Inflight refueling

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Inflight refueling

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Command: Modern Operations series >> Inflight refueling

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Inflight refueling - 12/5/2013 10:29:07 PM

Dannyp19

Posts: 186
Joined: 10/20/2013
Status: offline

OK. Now that it seems the refueling doctrine is working properly (thanks guys) What is the best way to manage refueling? Im still losing tankers and aircraft when refueling. Its obvious the AI doesn't manage the process. Is there a simple way or do I need to do a spreadsheet?
How many aircraft can a tanker refuel?
At what point do you need to send tanker RTB?

Lets say I have 8 strike aircraft, they will need a fill-up to reach the strike point and a fill-up to get home. What is the best way to do this.

Post #: 1

RE: Inflight refueling - 12/5/2013 10:45:50 PM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline

Danny if you can post some save games we can determine what exactly is going wrong.

In general I set up a couple of tanker orbits using support missions. How are you doing it?

Mike

_____________________________

(in reply to Dannyp19)

Post #: 2

RE: Inflight refueling - 12/6/2013 9:28:24 AM

smudge56

Posts: 667
Joined: 1/17/2009
From: UK
Status: offline

I use the 1/3 rule is that ok?

(in reply to mikmykWS)

Post #: 3

RE: Inflight refueling - 12/7/2013 6:29:50 AM

Dannyp19

Posts: 186
Joined: 10/20/2013
Status: offline

I use support missions also. I feel like Im mismanaging it. I dont think its a bug.

When does an aircraft decide to refuel? At bingo relative to tanker position or home base?

(in reply to smudge56)

Post #: 4

RE: Inflight refueling - 12/7/2013 7:55:26 AM

Dimitris

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline

If a tanker is airborne, aircraft that can refuel from it (and have their doctrine option "use refuel" set to YES) will base their bingo calculations on it and not their home base.

_____________________________

Facebook
Twitter

(in reply to Dannyp19)

Post #: 5

RE: Inflight refueling - 12/7/2013 10:04:02 AM

Dobey455

Posts: 445
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

If a tanker is airborne, aircraft that can refuel from it (and have their doctrine option "use refuel" set to YES) will base their bingo calculations on it and not their home base.

Thanks for that info.

How are multiple tankers handled?
If I have a large number of planes needing to refuel and multiple tankers on a refueling mission will the aircraft needing fuel take it from all of the tankers equally, or will they suck one dry then move onto the next one?

Im asking this mainly thinking of the sammler tankers such as the S-3 viking or Buddy tankers which barely have enough fuel as an individual tanker to fully fuel more than one fighter so would need to be used in groups.

(in reply to Dimitris)

Post #: 6

RE: Inflight refueling - 12/7/2013 10:48:39 AM

Dimitris

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline

They load-balance them if possible. (Which is why you sometimes see thirsty aircraft go to a tanker farther out when another one is nearby). If you've seen some "Why aren't my planes just refuelling from the nearest tanker?" questions posted here, this is why.

_____________________________

Facebook
Twitter

(in reply to Dobey455)

Post #: 7

RE: Inflight refueling - 12/7/2013 10:32:12 PM

Dannyp19

Posts: 186
Joined: 10/20/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

If a tanker is airborne, aircraft that can refuel from it (and have their doctrine option "use refuel" set to YES) will base their bingo calculations on it and not their home base.

Airborne period? What if tanker is RTB?

Airborne refueling has a lot of pesky details to take into account. Almost like trying to do an STOT.

I read an article that was describing the difficulty in tanker assets during Operation Enduring Freedom. Its a delicate balance that I dont think Command is taking into account AI wise. (Just my opinion there, y'all are doing a great job with this game)

My wife has a "girls night out" tonight. So I'll be able to get a lot of time tonight to work this out and test a few refueling operations.

(in reply to Dimitris)

Post #: 8

RE: Inflight refueling - 12/8/2013 7:34:03 AM

Dimitris

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline

Tankers on RTB are not taken into account when doing the bingo calcs.

Tanker management in RL is a full-time job on its own. Most air arms handle it very conservatively and simply throw more tankers on the job than what the nominal calcs say they will need, simply because so many things can go wrong. (And even then, not a few aircraft do land on divert airfields or ditch). Allocating "just enough" tankers on an op is generally an invitation to trouble - both in RL and in Command

_____________________________

Facebook
Twitter

(in reply to Dannyp19)

Post #: 9

RE: Inflight refueling - 2/25/2014 12:10:39 AM

mikeCK

Posts: 565
Joined: 5/20/2008
Status: offline

How do I force a plane to refuel using a nearby tanker instead of returning to the carrier? I tried issuing the command "refuel" and it's mission changed to "maneuvering to refuel" and it's doctrine is set to "air refuel":yes

Yet the plane just flew right by the tanker on its way to the carrier. I needed them to stay airborne!

