but we shall see.

On having an editor tutorial, I'm not even sure where to begin. Been using the thing for so long I'm not sure where you're getting stuck.

(in reply to jonj01)
Post #: 17
RE: This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/15/2014 4:47:44 AM   
z1812


Posts: 1796
Joined: 9/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Proudfoot

On having an editor tutorial, I'm not even sure where to begin. Been using the thing for so long I'm not sure where you're getting stuck.



Perhaps something really easy to start:

1. How to import an existing map with the terrain effects all working.

2. How to place units on the Board.

3. How to place victory locations

4. How to do a simple A.I. arrangement.

5. How to arrange victory conditions

This could be followed in the future with using artillery and other off-board support. etc.

(in reply to Tom Proudfoot)
Post #: 18
RE: This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/15/2014 4:55:36 AM   
z1812


Posts: 1796
Joined: 9/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jonj01
You posters that claim you have extensive computer experience and dont want to learn the editor..sorry....I would say something...but my mom told me to never say anything that is not nice.


If someone claimed extensive computer experience it wasn't me. Nor do I remember any other poster doing so.

No one said they did not want to learn the editor. They simply pointed out that for them it was difficult.

jonj01 it's great that you understand the editor documentation but many do not and a simple tutorial would help.


(in reply to jonj01)
Post #: 19
RE: This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/15/2014 9:50:14 AM   
jonj01

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 2/21/2014
Status: offline 		My comment was directed more at the OP, anyway I started a map tutorial

. Extremely basic. just go to this web address:

http://youtu.be/7kcUKEuSDVQ

Sorry this forum doesn't allow hyperlinks...i guess.

I'll try to make some more over the next few days.

(in reply to z1812)
Post #: 20
RE: This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/15/2014 11:51:08 AM   
vsadek


Posts: 125
Joined: 1/3/2010
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Actually, it does. You have to use the link option in editor and insert the URL there.

http://youtu.be/7kcUKEuSDVQ






Attachment (1)

(in reply to jonj01)
Post #: 21
RE: This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/15/2014 12:05:49 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		jonj01, I hope you post your scenario, when complete, I'd be interested in taking a look.

(in reply to vsadek)
Post #: 22
RE: This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/15/2014 1:37:47 PM   
z1812


Posts: 1796
Joined: 9/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jonj01

My comment was directed more at the OP, anyway I started a map tutorial

. Extremely basic. just go to this web address:

http://youtu.be/7kcUKEuSDVQ

Sorry this forum doesn't allow hyperlinks...i guess.

I'll try to make some more over the next few days.



Thank you! Thank you! That was perfect. Clear simple and very well presented. I watched it this morning and I am hoping to make the map tonight or tomorrow. I will make the same map so I can follow what you do in the future. Thanks again.

(in reply to jonj01)
Post #: 23
RE: This is not the game you are looking for - yet - 3/16/2014 5:20:29 PM   
Ichili

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 6/11/2007
From: United States
Status: offline 		Regarding the campaign, Russians lost almost every battle on the way to Stalingrad, and once within the city, they were forced to retreat gradually to the Volga. But those unsuccessful confrontations did not keep them from fighting, winning the battle and subsequently the war.
In order to be roughly historical, the campaign system should reflect this. Instead, if as Russian I don't get a victory on every battle by playing over and over until I solve what jkantor called a "fixed puzzle", I will never get to the next one. One possible solution to this issue would be to make all the campaign battles available as single scenarios, as was done in COH. Another would be to let us play the next battle, but with increased odds against us. This way we will all get to play the whole game.

(in reply to jkantor)
Post #: 24
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