(in reply to Dimitris)

Post #: 10

RE: Inflight refueling - 3/14/2014 10:24:41 PM

mikeCK

Posts: 565
Joined: 5/20/2008
Status: offline

I'm going to bump (necro) this thread because I still don't know how to do this: see above if you can help

(in reply to mikeCK)

Post #: 11

RE: Inflight refueling - 3/14/2014 10:59:03 PM

Mini_Von

Posts: 134
Joined: 12/17/2013
Status: offline

I had a similar problem.
I can't post links yet, so here is the end of the link.

forums/tm.asp?m=3563439

My post is titled "[B490] Air Refueling Problem" in the Tech Forum.

< Message edited by Mini_Von -- 3/15/2014 12:03:56 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to mikeCK)

Post #: 12

RE: Inflight refueling - 3/15/2014 1:10:25 AM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeCK

How do I force a plane to refuel using a nearby tanker instead of returning to the carrier? I tried issuing the command "refuel" and it's mission changed to "maneuvering to refuel" and it's doctrine is set to "air refuel":yes

Yet the plane just flew right by the tanker on its way to the carrier. I needed them to stay airborne!

Hi Mike

If you right click the unit there is a refuel if possible option you can select.

In this case though wondering if you had the right tanker refueling like mix. Remember what the tanker and target aircraft were?

Mike

_____________________________

(in reply to mikeCK)

Post #: 13

RE: Inflight refueling - 3/15/2014 2:17:34 AM

mikeCK

Posts: 565
Joined: 5/20/2008
Status: offline

Yes, I was trying to refuel F-14's and F-18s from a KA-6b code "CHEVRON"
I have "use refuel" (or whatever it is) set to "yes" in the doctrine but my planes flew right past the tanker and on back home. I had hit "refuel (if possible)....

(in reply to mikmykWS)

Post #: 14

RE: Inflight refueling - 3/15/2014 8:45:28 AM

ComDev

Posts: 5735
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline

Hm think we also need to add Tanker planning to the strike mission editor... although that will take some time to do hehe.

I'm quite baffled by the fact that the more stuff we add to the sim, the more real-life issues we run into.

To speed things up free to submitt pseudo code, design documentation, technical/operational documentation on tanker ops, etc

Thanks!

< Message edited by emsoy -- 3/15/2014 9:49:10 AM >

_____________________________

Developer "Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations" project!

(in reply to mikeCK)

Post #: 15

RE: Inflight refueling - 3/15/2014 1:50:29 PM

Dannyp19

Posts: 186
Joined: 10/20/2013
Status: offline

Hey Emsoy!

Found this http://www.military-airplanner.com/

Dont know if this is available for civilian use or not. Looked interesting though.

(in reply to ComDev)

Post #: 16

RE: Inflight refueling - 3/15/2014 2:09:33 PM

guanotwozero

Posts: 651
Joined: 12/27/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: emsoy

Hm think we also need to add Tanker planning to the strike mission editor... although that will take some time to do hehe.

I'm quite baffled by the fact that the more stuff we add to the sim, the more real-life issues we run into.

To speed things up free to submitt pseudo code, design documentation, technical/operational documentation on tanker ops, etc

Thanks!

Ah, it's the fractal zoom effect - the more detail you cover, the more uncovered detail you can see. Common problem with software, especially for something that aspires to as much realism as possible. It just means you have to draw limits somewhere.

Happy to contribute ideas from concepts to algorithms, tanker ops or anything else, though we'll probably need a bit of guidance from you and the rest of the dev team to help steer progress in the right direction.

First thing I'd suggest is to create a new forum section for this (Dev Ideas or something), as there will likely be many threads involved.

< Message edited by guanotwozero -- 3/15/2014 3:10:15 PM >

(in reply to ComDev)

Post #: 17

RE: Inflight refueling - 3/15/2014 4:48:47 PM

mikeCK

Posts: 565
Joined: 5/20/2008
Status: offline

Maybe an option when you right click on a plane (group) that says "use nearest airborne refueler"

couldn't you just double check to see if "refuel if possible" forces the plane to refuel at the closest refueling point whether that's a carrier or an airborne refueling? usually will be the former.

< Message edited by mikeCK -- 3/15/2014 5:54:16 PM >

(in reply to guanotwozero)

Post #: 18

RE: Inflight refueling - 3/15/2014 10:40:50 PM

NickD

Posts: 163
Joined: 2/14/2014
Status: offline

Out of interest, has anyone attempted to replicate the epic tanker operations which the RAF used during the Operation Black Buck Vulcan bomber raids on the Falklands? That would be a test for the game's in flight refuelling functionality! (even the veteran RAF tanker staff had trouble working out how to pull this off).

(in reply to mikeCK)

Post #: 19

RE: Inflight refueling - 3/15/2014 11:19:53 PM

Maromak

Posts: 1030
Joined: 12/26/2007
From: Australia
Status: offline

Flankerk has a Black Buck scenario on the way.

_____________________________

Certa Cito

(in reply to NickD)

Post #: 20

RE: Inflight refueling - 3/16/2014 12:27:45 AM

Beagle

Posts: 12
Joined: 12/14/2013
Status: offline

Hi Guys,

My concept is the use of a "refuelling base" for aircraft, similar in concept to the home base for aircraft. The default refuelling base would be the home base. Then players can set up a virtual refuelling base that is serviced by tankers via the current mission editor as a "tanker" mission. Players can then select this refuelling base in the same way they select the home base and all bingo calcs will be based on this point. This should be similar to the coding you use now, to help reduce the effort required in the short term.

To make it more advanced in the future you could have it calculate the total rate of fuel consumption of aircraft assigned to the refuelling base, and then give an indication if more tankers need to be assigned or predict when assigned aircraft need to be refuelled by showing a future queue of when aircraft are likely to need refuelling.

Thoughts?

(in reply to Maromak)

Post #: 21

RE: Inflight refueling - 3/20/2014 3:03:31 AM

ComDev

Posts: 5735
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline

Thats a ver interesting idea, have added it to our notes. Thanks!

_____________________________

Developer "Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations" project!

(in reply to Beagle)

Post #: 22

RE: Inflight refueling - 3/20/2014 11:48:29 AM

DeltaIV

Posts: 161
Joined: 3/3/2014
From: EUCCP
Status: offline

I'm currently also battling with tanker problems in my scenario.

Setup is following:
- Norwegian airforce is trying attack land targets that are on the very edge of combat radius of their F16s
- NATO (which is actually neutral side in my scenario, but with friendly posture towards Norway) operates tanker aircraft halfway between their airbase and intended targets (KC135R)
- F16s cannot reach their targets and return without refueling, but if they refuel, they can strike the targets and return to their home base safely

So my questions are:
1. Can the aircraft refuel from other side's tankers if their posture is friendly ?
2. Can i somehow force the aircraft to refuel when they're on their way to the objective (they are not bingo yet)?

(in reply to ComDev)

Post #: 23

RE: Inflight refueling - 3/20/2014 12:58:41 PM

Primarchx

Posts: 3102
Joined: 1/20/2013
Status: offline

I like the 'tanking base' idea, so that I can explicitly connect aircraft to a tanker mission.

I'd also like to see a method that directs an aircraft to refuel immediately. The Refuel (if possible) command doesn't do this unless the a/c is apparently at some unknown-to-me fuel state. I've had flights fly right by a tanker orbit and not refuel, while all the while I'm directing them to.

This becomes a problem on long-range strikes where you want to refuel your aircraft BEFORE they head to their targets but they haven't hit their secret, magic refuel-ready state yet. Instead they head in and somewhere near the target suddenly have to refuel or RTB Bingo.

Perhaps this problem has been fixed in the recent build, but it's one that frustrates me frequently.

(in reply to DeltaIV)

Post #: 24

RE: Inflight refueling - 3/20/2014 1:56:21 PM

Dannyp19

Posts: 186
Joined: 10/20/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

I like the 'tanking base' idea, so that I can explicitly connect aircraft to a tanker mission.

I'd also like to see a method that directs an aircraft to refuel immediately. The Refuel (if possible) command doesn't do this unless the a/c is apparently at some unknown-to-me fuel state. I've had flights fly right by a tanker orbit and not refuel, while all the while I'm directing them to.

This becomes a problem on long-range strikes where you want to refuel your aircraft BEFORE they head to their targets but they haven't hit their secret, magic refuel-ready state yet. Instead they head in and somewhere near the target suddenly have to refuel or RTB Bingo.

Perhaps this problem has been fixed in the recent build, but it's one that frustrates me frequently.

I like the "tanker base" idea also.

Ive found that (most of the time) the tankers have to be half way between the AC's base and the destination for them to top off. Also If they are stubborn about refueling I have to make sure there unassigned. Sometimes when they do obey they will break from plotted course, top off, and head right back to the point of the plot where they broke off to refuel.

Ive posted my way of tanking on this thread here. Its worked for me pretty good.http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3567257

(in reply to Primarchx)

Post #: 25

RE: Inflight refueling - 3/21/2014 12:20:36 AM

mikeCK

Posts: 565
Joined: 5/20/2008
Status: offline

Home base would be best as long as it didn't try to rearm (when Winchester) at the tanker

(in reply to Dannyp19)

Post #: 26